F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[Imhotep Evil]

Well Ferrari are going against Stepney.

Witch means he could show some Ferrari dirty laundry (illegal stuff).

Ferrari also disqualified would be a dream.

 

[bmwownage]

NOt trying to be stubborn or a pain in the ass, but there is no proof Ron Dennis knew about it.. that pdf file which i read, didn't say they had proof Ron knew about it unless i missed it.
If assuming Ron did not know about it, why should Mclaren be penalised because it is only the fault of one employee, or a few employees, or 20 employees? Only those individual employees should get kicked out, like Alonso have his license withdrawn or something..

You can say an employee is acting on behalf of his own company, so Mclaren should get punished as a team, but that also means that Stephney was giving info to Coughlan on behalf of Ferrari. Both of them betrays their own company, and it is irrelevant who gains as a result.

 

[bmwownage]

Well Ferrari are going against Stepney.

Witch means he could show some Ferrari dirty laundry (illegal stuff).

Ferrari also disqualified would be a dream.

Don't worry about the guy, Ferrari will probably pay him heaps after he goes into the jail for a few months or fined.

Anyway no more of me in the next 10 hours or so.. cya

 

[Centurion]

If assuming Ron did not know about it, why should Mclaren be penalised because it is only the fault of one employee, or a few employees, or 20 employees? Only those individual employees should get kicked out, like Alonso have his license withdrawn or something..

That's one of the flaws with team sports. If one fall the whole team falls. It's sucks that one little punk can bring down a whole team.


Here is a link to a funny animation which illustrates the whole scandal from day one.

Link

 

[450SEL6.9]

You can say an employee is acting on behalf of his own company, so Mclaren should get punished as a team, but that also means that Stephney was giving info to Coughlan on behalf of Ferrari. Both of them betrays their own company, and it is irrelevant who gains as a result.

Stepney was not giving Ferrari secrets to Coughlan on behalf of Ferrari! He was acting as an individual, but giving Ferrari's information, which he had no right to do! Why would Ferrari allow an employee to give their secrets away knowingly and for the behalf of Ferrari? There is no benefit to Ferrari for their rival to have their secrets!

Exactly. If Ron Dennis knew about the documents and were in on it we would have known.

I don't believe that Mr. Integrity did not know about the documents.

Does anyone remember Enron's deceased chairman and CEO Ken Lay? I think the Ken Lay Defense was that all these dastardly, illegal dealings were going on in Enron (where he was chairman and CEO until '02 and chairman from '02 forward), but without his knowledge. All the other accused executives were involved, sure. The chairman (importantly) was not, or so the defense goes.

I think Ron Dennis is Mclaren more than any chairman or CEO can be associated with his employer company.

 

[merve_extreme]

Stepney was not giving Ferrari secrets to Coughlan on behalf of Ferrari! He was acting as an individual, but giving Ferrari's information, which he had no right to do! Why would Ferrari allow an employee to give their secrets away knowingly and for the behalf of Ferrari?

Exactly and that too in March 07 at the begining of the championship.

 

[warot]

NOt trying to be stubborn or a pain in the ass, but there is no proof Ron Dennis knew about it.. that pdf file which i read, didn't say they had proof Ron knew about it unless i missed it.
If assuming Ron did not know about it, why should Mclaren be penalised because it is only the fault of one employee, or a few employees, or 20 employees? Only those individual employees should get kicked out, like Alonso have his license withdrawn or something..

You can say an employee is acting on behalf of his own company, so Mclaren should get punished as a team, but that also means that Stephney was giving info to Coughlan on behalf of Ferrari. Both of them betrays their own company, and it is irrelevant who gains as a result.

In the case of the student thing, the graduate could have received money or some other sort of compensation for the essay. While Stepney might have received benefits, Ferrari as a company didn't.

As for Mc, if the drivers are allegedly involved, then heck yes the whole team should be punished. They benefited hugely from the docs if that conversation is true.

 

[Centurion]

I don't believe that Mr. Integrity did not know about the documents.

Does anyone remember Enron's deceased chairman and CEO Ken Lay? I think the Ken Lay Defense was that all these dastardly, illegal dealings were going on in Enron (where he was chairman and CEO until '02 and chairman from '02 forward), but without his knowledge. All the other accused executives were involved, sure. The chairman (importantly) was not, or so the defense goes.

I think Ron Dennis is Mclaren more than any chairman or CEO can be associated with his employer company.

LMAO at bringing Ken Lay into the discussion.

The Enron scandal is a bit different though. Unlike Mclaren's case high positioned people with a lot pf authority was involved. Not only that but many more choose to ride on the wave of success and chose not to question how the company was earning money.

Ken Lay was the puppet master and acknowledged the filth that was going on by not interfering. There's no question that Ken Lay weren't aware of what was going on, especially his closest co-workers were. He just stood by letting his wizards work their magic.


With the Mclaren fiasco it has come to our knowledge that the people involved are nothing but pack of idiots who don't know how to cheat in a discrete manner. The only way Dennic could have been informed about the secret information would have been through one of people involved, either verbally or by being shown the documents. In either case the person who involved Dennis would have already dragged down Dennis during interrogation or questioning by FIA.


Like I said before, no one walks safe away from a scandal. After all Ken Lay was found guilty at the end, didn't he? Dennis is innocent until proven guilty

 

[450SEL6.9]

I know it's a stretch bringing in Kenny Boy, Luw, but I was referring only to the way he defended himself. However, I brought it up because I keep reading that Mr. Integrity is completely not involved in the criminal activity, though the top execs around him allegedly had some knowledge. By the way, Coughlan is not a low-level employee. We'll see if the execs are formally charged in Italy.

Why would the flow of info/knowledge/illegal activity suddenly stop, conveniently before it reaches the head honcho? IMO, that is the typical Ken Lay / Corporate Crime Defense. The argument in so many white collar crime cases is very similar. The top guy usually claims the people in my company, especially my co-defendant, were involved in the crime, but I wasn't! No, really, it stopped at the guy below me. I really had no knowledge of it until it was too late and the monster became too big!

The bottom line is that I don't buy that argument in most of these corporate crime cases.

 

[chonkoa]

What confounds me with the mountain of evidence is that the drivers are left to compete for the championship- doesn't make sense.

With the evidence we have seen so far, the honourable thing for both Hamilton and Alonso to do is to quit the championship at this stage.

The only reason the FIA did not expel Mclaren from the rest of the 2007 season is the press backlash, and nothing more. Hamilton is definitely the poster child of every sports mag, and the FIA lack the audacity to deal with the backlash.

 

[Centurion]

I know it's a stretch bringing in Kenny Boy, Luw, but I was referring only to the way he defended himself. However, I brought it up because I keep reading that Mr. Integrity is completely not involved in the criminal activity, though the top execs around him allegedly had some knowledge. By the way, Coughlan is not a low-level employee. We'll see if the execs are formally charged in Italy.

Why would the flow of info/knowledge/illegal activity suddenly stop, conveniently before it reaches the head honcho? IMO, that is the typical Ken Lay / Corporate Crime Defense. The argument in so many white collar crime cases is very similar. The top guy usually claims the people in my company, especially my co-defendant, were involved in the crime, but I wasn't! No, really, it stopped at the guy below me. I really had no knowledge of it until it was too late and the monster became too big!

The bottom line is that I don't buy that argument in most of these corporate crime cases.

You're right. That's usually how it goes. An employee is engaging in filthy actives and the CEO claim that he had nothing to do with it. Very typical scenario.

There is a possibility that Dennis some what had a sense of what was going on, but I doubt it. I just don't see how he would risk his entire career for that.

Further more the way the whole thing got down shows that it didn't have a brain behind it. I mean, just look at it. the paper were taken to a public place for copies, and the communication between Del a Rosa and Alonso was thorough email.

Come on. There is no way a smart man like Dennis would take part in such stupidity.

 

[coolraoul]

Come on. There is no way a smart man like Dennis would take part in such stupidity.

Second that. No way.

For the rest, don't know, have to say it does not interest me any more, even if it seems disproportinned to me.

 

[chonkoa]

You're right. That's usually how it goes. An employee is engaging in filthy actives and the CEO claim that he had nothing to do with it. Very typical scenario.

There is a possibility that Dennis some what had a sense of what was going on, but I doubt it. I just don't see how he would risk his entire career for that.

Further more the way the whole thing got down shows that it didn't have a brain behind it. I mean, just look at it. the paper were taken to a public place for copies, and the communication between Del a Rosa and Alonso was thorough email.

Come on. There is no way a smart man like Dennis would take part in such stupidity.

Considering how smart Ron Denis is, I am sure he is aware of it and decided not officially be involved in it.

 

[NarutoRamen]

I can't believe some of you guys are dumb enough to think that somehow Ferrari masterminded this.

Really? You're telling me that Nigel Stepney loves Ferrari so much that he decided to give in to Luca's request to give McLaren secret information while potentially getting caught by Mike's stupidity and virtually getting disowned by Ferrari and potentially spending most of his life if not all of it in jail for espionage and losing all his money? What a great job. How can I get this job? This f__king sounds like a spy movie where the govn't says "he is not our operative". You guys need to stop watching TV.


As for Ron. He is smart enough not to discuss these matters electronically. I'm pretty sure Mike showed him the documents and Ron basically said, "Give these to the drivers and engineers so they can use them". Think about it. Why would Ron keep the documents when he isn't the one who works on them? Give them to the people that can use them, anyone with half a brain will figure that much out.

This is no longer about McLaren fans vs. Ferrari fans. This is about two organizations with hundreds of Millions of dollars if not a few billions, and countless man hours of R&D at risk. Get over your little fanboy jealousies and realize this isn't a fanboy war...this is a serious crime involving two of the most well known companies in the world.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

I know it's a stretch bringing in Kenny Boy, Luw, but I was referring only to the way he defended himself. However, I brought it up because I keep reading that Mr. Integrity is completely not involved in the criminal activity, though the top execs around him allegedly had some knowledge. By the way, Coughlan is not a low-level employee. We'll see if the execs are formally charged in Italy.

Why would the flow of info/knowledge/illegal activity suddenly stop, conveniently before it reaches the head honcho? IMO, that is the typical Ken Lay / Corporate Crime Defense. The argument in so many white collar crime cases is very similar. The top guy usually claims the people in my company, especially my co-defendant, were involved in the crime, but I wasn't! No, really, it stopped at the guy below me. I really had no knowledge of it until it was too late and the monster became too big!

The bottom line is that I don't buy that argument in most of these corporate crime cases.

Dennis was source of new evidence
Friday, 14, September, 2007, 18:45

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has revealed that he was the source of the new evidence that prompted the FIA to revisit the spying case.

The governing body reconvened the World Motor Sport Council after additional evidence came to light, the core of which was an exchange of emails between McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and world champion Fernando Alonso.

As a result, McLaren was thrown out of the 2007 constructors' championship and hit with a record fine.

Dennis said at Spa on Friday that he approached the FIA as soon as he became aware of the existence of the emails.

“Once I became aware that new evidence might exist which I did on the morning of the Hungarian GP (5 August), I immediately phoned the FIA to keep them informed,” he said.

Dennis added that McLaren is still considering whether to appeal Thursday's WMSC verdict.

“We now have seven days to appeal and are carefully considering the company’s position once we have a full understanding of the FIA’s findings,” he said.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40673&PO=40673

BTW, interesting possessing another team's data is not a breach of the International Sporting Code, the Formula One Technical Regulations, or the Formula One Sporting Regulations. Using that data in competition is, but possessing is not.

 

[NarutoRamen]

^^Ok, so basically Dennis knew that the data was there but as far as he was concerned no one used it. Then he finds out that Pedro and Alonso have proabably used it, he shat his pants and said. "We're f__cked, I must tell them before they find out on their own".

 

[coolraoul]

Wow that is strange, I thought McLaren was also punished because of their lack of honesty at the first hearing where they said only 2 persons were involved, and now we learn that McLaren-boss himself gave the new evoidences to the FIA...

It was a poker game, Dennis has played and lost this case... Maybe if he makes an appeal this revelation will serve him, proving McLaren good faith except Coughlan and some others?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

>



^ Another weird part is that FIA needed to prove that McLaren used Ferrari data in competition in order to make the case that McLaren had breached a regulation. The FIA couldn't prove this and admitted as much.

So the case on McLaren is pretty thin:
- possessing another team's data is not a breach
- using it is, but no evidence/proof
- in Toyota's case, they (Toyota) used Ferrari-owned software during races and that is a breach of the Formula One Technical regulations stating that a team may not use any part designed by, or property of, a rival team.
Two men were prosecuted for this but Toyota F1 suffered no consequences from the FIA.
So this penalty against McLaren F1 but not in particular its employees/contract drivers seems strange.

 

[PanterroR]

Another weird part is that FIA needed to prove that McLaren used Ferrari data in competition in order to make the case that McLaren had breached a regulation. The FIA couldn't prove this and admitted as much.

FIA delivers the shocking proof behind McLaren’s cheating

Posted on Friday 14 September 2007



Emails between Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa were central to the evidence that led to the disqualification and $100m fine imposed on McLaren. The FIA revealed a 15-page dossier of the evidence to the media at Spa-Francorchamps on Friday, which showed that the confidential Ferrari information sent by Nigel Stepney to Mike Coughlan had indeed been used by the Woking based team.
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable,” test driver de la Rosa wrote in one email to world champion Alonso. “It comes from Nigel Stepney. He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping on lap 18.”

In another email, this time to chief designer Mike Coughlan, de la Rosa write: “Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro.”

Coughlan replied to the email with a text message, and de la Rosa forwarded the information to Alonso, who emailed: “(The weight distribution) surprises me; I don’t know if it’s 100 per cent reliable, but at least it draws attention.”

The evidence also reveals that the drivers discussed Ferrari’s flexible wings, aero balance, tyre gas, braking system and strategies. The FIA said Coughlan and Stepney sent 288 text messages to each other and talked on the telephone at least 35 times.

Rumours are swirling in the Spa paddock that Alonso, unhappy at McLaren this year and reportedly keen to break his contract, threatened to take the emails to the FIA before Ron Dennis pre-empted him.

 

[PanterroR]

Click here for the full FIA statement