F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[Imhotep Evil]

Personally I think the punishment is fair… not because McLaren cheated but because they got caught cheating. What bugs me is that McLaren are being crucified.

Newsflash, they are all cheaters. Industrial espionage has been part of F1 as it is in any other motorsport. For that reason I want Ferrari to get off their high horse and shut the f*** up at this point.

True.
I agree.
But Ferrari also has serious internal problems, politics, power struggles, reliability issues, leaks (and not just to McLaren; remember the Toyota spy-scandal ?!).

So this is also a perfect scape goat for their/top positions own weaknesses.
I can just see it:
"we lost (the WDC) cause of the spy affair, and our cars falling to pieces on so many occasions had nothing to do with it

Because Ferrari did not benefit from that action.

Could be, but then again the 151(c) is also very very vague.

 

[450SEL6.9]

So you think Hamilton is that innocent ?!

Oh heck no! I have not thought of Hamilton as the super innocent, sweet and sugary, rags and riches nice guy from day one . . . and I'm not starting now. It's just that the media keeps portraying him as that innocent.

I still think it is a half-verdict. The headline's initial impact is huge because of the $100 million fine. Well, that actual number will be closer to $30 million because for some crazy reason TOUI can offset it against the estimated $68.9 million it would have won if it was not docked all its points for this season. They don't officially get the points, so why are they being paid prize money based on some fictional points or notional "what if or would have?" scenario.

I reckon the actual loss to TOUI will only be $30 million. By the way, Alonso's salary is between $20-35 million. Hmm . . . interesting.

 

[siko]

LOL, I just can't believe Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso were exchanging emails about trade secrets... what a bunch of knuckleheads

 

[450SEL6.9]

Mclaren is proven guilty, so people please stop the Ferrari and FIA bashing.

I think they have been proven guilty TWICE. Despite that, there is still so much bashing of Ferrari and the FIA for essentially Ferrari defending themselves against a proven leak of data and the FIA enforcing the sporting regulations. None of this would be necessary if a certain team did not come into possession of a rival's data and harbored clear intentions of using it.

LOL, I just can't believe Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso were exchanging emails about trade secrets... what a bunch of knuckleheads

I agree. If those guys just bought a run-down safe house somewhere in Spain and met there, this season could still be legitimate.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

I have been waiting for all the facts to come out before commenting on this incident. In the Australian GP, Ferrari has about 1 second per lap advantage, but after that Mclaren must have tired out a few things that Ferrari was doing, and it has obviousely worked for them as well, and we notice Mclaren was back on pace a few weeks later. In fact these Ferrari technical details might also help or influence Mclaren's design of next years car as well. Sure their car might look different to the Ferrari, but the actual mechanical stuff underneath the skin, and the layout and positioning of the various components might be similar.

Mclaren is proven guilty, so people please stop the Ferrari and FIA bashing. However there are a few questions I want to ask. After this verdict is there any chance Alonso will stay with Mclaren next year? How come de la Rosa and Alonso did not inform Lewis about these details? What will happen to Nigel Stepney?

Well for starters they didn't use the Ferrari weight distribution, different cars.
But the data they got from simulation helped their tire understanding.

The gas is probably interesting as from what I've heard from Eurosport France
such thing is not legal.

On Hamilton, repost:

So you think Hamilton is that innocent ?!

I can see it... Monday morning, Alonso/De la Rosa arrives to the Woking factory and said the engineers "I had a dream, let's change the <insert here> of the car but, please, only the ones of my car "ssshhhhhh" don't tell nor give this to Lewis"

 

[bmwownage]

Just read this evidence that the FIA have released

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

Even after this if anyone believes that Mclaren are innocent then they are fooling themselves.Both Alonso and Pedro should be banned from F1 forever.

link to FIA official document

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

It's already posted. Agree that Mclaren is guilty, the penalty is a harsh one though..
However i have no idea why Ferrari is considered so innocent. Whatever they say, it's THEIR EMPLOYEE who gave info to Mclaren at his own will, even with Jean Todt say this employee is unhappy or is against the team.. This is identical to Mclaren's employee receiving info from Ferrari is found guilty no matter what Ron Dennis says because coughnan is THIER EMPLOYEE.

 

[Monster]

LOL, I just can't believe Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso were exchanging emails about trade secrets... what a bunch of knuckleheads

Talk about knuckleheads, remember how they got caught. Coughlan asked his wife to photocopy the document in a local printing shop. He could have bought one of those photocopying and printing machine at home and do it himself.

 

[bmwownage]

One of the thing unquestioned in the release from WMSC is that the current Mclaren car does not share anything in common with the Ferrari, and that can be concluded that the MP4-22 didn't gained anything directly from the Ferrari documents..
Not saying they didn't gain anything, of course they did, having additional info is a gain already, but not directly on the car.

 

[450SEL6.9]

However i have no idea why Ferrari is considered so innocent. Whatever they say, it's THEIR EMPLOYEE who gave info to Mclaren at his own will, even with Jean Todt say this employee is unhappy or is against the team.. This is identical to Mclaren's employee receiving info from Ferrari is found guilty no matter what Ron Dennis says because coughnan is THIER EMPLOYEE.

What do you mean their employee giving the dossier is the identical as Mclaren receiving their rival's information? The two are night and day!

Ferrari has no potential gain from an employee giving away its secrets. Mclaren had a potential gain and perhaps an intention to use that information. How are these two identical?

 

[bmwownage]

Talk about knuckleheads, remember how they got caught. Coughlan asked his wife to photocopy the document in a local printing shop. He could have bought one of those photocopying and printing machine at home and do it himself.

haha..

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Oh heck no! I have not thought of Hamilton as the super innocent, sweet and sugary, rags and riches nice guy from day one . . . and I'm not starting now. It's just that the media keeps portraying him as that innocent.

I still think it is a half-verdict. The headline's initial impact is huge because of the $100 million fine. Well, that actual number will be closer to $30 million because for some crazy reason TOUI can offset it against the estimated $68.9 million it would have won if it was not docked all its points for this season. They don't officially get the points, so why are they being paid prize money based on some fictional points or notional "what if or would have?" scenario.

I reckon the actual loss to TOUI will only be $30 million. By the way, Alonso's salary is between $20-35 million. Hmm . . . interesting.

The money wont be a problem for McLaren as their budget is of 450 to 500 million.

Poor McLaren with only ~400/430 million more or less left, how will they manage ?!
No more fancy motor-home, private airplane excursions, victory parties, simulation hours for Hamilton (to save on the electric bill) ...

Alonso's salary is being paid by his sponsor backers (Santander, MM and Co.) and McLaren are thus left with a lot after paying his salary.



Compared to Toyota's case this is a reverse sentence.



Alonso ... he's the hottest thing on the market now, knowing both the secrets of McLaren/MP4-22, Ferrari/F2007 and Bridgestone tires, witch everyone else desperately wants.

Toyota would probably pay a fortune.

And if he returns to Renault, I can see a very competitive R28/Team Renault for 2008.

 

[merve_extreme]

However i have no idea why Ferrari is considered so innocent. Whatever they say, it's THEIR EMPLOYEE who gave info to Mclaren at his own will, even with Jean Todt say this employee is unhappy or is against the team.. This is identical to Mclaren's employee receiving info from Ferrari is found guilty no matter what Ron Dennis says because coughnan is THEIR EMPLOYEE.

Because their EMPLOYEE acted independently without the knowledge of his employers.In short he betrayed them.

 

[450SEL6.9]

Alonso's salary is being paid by his sponsor backers (Santander, MM and Co.) and McLaren are thus left with a lot after paying his salary.

Alonso ... he's the hottest thing on the market now, knowing both the secrets of McLaren/MP4-22, Ferrari/F2007 and Bridgestone tires, witch everyone else desperately wants.

Toyota would probably pay a fortune.

And if he returns to Renault, I can see a very competitive R28/Team Renault for 2008.

Yes, Alonso's salary is handled by his sponsors. Forgot about that. The question is can Alonso get out of his contract.

 

[bmwownage]

What do you mean their employee giving the dossier is the identical as Mclaren receiving their rival's information? The two are night and day!

Ferrari has no potential gain from an employee giving away its secrets. Mclaren had a potential gain and perhaps an intention to use that information. How are these two identical?

So FIA/WMSC has no such thing called plagarism? Maybe they don't but repeating what i said 2-3 pages ago, a student asked for an essay from a graduated student who studied the same course a few years back, after the student handed in he was caught. Result was BOTH OF THEM were punished, the graduated student got his degree withdrawn while the student who asked for the essay got dq from the course.

Never knew motorsport is like this, as long as a team successfully tempt another team to have its own documents, the other team is immediately at guilt. Only Ferrari would do something like this though.. sorry i just hate ferrari.

 

[450SEL6.9]

Alonso's salary is being paid by his sponsor backers (Santander, MM and Co.) and McLaren are thus left with a lot after paying his salary.

Alonso ... he's the hottest thing on the market now, knowing both the secrets of McLaren/MP4-22, Ferrari/F2007 and Bridgestone tires, witch everyone else desperately wants.

Toyota would probably pay a fortune.

And if he returns to Renault, I can see a very competitive R28/Team Renault for 2008.

Yes, Alonso's salary is handled by his sponsors. Forgot about that. The question is can Alonso get out of his contract.

 

[bmwownage]

Because their EMPLOYEE acted independently without the knowledge of his employers.In short he betrayed them.

On the Mclaren side, no evidence was shown that Ron Dennis knew that his employee got such information.

betray - that's arbitary, it can be a trap right? Ferrari may end up firing the guy, then paying him a bunch of money thanking him to successfully place confidential info at his friend's house.

Furthermore Coughnan can also be considered to have 'betrayed' Mclaren by accepting the information.

 

[450SEL6.9]

So FIA/WMSC has no such thing called plagarism? Maybe they don't but repeating what i said 2-3 pages ago, a student asked for an essay from a graduated student who studied the same course a few years back, after the student handed in he was caught. Result was BOTH OF THEM were punished, the graduated student got his degree withdrawn while the student who asked for the essay got dq from the course.

Never knew motorsport is like this, as long as a team successfully tempt another team to have its own documents, the other team is immediately at guilt. Only Ferrari would do something like this though.. sorry i just hate ferrari.

bmwownage, the difference between the Ferrari/TOUI situation and the active student/graduated student example is clear:

- the graduated student and active student are individuals, acting as individuals, giving his own individual assets (his essay), therefore he gets his degree withdrawn, no one else was involved

- Stepney (the graduated student) is giving his team's assets (other people's property)!, Stepney as an individual should get kicked out, but why would Ferrari (his employer) be punished by the WMSC also when they did nothing as a team/company to help the active student (Coughlan)?

- the graduate student in your example directly helped (by giving his own essay) the active student, Ferrari did not directly help, their employee helped and the punishment should be limited to him

 

[Imhotep Evil]

The question is can Alonso get out of his contract.

Well he should now that McLaren's convicted.
We'll see.

 

[merve_extreme]

On the Mclaren side, no evidence was shown that Ron Dennis knew that his employee got such information.

betray - that's arbitary, it can be a trap right? Ferrari may end up firing the guy, then paying him a bunch of money thanking him to successfully place confidential info at his friend's house.

Furthermore Coughnan can also be considered to have 'betrayed' Mclaren by accepting the information.

By that logic everyone and everything is a farce in F1.So what will we do about that.Conspiracy theories get nowhere.Ron Dennis is a no question,because his top executives knew about it,so did his drivers.Ron != Mclaren.Hence rightly so Mclaren as a team has been punished,Ron as an individual has not been.

 

[Centurion]

On the Mclaren side, no evidence was shown that Ron Dennis knew that his employee got such information.

Exactly. If Ron Dennis knew about the documents and were in on it we would have known. In a big scandal like this no one is safe. Once someone is caught they spill the beans and drags everyone else down with them.

Thankfully Hamilton wasn't involved either. It would have been disastrous for his career.