F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[PanterroR]

[image no longer available]IA to monitor McLaren treatment of Alonso
Max Mosley keen to protect the defending champion




Appearances aside, the effects of the espionage scandal and its fallout continue to be felt on the scene of the Belgian Grand Prix.

After disagreeing in the media on Saturday, McLaren boss Ron Dennis and FIA President Max Mosley later stood in front of the team's shining 'Brand Centre' and shook hands for the benefit of photographers.

But after headlines suggested that Mosley continues to question Dennis' integrity and honesty regarding key elements of the disclosure of the new email evidence, it now emerges that F1's governing body is going to keep a close eye on McLaren at least for the balance of the season.

Mosley praised Fernando Alonso on Saturday for his role in shedding light on the extent of knowledge of Ferrari's secrets within the team.

But the FIA President says he now fears for possible retribution against the Spaniard from within his ranks, after Alonso's evidence directly led to the record $100m fine and exclusion from the constructors' world championship.

"If they do anything wrong against Alonso, they will have to answer to us in Paris and we will do what is necessary," Mosley is quoted as saying by the Italian daily La Gazzetta dello Sport.

The Briton said he fully supported Alonso's actions, in direct contrast with some sections of some that have accused him of maliciously attempting to blackmail his bosses.

"He was the only one on his team who did the right thing," Mosley said. "With Alonso's emails we obtained certainty (about the case)," he added.

Source: http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070916002309.shtml

 

[Bartek S.]

Mosley questions Dennis' integrity

FIA president Max Mosley has questioned McLaren boss Ron Dennis' personal integrity in the spy scandal.
Following a heated exchange with Fernando Alonso on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, the reigning world champion threatened to go to the FIA with information in his possession.

Dennis informed Alonso to present his evidence to the FIA, before deciding to relate events to Mosley via a telephone call himself.
Looking back on the conversation, Mosley said: "Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation'.
"So I said: 'What did you say (to him) Ron?' and he replied: 'go on and hand it over'.
"I said: 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing', and then Ron said: 'But there isn't any information'.
"So I said: 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out. I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you'."

Mosley maintains he believed Dennis at the time, adding: "Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years. It's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity'. You believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS over a three-month period between (Mike) Coughlan and (Nigel) Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious.
"At which point I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history."

Dennis insists he told the truth as he saw it at the time, with the 60-year-old replying: "I'm a little surprised by what Max said.
"At the time I made those answers I told the complete truth.
"At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.
"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me, when I heard, as anyone else.
"As I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA.
"I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody.
"I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point."

There is not much love lost between Mosley and Dennis, so it is no great surprise to hear the former reject the latter's claims that the punishment handed down at the spy scandal hearing does not fit the crime.
The Council stripped McLaren of all their constructors' points for this season and ordered them to pay a record-breaking
100million US (£49.2million) fine.

Earlier today Dennis insisted his team could take "the hit", but that it was "disproportionate to the reality of the situation".
However, Mosley insisted: "It is absurd to say it is unfair or disproportionate. It is a very modest penalty indeed.
"They are extremely lucky we didn't quite simply say: you have polluted the championship in 2007, you have probably polluted it in 2008 because we have no way of knowing what information you are using in your 2007 and 2008 cars, so you had better stay out of the championship until 2009 if you are still around, so that way we know it is completely fair.
"We didn't do that, and when history looks back at this maybe that is what we are reproached with - not with doing too much, but with maybe doing too little."
Sporting Life / Eurosport

 

[Sunny]

Mosley said: "Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation'.
"So I said: 'What did you say (to him) Ron?' and he replied: 'go on and hand it over'.
"I said: 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing', and then Ron said: 'But there isn't any information'.
"So I said: 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out. I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you'."

From that exchange above, it really looks like Ron had no idea about the emails and he didn't believe they really existed even after Alonso went to him.

As for Alonso, it really depends on what his motivation was to go to FIA: Did he blackmail the team for an unfair advantage before going to FIA or did he go cause of his conscience.

 

[Bartek S.]

Mosley: McLaren boys were lucky

Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso would have been thrown out of this year's Formula One world championship along with McLaren if FIA president Max Mosley had got his way.

Their team was thrown out of the constructors' championship and fined $100 million by the FIA World Motorsport Council after it was revealed that they knowingly possessed confidential information leaked to the team's designer Mike Coughlan by Ferrari's former technical manager Nigel Stepney.
But, following the unearthing of emails that proved world champion Alonso knew about the information, Mosley, along with a minority of others at the WMSC meeting, believed the drivers too should have been punished.
Their reasons were that it could not be gauged how much Hamilton and Alonso, who lie first and second in the points, 18 and 15 ahead of Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen, gained from having had the information in their possession.
"I would have taken all the points away from Hamilton and Alonso on the grounds that there is a suspicion they had an advantage that they should not have had," Mosley told BBC Radio 5Live.
"A significant majority on the council thought they should keep their points, about five (mostly lawyers) thought all the points should go.
"I'm slightly disappointed because when history comes to be written and all the emotions are gone they will say, 'Hang on a minute, we just don't know what happened and would Raikkonen or Massa have won had it not been for this information?'"
Jamie O'Leary / Eurosport

 

[bmer]

Alonso has confidence in McLaren​

By Andrew Benson
at Spa-Francorchamps


Fernando Alonso does not think McLaren will help team-mate Lewis Hamilton win the world championship at his expense.


Alonso's future at the team is in doubt after it emerged he threatened to leak information about Formula One's spy scandal to governing body the FIA.

FIA president Max Mosley says he will look to sanction any attempt by McLaren to impede the 25-year-old Spaniard.

But the double world champion insists he is happy and believes the team will not deliberately undermine him.

"They always said they would do the best they can to help both drivers win races and the championship," said Alonso, who currently trails Britain's Hamilton by three points with four races remaining.

Alonso's relationship with team boss Ron Dennis is under severe strain as a result of a bust-up on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix.

That was the day after the controversial qualifying session that led to Alonso being dumped from pole to sixth on the grid after being found guilty of deliberately blocking Hamilton.

During the argument, the reigning world champion disclosed he had email evidence in the spy scandal that could potentially prove damaging to the team.

It is reported Alonso threatened to use such information unless he was granted number one driver status ahead of Hamilton.

Dennis is said to have called his bluff, telling Alonso to go ahead, at which point, it is claimed, Dennis then phoned Mosley himself, effectively handing his team in to the FIA.

In a media briefing on Saturday morning, Dennis sought to play down the ramifications of the row in Hungary.

He said Alonso had been in an "emotional" state during their conversation but soon calmed down.

"Half an hour later, Fernando's manager came back and said he was sorry, that Fernando had been angry and wanted to retract everything he'd said and that it was a load of old rubbish," said Dennis.

"So I picked up the phone again and called the FIA to keep them up to date."

Dennis added that Alonso himself came to see him after the race and they agreed to put the whole episode behind them.

"My job is to win the world championship," said Dennis.

"It's not for people to love and hug me. If I have difficult relationships with people, I have difficult relationships.

"You don't take your guns out and shoot them every which way. We are here to win races.

"I want to have positive relationships with my drivers, but it's difficult sometimes.

"But I am not going to say things that are detrimental to the interests of this team.

"I will not disclose the exact nature of the conversation I had with Fernando. I moved on with the intention of trying to win races, and that is what I intend to still do."

Alonso has refused to comment about the row in Hungary.

Asked about it on Saturday after qualifying third behind the Ferraris, he said: "Everybody speaks, everybody speculates, and we are here racing. We first talk about racing.

"If Ron said something it is because he wanted [to]. If Max said something it is because he wanted [to]. I am a racing driver and I will answer questions about driving."

Asked if he thought McLaren would deliberately attempt to damage Alonso's chances of winning the title, Mosley said: "I hope not.

"If McLaren try to do something against one of their drivers, we will call them back to Paris."

Alonso's manager has already insisted Alonso intended to stay at McLaren next season despite claims his relationship with the team had broken down so badly as to become untenable.

"We have an agreement. We are not negotiating with anybody and our plan is to continue here," Luis Garcia told BBC Sport.

Asked if the Spaniard was happy to honour his three-year deal, Garcia added: "He has to."


Source: BBC Sport

 

[chonkoa]

From that exchange above, it really looks like Ron had no idea about the emails and he didn't believe they really existed even after Alonso went to him.

As for Alonso, it really depends on what his motivation was to go to FIA: Did he blackmail the team for an unfair advantage before going to FIA or did he go cause of his conscience.

In as much as I would like believe that, I am afraid that is not so- Ron was aware of the entire saga.

With regards to Alonso, I believe it is to even things out with the team- it has absolutely nothing to do with conscience.
If it has anything to do with conscience, then he should resigned from the rest of the 2007 season.

 

[chonkoa]

None of you guys have read the report have you or my posts...

It says that Fernando and Pedro turned their emails in to FIA themselves...Ron isn't the one who did this. So to keep on going about how Fernando was pressuring Ron and then Ron gave FIA the info is just wrong.

I'm not saying that Alonso isn't a little bitch but the fact is him and pedro turned in the emails and gave explanations themselves...Jeez read the damn report and not rumors from websited.

Some people just want to believe Mr Integrity.

 

[Remy Zero]

Mosley : Dennis Lied

FIA President Max Mosley has accused McLaren team boss Ron Dennis of lying during the Formula 1 spying investigation. In an interview with ITV Mosley explained the sequence of events that led to the emergence of critical e-mail evidence.

Later, Ron Dennis confirmed that his Spanish driver Fernando Alonso approached him at the Hungarian Grand Prix saying he would leak damaging e-mails to the FIA.

Max Mosley explained: "In the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation'. So I said, 'What did you say Ron?'. He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over'.

"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing'. And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information'. So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'. And he replied, 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you'.

"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him. I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.

"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this. You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers (asking for their evidence), and the rest is history.''

Ron Dennis though insisted that he acted with total integrity throughout the whole affair. "I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth,'' Dennis said. "At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.

"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA. I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody. I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point.''

 

[Sunny]

Alonso has confidence in McLaren​

By Andrew Benson
at Spa-Francorchamps


Fernando Alonso does not think McLaren will help team-mate Lewis Hamilton win the world championship at his expense.


Alonso's future at the team is in doubt after it emerged he threatened to leak information about Formula One's spy scandal to governing body the FIA.

FIA president Max Mosley says he will look to sanction any attempt by McLaren to impede the 25-year-old Spaniard.

But the double world champion insists he is happy and believes the team will not deliberately undermine him.

"They always said they would do the best they can to help both drivers win races and the championship," said Alonso, who currently trails Britain's Hamilton by three points with four races remaining.

Alonso's relationship with team boss Ron Dennis is under severe strain as a result of a bust-up on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix.

That was the day after the controversial qualifying session that led to Alonso being dumped from pole to sixth on the grid after being found guilty of deliberately blocking Hamilton.

During the argument, the reigning world champion disclosed he had email evidence in the spy scandal that could potentially prove damaging to the team.

It is reported Alonso threatened to use such information unless he was granted number one driver status ahead of Hamilton.

Dennis is said to have called his bluff, telling Alonso to go ahead, at which point, it is claimed, Dennis then phoned Mosley himself, effectively handing his team in to the FIA.

In a media briefing on Saturday morning, Dennis sought to play down the ramifications of the row in Hungary.

He said Alonso had been in an "emotional" state during their conversation but soon calmed down.

"Half an hour later, Fernando's manager came back and said he was sorry, that Fernando had been angry and wanted to retract everything he'd said and that it was a load of old rubbish," said Dennis.

"So I picked up the phone again and called the FIA to keep them up to date."

Dennis added that Alonso himself came to see him after the race and they agreed to put the whole episode behind them.

"My job is to win the world championship," said Dennis.

"It's not for people to love and hug me. If I have difficult relationships with people, I have difficult relationships.

"You don't take your guns out and shoot them every which way. We are here to win races.

"I want to have positive relationships with my drivers, but it's difficult sometimes.

"But I am not going to say things that are detrimental to the interests of this team.

"I will not disclose the exact nature of the conversation I had with Fernando. I moved on with the intention of trying to win races, and that is what I intend to still do."

Alonso has refused to comment about the row in Hungary.

Asked about it on Saturday after qualifying third behind the Ferraris, he said: "Everybody speaks, everybody speculates, and we are here racing. We first talk about racing.

"If Ron said something it is because he wanted [to]. If Max said something it is because he wanted [to]. I am a racing driver and I will answer questions about driving."

Asked if he thought McLaren would deliberately attempt to damage Alonso's chances of winning the title, Mosley said: "I hope not.

"If McLaren try to do something against one of their drivers, we will call them back to Paris."

Alonso's manager has already insisted Alonso intended to stay at McLaren next season despite claims his relationship with the team had broken down so badly as to become untenable.

"We have an agreement. We are not negotiating with anybody and our plan is to continue here," Luis Garcia told BBC Sport.

Asked if the Spaniard was happy to honour his three-year deal, Garcia added: "He has to."


Source: BBC Sport

Thanks, I think that clears up some of the things that happened.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Interesting facts.

We refer to the e-mails exchanged by
Alonso, De la Rosa, Coughlan, Lowe and Stepney and by Ferrari.

page 4



....


Secondly – and this brings us to the major piece of evidence that has come to light since the last hearing – the e-mails disclosed by Pedro de la Rosa and Fernando Alonso show that, contrary to what you were told on the last occasion, the information which Coughlan was receiving from
Stepney was being shared within McLaren.
McLaren has tried very hard to suggest that the information being disclosed was limited to only the two drivers, that there was no wider
dissemination within McLaren, and that we have jumped to a series of inappropriate, unfounded conclusions.
We ask you to use your common sense, stand back, look at what the e-mails actually say and compare them with what the McLaren witnesses try to say to explain them. Ask yourselves, “Does that ring true?”

page 8

So while the press focuses on whistle blowers like Alonso, characters like Lowe and/or Whitmarsh are barely mentioned (by the british press; or the rest).


.....


“Mike, apart from the rear wing, I don’t think this is the whole story. Once the front floor compresses, when it makes contact with the ground, which is around the 200km per hour to full compression,, the drag reduces quite considerably, due to reduction of air beneath the car. At the same time, the turning vanes also move. The front floor is about 100 cm long, so it is quite an effective device, also as mentioned in my previous e-mail, as a mass damper, because it helps in this mode to control the arrow and keep the front tyre contact patch. Other areas we look at are rear stall, but this is difficult to control. Another solution has been found, which I’ll talk to you some other time. Regards, Nigel.”


page 7 and 8;
proof of the tip off, and that the Ferrari F2007 at Australia was
indeed unmistakably, without any doubt an illegal car.


...



When Alonso raised the existence of documentation on 5th August with Mr Dennis, obviously in the context of some dispute, he mentioned the matter to your President, but did he try to get to the bottom of it? Did he say, “If you have documents, I must have them, because I am under duty to the FIA to take them back to the World Motor Sport Council.” No, he did not. We
received this information only because the FIA wrote to the drivers, telling them that they were under duty to disclose. It was not been volunteered by McLaren. That tells you a great deal about the internal investigations carried out by McLaren and their enthusiasm to volunteer information.
We therefore say: look at the facts; don’t listen to the assertions. The facts are that this is information that FIA secured from the drivers. It did not result from an internal investigation by McLaren.
How does this fit in with the rest of the facts? According to Coughlan, we know that he spoke to Stepney on four occasions about the brake balance and was given a drawing, which he showed to Taylor. Mr Taylor seeks to suggest that this was nothing to him. An engineer of Mr Taylor’s
experience would instantly have known that he was being shown provided a significant improvement in functionality.

pp 10 and 11

another guy, Mr taylor.


...


If you turn to the statement of Mr Lewis, which we received yesterday, it says that: “In early April 2007” – the dates are important, bearing in mind the e-mails we have just seen – “Mike [Coughlan] asked me to begin work to design a quick-shift brake balance adjustment system, not a particularly
difficult task, as McLaren had used a quick-shift system before, in 2001 and 2002. My work mainly involved taking the knowledge that we already had about quick-shift systems and optimising it for use on the 2007 McLaren car”. He exhibits a document that we have not seen. He then confirms what Mr Lowe has said to you in a document we have not seen is correct. In particular, he states that, “For the purposes of the quick-shift project, I reported to Mike directly, without the involvement of my team leader, while Mike supervised the project. His involvement was no more than the general supervision and direction he gives to all drawing projects. For example, Mike
outlined the idea that I import that 2001-2002 design into the 2007 car. I looked at that previous design and brought it into a CAD scheme, with changes necessary for it to fit the 2007 car. Mike and I and Pat Frye reviewer this scheme and agreed the final details. I completed the detailed
design and component drawings, which Mike approved for manufacturing.”
Here is someone reporting directly to Mike Coughlan, working on a brake-balance system. At the same time, you have hard evidence that Coughlan is pestering Stepney for details of the Ferrari system and exchanging that information with at least De la Rosa at exactly that time. Yet you are being asked to accept that he did not contribute any ideas that he might have obtained from Ferrari to the development of the McLaren system. The McLaren system may be different; of course it is, for it was designed by different people.

p11

another name Pat Frye.

So now did Ron Dennis really had no knowledge of all this ?!
The same holds true for Lewis Hamilton.

 

[chonkoa]

Interesting facts.


Quote:
We refer to the e-mails exchanged by
Alonso, De la Rosa, Coughlan, Lowe and Stepney and by Ferrari.

page 4



....


Secondly – and this brings us to the major piece of evidence that has come to light since the last hearing – the e-mails disclosed by Pedro de la Rosa and Fernando Alonso show that, contrary to what you were told on the last occasion, the information which Coughlan was receiving from
Stepney was being shared within McLaren.
McLaren has tried very hard to suggest that the information being disclosed was limited to only the two drivers, that there was no wider
dissemination within McLaren, and that we have jumped to a series of inappropriate, unfounded conclusions.
We ask you to use your common sense, stand back, look at what the e-mails actually say and compare them with what the McLaren witnesses try to say to explain them. Ask yourselves, “Does that ring true?”

page 8

So while the press focuses on whistle blowers like Alonso, characters like Lowe and/or Whitmarsh are barely mentioned (by the british press; or the rest).


.....


“Mike, apart from the rear wing, I don’t think this is the whole story. Once the front floor compresses, when it makes contact with the ground, which is around the 200km per hour to full compression,, the drag reduces quite considerably, due to reduction of air beneath the car. At the same time, the turning vanes also move. The front floor is about 100 cm long, so it is quite an effective device, also as mentioned in my previous e-mail, as a mass damper, because it helps in this mode to control the arrow and keep the front tyre contact patch. Other areas we look at are rear stall, but this is difficult to control. Another solution has been found, which I’ll talk to you some other time. Regards, Nigel.”


page 7 and 8;
proof of the tip off, and that the Ferrari F2007 at Australia was
indeed unmistakably, without any doubt an illegal car.


...



When Alonso raised the existence of documentation on 5th August with Mr Dennis, obviously in the context of some dispute, he mentioned the matter to your President, but did he try to get to the bottom of it? Did he say, “If you have documents, I must have them, because I am under duty to the FIA to take them back to the World Motor Sport Council.” No, he did not. We
received this information only because the FIA wrote to the drivers, telling them that they were under duty to disclose. It was not been volunteered by McLaren. That tells you a great deal about the internal investigations carried out by McLaren and their enthusiasm to volunteer information.
We therefore say: look at the facts; don’t listen to the assertions. The facts are that this is information that FIA secured from the drivers. It did not result from an internal investigation by McLaren.
How does this fit in with the rest of the facts? According to Coughlan, we know that he spoke to Stepney on four occasions about the brake balance and was given a drawing, which he showed to Taylor. Mr Taylor seeks to suggest that this was nothing to him. An engineer of Mr Taylor’s
experience would instantly have known that he was being shown provided a significant improvement in functionality.

pp 10 and 11

another guy, Mr taylor.


...


If you turn to the statement of Mr Lewis, which we received yesterday, it says that: “In early April 2007” – the dates are important, bearing in mind the e-mails we have just seen – “Mike [Coughlan] asked me to begin work to design a quick-shift brake balance adjustment system, not a particularly
difficult task, as McLaren had used a quick-shift system before, in 2001 and 2002. My work mainly involved taking the knowledge that we already had about quick-shift systems and optimising it for use on the 2007 McLaren car”. He exhibits a document that we have not seen. He then confirms what Mr Lowe has said to you in a document we have not seen is correct. In particular, he states that, “For the purposes of the quick-shift project, I reported to Mike directly, without the involvement of my team leader, while Mike supervised the project. His involvement was no more than the general supervision and direction he gives to all drawing projects. For example, Mike
outlined the idea that I import that 2001-2002 design into the 2007 car. I looked at that previous design and brought it into a CAD scheme, with changes necessary for it to fit the 2007 car. Mike and I and Pat Frye reviewer this scheme and agreed the final details. I completed the detailed
design and component drawings, which Mike approved for manufacturing.”
Here is someone reporting directly to Mike Coughlan, working on a brake-balance system. At the same time, you have hard evidence that Coughlan is pestering Stepney for details of the Ferrari system and exchanging that information with at least De la Rosa at exactly that time. Yet you are being asked to accept that he did not contribute any ideas that he might have obtained from Ferrari to the development of the McLaren system. The McLaren system may be different; of course it is, for it was designed by different people.

p11

another name Pat Frye.








So now did Ron Dennis really had no knowledge of all this ?!
The same holds true for Lewis Hamilton.

My earlier post on page 7. Once you have the drawing, you can do all the fancy stuff to make it look different.

If you have the drawings and the underlying design philosophy, you can have different part suppliers achieve the same results through a different probably more elegant means.
Furthermore possession of competitors design also affects your design approach and does influence how you design your equivalent components.

The fact of the matter is they were caught with their pants down. Whether they did anything is a different matter, and I would think it will be stupid of them not to have benefited from it.
Think about it, if you were not going to use it, why go through the hassle of getting it- a "no thank" would have solved the problem.
Would you want to be caught with someones wife naked in a room and claim that you never did anything? It will be silly not to have done anything with her considering the potential consequences.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

>



^ But they haven't found any Ferrari components on the McLaren. And their philosophies are different, unreconciable to weight distribution and wheelbase length, witch infuences a lot.
The MP4-22 wasn't morphed into a F2007.

 

[450SEL6.9]

>

^ But they haven't found any Ferrari components on the McLaren. And their philosophies are different, unreconciable to weight distribution and wheelbase length, witch infuences a lot.
The MP4-22 wasn't morphed into a F2007.

But is it not obvious by now that TOUI's drivers had Ferrari's secrets and intended or attempted to utilize it, if nothing else for testing/curiosity purposes? O.J. Simpson is being charged with conspiracy and attempted robbery or kidnapping, right?

The possession of Ferrari's documents was enough to merit a penalty at the first hearing, as many have said. TOUI was caught and found guilty twice, the second time with their drivers implicated. Should the onus not shift slightly to them trying to prove themselves to be completely innocent and full of integrity?

It's still a soft, half penalty. I just don't think the WMSC was looking for a Ferrari component on the car. They had a situation where a team had their chief rivals secrets and members within the guilty tried to test the data gleamed from stolen property. I think the intent was there and an attempt was made to use the data.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

But is it not obvious by now that TOUI's drivers had Ferrari's secrets and intended or attempted to utilize it, if nothing else for testing/curiosity purposes? O.J. Simpson is being charged with conspiracy and attempted robbery or kidnapping, right?

The possession of Ferrari's documents was enough to merit a penalty at the first hearing, as many have said. TOUI was caught and found guilty twice, the second time with their drivers implicated. Should the onus not shift slightly to them trying to prove themselves to be completely innocent and full of integrity?

It's still a soft, half penalty. I just don't think the WMSC was looking for a Ferrari component on the car. They had a situation where a team had their chief rivals secrets and members within the guilty tried to test the data gleamed from stolen property. I think the intent was there and an attempt was made to use the data.

I fully agree.
I was just trying to expel the idea that the MP4-22 was morphed into a F2007.

 

[chonkoa]

I fully agree.
I was just trying to expel the idea that the MP4-22 was morphed into a F2007.

That wasn't what I was trying to point out: MP4-22 did not evolve into a F2007, but the documents provided Mclaren the strong basis to work on, and correct defects.
The possession of a material does influence component/system design approach, material selection and testing procedures as well.
I strongly believe that was the case here, the documents made them revisit their designs and augmented areas/components that were deemed to be lacking.
Testing procedures modified to further reveal flaws and subsequently design those flaws out of the system.

 

[Matt530i]

The possession of a material does influence component/system design approach, material selection and testing procedures as well.
I strongly believe that was the case here, the documents made them revisit their designs and augmented areas/components that were deemed to be lacking.
Testing procedures modified to further reveal flaws and subsequently design those flaws out of the system.

I completely agree. Just look at the whole section of Ferrari's testimony on the breaking system. It's common sense to believe that Coughlan hand his hands in that and they modified an old McLaren design along the lines of Ferrari's.

 

[450SEL6.9]

I completely agree. Just look at the whole section of Ferrari's testimony on the breaking system. It's common sense to believe that Coughlan hand his hands in that and they modified an old McLaren design along the lines of Ferrari's.

If you were a struggling restaurant owner who lost your two top chefs from last year and you magically came into possession of a Michelin 3-star chef's recipe book, what would you do? I think any reasonable person will think that reading through at that recipe book alone, never mind actually trying to cook those dishes in your own kitchen, influences your own food.

This is an overly simplistic example, but the point is though you might not be cooking the guy's exact dishes, but having his book of secrets still influences your own cuisines, procedure, setup in the kitchen, etc. . .

 

[chonkoa]

If you were a struggling restaurant owner who lost your two top chefs from last year and you magically came into possession of a Michelin 3-star chef's recipe book, what would you do? I think any reasonable person will think that reading through at that recipe book alone, never mind actually trying to cook those dishes in your own kitchen, influences your own food.

This is an overly simplistic example, but the point is though you might not be cooking the guy's exact dishes, but having his book of secrets still influences your own cuisines, procedure, setup in the kitchen, etc. . .

Excellent analogy, and hopefully this will elucidate the underlying saga involved here.

 

[NarutoRamen]

450SEL...That is a real good example. I agree with you 100%.

 

[Bartek S.]

McLaren may yet be banned warns Mosley

F1’s espionage saga involving McLaren may not yet be over, Max Mosley has warned. Fearing infection by Ferrari secrets, the FIA president said inspectors will enter the team’s Woking factory before its 2008 car is allowed to race. “They could be banned for 2008,” he clarified to the Daily Mirror.
“If there is serious evidence the information has influenced the design then we would have to look very seriously at their involvement in 2008. I hope that it won’t happen.” In the World Motor Sport Council transcripts, McLaren boss Ron Dennis is quoted as urging Mosley to begin the inspections as soon as possible.

“I care only about the McLaren name,” he told Mosley, who chaired the hearings in which a record $100m fine and expulsion from the constructors’ championship was imposed. Dennis added: “Once that inspection has been proven to be devoid of anything that could possibly be related to Ferrari intellectual property, I would like that in the public domain as quickly as possible.”
Mosley, however, this week dismissed theories that the spy scandal is the extension of a clash of personalities between himself - a lawyer, physicist and son of a notorious British figure - and former
Cooper mechanic Dennis.
“I don’t hate Ron,” he told the Evening Standard. “We have disagreed (in the past), but that doesn’t mean there is personal animus.”
Mosley is however openly critical of the British government, saying it will be their fault if the country loses its annual grand prix due to a lack of funding.
“The government has lost its virginity over the Olympics. The grand prix is far more important. If Britain loses it, the government will have to take the blame,” he said.