F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[450SEL6.9]

But you support the idea of supressing all the pilots champ points no ?

I support the idea of taking away the benefit that was gained improperly. In the example of the $1 million bonus from a $50 million theft, then the entire economic benefit of $1 million should be taken away. In the example of TOUI gaining benefit from Ferrari data, then the entire benefit (its WCC) should be taken away and was taken away. My whole issue is that the drivers also got the same benefit as the team.

So yes, I support the idea of taking the WDC too because I think they have gained the same improper advantage that their team did. If the team loses it benefit, why would the drivers get to keep theirs

 

[coolraoul]

Again, I am sure they did not win BECAUSE OF the spy material. Last race was the prove, no more spy, no more benefit (if ever had) and big big victory, one-two from debut to end.

So they were taken more than they took.

Again, they deserved it, it was stupid and illegal.

But the drivers have nothing to do with it, it would have been unfair to take them all the points.

 

[Zonda]

McLaren wern't penalised for their flexing front wings, just as Ferrari in 2006.

 

[LaArtist]

damn i dont like this..
i dont like it at all

 

[Centurion]

FIA is really = Ferrari Infested Agency

 

[PanterroR]

Haha! Priceless!

 

[Deleted member 25]

I support the idea of taking away the benefit that was gained improperly. In the example of the $1 million bonus from a $50 million theft, then the entire economic benefit of $1 million should be taken away. In the example of TOUI gaining benefit from Ferrari data, then the entire benefit (its WCC) should be taken away and was taken away. My whole issue is that the drivers also got the same benefit as the team.

So yes, I support the idea of taking the WDC too because I think they have gained the same improper advantage that their team did. If the team loses it benefit, why would the drivers get to keep theirs

Where's McLaren's own merit in what you are stating, if you erase all what they gained then you took from them more than what they are supoosed to took. This is why your example is bad, if we apply the same punishement to the employee, then we don't only take the 1M$ but also the 50K salary wich is totaly unfair. And aigain McLaren didn't really benefit from the Ferrari files, check the Friday conference of the Monza or Turkish GP when 4 or 5 technical directors (symonds, rampf, willis....) stated that you can't really benefit from having such files with you.

 

[chonkoa]

This does not apply to F1/GP racing.

F1's technological supremacy is based on the fact that teams exchange information/intellectual property sooner or later.

If it's not thru documents/emails/CDs, than its thru staff rotations, pictures, listening devices, intercepted conversations and so on.

This is part of GP racing, common practice for more than 100 years.
Always has been always will be.
Everyone knows that your information will be leaked sooner or later and that your inovations will either be copied by everyone or banned.

I agree that teams do exchange information, however we should not mistake exchange for espionage activities as we have in this case.
In the case of exchange there is the willingness to transfer information for hopefully information in return.
In this case, it is outright stealing: it is the illegal possession of material without the consent of the owner.

For Mclaren to also claim that they did not benefit from this activity is perhaps the most absurd part of this saga.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

I agree that teams do exchange information, however we should not mistake exchange for espionage activities as we have in this case.
In the case of exchange there is the willingness to transfer information for hopefully information in return.
In this case, it is outright stealing: it is the illegal possession of material without the consent of the owner.

For Mclaren to also claim that they did not benefit from this activity is perhaps the most absurd part of this saga.

I'm not talking about teams exchanging information.
When people leave one team for another they carry its knowledge/secrets/IP in their head and sometimes some form of documents.

This spygate thing has been going on for over 100 years.
GP/F1 is not like a business or any "normal" place, it's a place where you know that sooner or later the opposition will have your IP/secrets/innovations.

I found the initial decision of NOT punishing McLaren as B*, and find this decision also B*.

Why, because I'm not convinced that it's nothing more than just on influence groups within the WMSC.


Why punish the team and not also the drivers ?!

Where's the evidence of McLaren benefiting from the F2007 ?!


It's a win win for FIA.
McLaren punished = penalty $$$$$$
Drivers fighting for the WDCs = audience $$$$$$
in the end FIA = a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[450SEL6.9]

This is why your example is bad, if we apply the same punishement to the employee, then we don't only take the 1M$ but also the 50K salary wich is totaly unfair.

If we apply the same punishment, both team and driver lose all their points. Teams loss = the drivers cumulative loss. In this case the team has been punished and the drivers have not punished at all.

Why is it that the employee would also lose his $50k salary? That salary is not tied to the illegal gains. The illegal gain is $1 million!

What I am saying is that Hamilton's unfair gain and Alonso's unfair gain equal TOUI's unfair points benefit (irrespective of what the other technical directors think because the WMSC had a different verdict) because constructor pts = Alonso pts + Hamilton pts.

Since TOUI lost all their points, why have the drivers not lost a single point? What I am saying is that TOUI's implied benefit (given today's decision) was 166 WCC points, which they lost. That figure is arrived at by adding Alonso's 89 to Hamilton's 92 while deducting the Hungary fiasco points. If the team's implied benefit was 166 or 181 without Hungary deduction, then the driver's implied benefits were 89 and 92. The 89 and 92 pts would be identical to the $1 million bonus that was part of the company's $50m illegitimate benefit.

Again, I never said anything about taking more than their benefit. I think it is impossible to determine what their exact benefit is in terms of points. Same thing with the team. The implied benefit was 166, in my opinion. That's why the cheaters got docked all their constructors points, instead of 10, 22, 34, 56, etc.

I don't understand why you think I want to punish the employee (drivers) more than the employer (TOUI). I am only advocating that they receive the same punishment! If the team loses that one point he scored for the team because the driver loses one point because the driver was driving the team's car. Am I not explaining something properly?

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Well, I've been following this saga closely even though I haven't been posting about it here.

I still am not sure how McLaren has "cheated" on the racetrack. F1 has strict rules about their cars and what is/is not allowed. Cheating to me means using an illegal device/mechanism to gain an unfair advantage over all other teams. Even if McLaren copied a design aspect from Ferrari, how is it "cheating" when the car is perfectly legal from F1's point of view? What if McLaren copied a design aspect from Ferrari just by taking pictures? Is that wrong too?

Posession of stolen materials from another team is wrong......that is clear. But how this translates into "cheating" on the race track is not clear to me at all. I find it hard to believe that the sole reason the McLaren cars are leading the championship so far is because of this stolen Ferrrari material.

There is no doubt that McLaren was in possesion of the Ferrari data/design. But what is still not clear to me is how/whether they benefited from it. I look forward to tommorrow's FIA statement where they will justify the reasons for punishing Mclaren.

 

[coolraoul]

Apparently there are absolutely NO PROVES that Mc did benefit from anything, and nothing really new had come today comparing to the last audience.

Furthermore, it is clear that you can't just apply one's trick to your car, because they are different, this only works on the long term when you can fully integrate it to the concept of your car.

I thought there were new elements, it is not the case. The only new element is the Ferrari's lobbying.

Shame on the FIA, once they don't punish and after that, with the same absence of proves, they apply the more harsh punition ever...

I have ever hated Ferrari because of that, they always try to use the FIA whan they can't win on the track because they do not have Schumi any more to save their @$$...

Ferrari International Assistance, Ferrari Invested Agency...

McLaren will go on appeal of course, and may will go ,on civil and criminal court against the FIA.

Hope they will F### -In their A$$$.

Don't know what Mercedes will do after that.
Don't know what Lewis will do...

Shame on the FIA.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Interesting interview with Dennis/Whitmarsh after today's FIA decision:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62320

 

[chonkoa]

I'm not talking about teams exchanging information.
When people leave one team for another they carry its knowledge/secrets/IP in their head and sometimes some form of documents.

This spygate thing has been going on for over 100 years.
GP/F1 is not like a business or any "normal" place, it's a place where you know that sooner or later the opposition will have your IP/secrets/innovations.

I found the initial decision of NOT punishing McLaren as B*, and find this decision also B*.

Why, because I'm not convinced that it's nothing more than just on influence groups within the WMSC.


Why punish the team and not also the drivers ?!

Where's the evidence of McLaren benefiting from the F2007 ?!


It's a win win for FIA.
McLaren punished = penalty $$$$$$
Drivers fighting for the WDCs = audience $$$$$$
in the end FIA = a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You've raised very fair points.
I admit there is a de facto exchange mechanism of team information when people move from one place to another. It doesn't however diminish the criminality of being in possession of the competitions secret information.

If I leave my job today and go to the competition, I am not allowed to take my company's property with me, neither am I allowed to pass sensitive information to the competition. If my previous employer finds out, I will be liable for my acts and the competition will also be fined. There are numerous cases like this, and we constantly sign confidentiality agreements to cover incidences like this.
In the event that case like this is discovered, there is no room for proof of evidence or lack thereof the use of such material- both the company involved and the individual pays the penalty. The penalty could be as severe as withdrawing the product from the market or paying damages to the company that owns the material.

So the point here is that it isn't necessary for there to be a proof of use, Mclaren car should be withdrawn from the rest of 2007 competition and all the team points forfeited.

The drivers should keep their points and be allowed to compete for points but not with the Mclaren car.

The individuals that facilitate the illegal transfer of information should be punished according the laws that covers such criminal behaviour.

 

[Centurion]

There is no doubt that McLaren was in possesion of the Ferrari data/design. But what is still not clear to me is how/whether they benefited from it. I look forward to tommorrow's FIA statement where they will justify the reasons for punishing Mclaren.

Yeah, some clarification is needed because at the moment we don't know the full details.


Alonso decided not to be present in Paris along with the other drivers:

 

[Bartek S.]

Another dirty Ferrari game won. They do anything to get WC title. FIA always plays accordingly to Ferrari rules. It’s the only reason I hate Ferrari F1 team (I still love Ferrari cars). I hope McLarens drivers going to win all remaining races to ashamed Ferrari. Plus I wish then BMW team improves to bit Ferrari in last races.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

chonkoa, just answer this one question for me:

How do you think McLaren has cheated on the racetrack?

 

[coolraoul]

Yes, I hate them for that. It is not sport, it is not elegant to do that.
You should accept your defeat when another is stronger than you.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

very sad, do teams have to openly take ferrari's of the track before ignorant fanboys stop saying utter BS like "Ferrari has won again"?

It's plain and simple, they stole/bought illegal documents and blueprints. Now you can try to blame ferrari as much as you want but if the Mclaren employe didn't take these documents, or if the ron dennis and his gang reported this from the minute they knew about it, nothing would have happened. The fact of the matter is, MCLAREN is the one to blame not FIA of Ferrari or some other BS conspiracy theory.

 

[chonkoa]

chonkoa, just answer this one question for me:

How do you think McLaren has cheated on the racetrack?

They have not cheated on the track. They have neither used used any illegal parts nor illegal design or weight management wizadry. They have have not used illegal aerodynamics package, neither have they used illegal engine.
However, the mere fact they are in possession of the competitors secret document incriminate them- and that is the issue here.

It is irrelevant if the information influenced the construction of their car or not, the fact of the matter is the illegal possession of the material.