F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[LaArtist]

when we think about it.. its a freakin astronomical sum of money
100million dollars..
shit split that into even with all our active members..and we will buy some bitchin cars..

but i guess its NOTHING for MB

 

[chonkoa]

when we think about it.. its a freakin astronomical sum of money
100million dollars..
shit split that into even with all our active members..and we will buy some bitchin cars..

LOL...
Very funny.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

when we think about it.. its a freakin astronomical sum of money
100million dollars..
shit split that into even with all our active members..and we will buy some bitchin cars..

but i guess its NOTHING for MB

true, especially after the chrysler sale. When you start thinking about it MB really has had some shitty years:

- mitsubishi faillure
- Maybach Faillure
- Smart Faillure
- problems with Merger/takeover
- chrysler faillure
- losing spot as nr 1 premium brand

and now this

 

[LaArtist]

^yeah man..
its sad really

its impressive that they still kick ass though..

 

[RikfromBelgium]

bweih, they kick ass on a lower level, some are kicking far better ass than them

 

[Imhotep Evil]

They have not cheated on the track. They have neither used used any illegal parts not illegal design or weight management wizadry. They have have not used illegal aerodynamics package, neither have they used illegal engine.
However, the mere fact they are in possession of the competitors secret document incriminate them- and that is the issue here.

It is irrelevant if the information influenced the construction of their car or not, the fact of the matter is the illegal possession of the material.

Well if that's the case good that McLaren won't win the WCC, cause I can't stand them. (though I pity Mercedes)
But then Ferrari will win and I can't stand then just as much as I can't stand McLaren.


Note, MB should buy the rest of the shares and oust the likes of Dennis, Withmarsh, Lowe and Co.

 

[LaArtist]

bweih, they kick ass on a lower level, some are kicking far better ass than them

i was talking about F1..

any no ..
not many kick far better as outside F1 than MB either..
SOme but not many.D

 

[PC Valkyrie]

They have not cheated on the track. They have neither used used any illegal parts nor illegal design or weight management wizadry. They have have not used illegal aerodynamics package, neither have they used illegal engine.
However, the mere fact they are in possession of the competitors secret document incriminate them- and that is the issue here.

It is irrelevant if the information influenced the construction of their car or not, the fact of the matter is the illegal possession of the material.

Exactly. Therefore, it seems McLaren is being punished because of posession of Ferrari materials by the FIA World Motor Sports Council. I just wonder whether that is appropriate. It's more like industrial espionage, which should be settled in legal settings outside of the sporting arena, and should not affect the standings in the WCC and WDC because no one is really "cheating" when it comes to the actual sport. I know it may be hard to separate the two, but that's my thought.

Like I said, tommorrow's statement from the WMSC hopefully will shed some light on the reasoning behind the punishment.

 

[450SEL6.9]

Wait a minute, I think the possession charge carried with it no penalty. TOUI was found guilty of possession at the first hearing and nothing happened.

This lastest hearing was called as a result of new evidence that possibly suggested TOUI using the stolen intellectual property. Again TOUI was judged to be guilty, which I think implies that the FIA is satisfied that the team used the data to its advantage.

It's largely irrelevant what each of us thinks about how TOUI cheated. The fact of the matter is TOUI would not have been docked all its WCC points and fined $100 million based on the possession of Ferrari IP charge alone. I think the severity of the verdict is a dead giveaway that TOUI gained a punishable benefit from the Ferrari dossier.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Wait a minute, I think the possession charge carried with it no penalty. TOUI was found guilty of possession at the first hearing and nothing happened.

This lastest hearing was called as a result of new evidence that possibly suggested TOUI using the stolen intellectual property. Again TOUI was judged to be guilty, which I think implies that the FIA is satisfied that the team used the data to its advantage.

It's largely irrelevant what each of us thinks about how TOUI cheated. The fact of the matter is TOUI would not have been docked all its WCC points and fined $100 million based on the possession of Ferrari IP charge alone. I think the severity of the verdict is a dead giveaway that TOUI gained a punishable benefit from the Ferrari dossier.

Yeah, I know.....but just think outside the box right now and think about the following concept:

Even if McLaren was found to have used the Ferrari materials to somehow to make their cars faster, so what? The car is still legal by F1 standards. If they had copied a Ferrari wing design by taking lots of pictures of the Ferrari car and incoporated into their own car, would they still be punished? It seems the WMSC is punishing McLaren because of the way they got the information (and assuming that they found proof it was used on the McLaren car).

I agree that industrial espionage is serious and McLaren should be punished in the courts. I just wonder whether they should be punished in the sporting arena because their car is perfectly legal (even if there are some Ferrari design elements in it). Do you understand what I'm getting at?

 

[Remy Zero]

first of all, we must wait for the black and white, the full report on why they fined Mclaren 100 mil, and why they got their points stripped.

for me, they should have banned Mclaren for the rest of the season. why? because i think, Mclaren are capable of being champs. they were champs in the past, they have world class engineers and designers, so why must they stoop so low to win?

this whole thing started because of a disgrunted Ferrari employee. i'm sure as hell that no one knew this would go this far.

now, come to think about it, even Michael Schumacher cound't have won in a Toyota or a STR. so, thats why i think a team designing and engineering the car is important. so, i question Lewis and Fernando's position here. did they gain anything from Ferrari's secret setups? who knows? Mclaren didn't even win 1 race last season, looked fragile, yet they're leading both the WDC and WCC championship now. they're the only team that suited well with the change of tyres from Mich to B'stone. how come? why?

then, comes the part where Mike admitted that he showed the sketches to Paddy Lowe, and Mclaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh. 2 of the most important figure in Mclaren knew about this and Ron Dennis claims he didn't know? thats the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.

those Mclaren leaders should have blown the whistle, instead, they kept quiet and flirted with fire. why didn't they alert the FIA about this? it's quite clear they might have been using or tried to use the Ferrari setup to gain advantage.

and yet, they get stripped of the 2007 points, get fined, and yet the drivers keep the points? hell..the drivers used that same car that were stripped of the WCC points, and they get to keep the points? something fishy going on?

i think, IMO, the FIA let the drivers keep the points because of Lewis Hamilton. i mean, common, this kid is the biggest thing since Michael Schumacher. he's pratically keeping F1 going round and round since MS retired last season. not Alonso, the youngest WDC, but Hammi, the potential champ this year.

FIA knew, if they penalized the drivers, they'll be a huge outcry that they're favoring Ferrari, etc etc. can u imagine if they did indeed penalize the drivers, whats gonne happen to Alonso and Lwis? Fred would have probably gone to Renault, and Hammi? To-Yoda? Spyker? he could have destroyed his career there. thats why, IMO, they let the drivers keep their points.

which, i think, is questionable. of cos, it hurts if the drivers didn't know whats going on and just drove the car. at the same time, who knows if the drivers knew about it and just kept quiet, and got the job done?

IMHO, they should have banned Mclaren for the rest of the season, not Ferrari bias here, or BMW bias here, but bannning them for the rest of the season shows to the rest of the field that this kinda attitude and lack of ethics and integrity won't be tolerated in F1. it shows that this whole thing has a serious consequence.

having said that, the 2007 season is a disaster. i don't give a damn if Massa, Kimster, Hammi or Fred won the WDC this season. it's a season of guilt.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

i was talking about F1..

any no ..
not many kick far better as outside F1 than MB either..
SOme but not many.D

the ones that matter

 

[Gene]

Oh well, such is life. Not much of a McLaren fan though, particularly since it was always McLaren criticizing and dobbing in other teams. I guess its karma.

Undoubtedly this will go on and on, with McLaren appealing the decision etc. Too bad its overshadowing the good things, like BMW's improvement in their second year. At least theres one plus - while McLaren and Ferrari battle it out, it'll give all the other teams enough time to catch up.

 

[bmwownage]

It's just a dirty trick imo by Ferrari, yes I am a Mclaren fan and i might be biased, but fact is they probably can't win it this year, and mclaren has something vulnerable off the race track and that's where they went.. Jean Todt came out saying they did not want to win the championship by this saga.. bullshit man, how about withdrawing your own team from the Constructor's too? Ferrari just can't take any 'downs', they tend to think they must dominate this sport... well OK, MB and BMW + Renault Toyota Honda go start up some other championship, I'm sure it will be better than F1 with no car makers in it!
Back to this topic, I think the question is, how did Mclaren get the info? Is it like someone from Ferrari intentionally gave his info to Mclaren or was it Mclaren buying or stealing info? I mean a student can't be called cheating in an exam if the student next to him intentionally showed his own exam to him.. Whether Ron Dennis knew about it, who knows? If Mclaren shouts it out, will the result be different? i don't think it makes a difference, because the problem is they got ferrari info, not about being honest whether they got ferrari info.. if i cheated, it won't make a difference if you found out i cheated or i say to you i cheated, the result is that i have cheated. Yea you might get some sympathy points if you owned up to it, but not much. However if it was the Ferrari dude who just gave info to Mclaren at his own will, who's fault is it? Ridiculous.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

lord, there is so much BS in that single reply I don't really know where to begin

 

[coolraoul]

I've heard that all teams (except Ferrari of course) are shocked and don't see the point of this ridiculous sanction. No proves, nothing...
Even Todt said he does not want to win like that.

Ferrari will may only be "virtually" second id McLaren drivers have more points. BMW will be third and not second, and Theissen said he was very happy of that: "we are only third on the track, I wouldn't have wanted such a given second place" (excuse, traduction from German AMS).

So I am sorry but everybody that know the case say that there is a problem and that this sanction is everything but justified.

 

[Remy Zero]

trick?

how did Ron Dennis 'see' the floors of the Ferrari flexing in Aussie at 200 mph?

how did Mclaren go from a winless season last yr, to leading the WDC and WCC this year?

sorry to dissapoint u, but the evidence is out.

 

[coolraoul]

Please, the Renault won everything last years year and now are loosers... Furthermore, last year, the McLaren were quicker than the Ferrari, only had a reliability problem.

Sport means that one year one is better, the year after it can change.

This argument is just useless, Ferrari were crap before Schumi came and suddenly they became Worldchampion, does it mean they spied or were illegal? No please, please...

The floor: knowing Ferrari's illegal floor does not mean that you have the same!

They HAD spy material, BUT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM IT because the cars were too different. At least nobody proved they benefited from it:

McLaren gave ALL THE TECHNICAL documents to the FIA for ALL THE TECHNICAL DETAILS of their cars.

NO FERRARI SOLUTIONS IN IT, NOWHERE. NO SIMILARITIES (not more than from an F1 to another at least).

They could not prove any benefit.

So the sanction is ridiculously high given that absence of facts.

ALL THE TEAMS ARE SHOCKED by this, all the persons who know the case don't understand this over-punishment. McLaren deserved to be punished, but

1) they did not win because they spied, they win because it is sport and that this year they were better.


2) the punishment of McLaren is much too harsh because no benefit has been proven. Again, they deserved a punishment but that is too much for what they did.

3) Ferrari had illegal floor, so what do we do? they benefited from it, right? So let's exclude them for ten years, with a 100,000,000,000§ fine, are you ok?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

>



^ McLaren went thru a winless season in 2006 after 10 victories 2005 because they lost key personal and ended up with an underdeveloped car.

Anyway I've been hearing things on Eurosport France Q2 and they're suggesting all sorts of things.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Holy crap:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

8.8 In light of the evidence now before it, the WMSC does not accept that the only

actions of McLaren deserving censure were those of Coughlan. While this

situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren

employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent,

evidence is now available which, when taken in its full context, makes clear that:

- Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was

receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;

- the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. de

la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team;

- the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not

only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information

regarding Ferrari's sporting strategy;

- Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and

received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be

illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run

tests in the simulator;

- the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso;

- there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to

use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was

not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons

not to do so;

- Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him

in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would

have influenced him in the performance of his duties.