F1 FIA versus McLaren Fiasco Thread

[Imhotep Evil]

>



^ Well the good news:

- McLaren won't win the WCC
- Alonso will be gone from McLaren
- BMW and Renault are now second and third


Bad news:

- Ferrari will win the WCC



Hopefully McLaren will press on with the flexi-floor matter and Ferrari will also be left without points.
One down, and hopefully one to go.

 

[coolraoul]

It is already over-punished imo, even if MacLaren somehow deserved that.

 

[Zonda]

I think it is a severe enough penalty if it was applied to the entire team, i.e. not protecting the drivers' points. My issue from the very beginning is that any penalty has to be applied equally. If the team is guilty of benefiting from a rival team's intellectual property, they lose their constructors points. However, the drivers also had the identical benefits and also scored their WDC with the same improper advantage over the other cars. It is not logical to punish the team by docking WCC and ignore the drivers. They both captured the same advantage. I have not changed my view on this from the beginning.

You make a very good point, but I think the thing is that it was the team that cheated, not the drivers. Hence why the team is punished.
But the drivers did ride the wave. If they could prove that the drivers knew about it or helped in any way like that I think they deserve to be punished as well.
Very hard case to decide how to punish. There are reasons both to punish and not to punish the drivers. However, the team has to be. And imo the team got a fair punishment.

 

[Sunny]

I think it is a severe enough penalty if it was applied to the entire team, i.e. not excluding the drivers' points. My issue from the very beginning is that any penalty has to be applied equally. If the team is guilty of benefiting from a rival team's intellectual property, they lose their constructors points. However, the drivers also had the identical benefits and also scored their WDC with an improper advantage over the other cars. It is not logical to punish the team by docking WCC and ignore the drivers. They both captured the same improper advantage. I have not changed my view on this from the beginning.

Implicit in your argument is the assumption that the purpose of the punishment is to remove any "improper advantage" and not just punish. If they really wanted to remove any "improper advantage" that McLaren gained from this deal, they would have to ban McLaren from F1 for a period till the knowledge they gained from the Ferrari docs is obsolete or irrelevant - and I doubt that is going to happen. There is also lot of precedence of team loosing it's points while the driver kept the points.

 

[coolraoul]

Well, Imhoted, keep in mind that MacLaren has revealed that Renault used spy material in their cars... If Dennis goes further, what he surely will do, Renault will be banned for at least 2 years because it seems Mac can prove they really uses it an benefit from their spy...

 

[EnI]

With what vehicle?

McLaren

 

[Centurion]

Hopefully McLaren will press on with the flexi-floor matter and Ferrari will also be left without points.
One down, and hopefully one to go.

.............and BMW will win the constructors championship.

Time to go on a witch hunt. Ferrari needs to get got.

 

[450SEL6.9]

Exactly. If they didn't benefit from the data then I find the punishment to be fair. No need to punish the drivers as well since they weren't in on this.

If Mclaren did benefit from the documents on a large extent then it would have been fair to perhaps even punish the drivers.

If they didn't benefit from the data, neither did the team. In that case, no one should have been punished. I don't see how drivers can automatically be separated from the team.

The comment that this year's TOUI car is 100x better than the Ferrari and the team did not benefit from the data is an opinion that is inconsistent with the WMSC decision. If there was no benefit, why would TOUI have all WCC docked, be put on review before 2008 and pay $100 million? I think the harshness of the decision towards TOUI implies that they did get a benefit! If the team did get a benefit, the drivers did as well because they drive the team's cars!

It appears that the FIA did not punish the drivers because of the immunity deal. I thought it only covered the revoking of super licenses.

 

[Deleted member 25]

the drivers were using illigeal cars and racing around, and they get to keep their points? doesn't make sense at all.

Cars are legal.

 

[coolraoul]

I honestly don't think McLaren only won races because they had this spy materal. So the punishment is harsh enough. Their car was better period. And they could not learn anything from the tyres pressure point of view.

For the rest of the accusations I don't know, but their car was better this year and they lost all the benefit from it.
They deserved that. But one can't say is isn't enough. It is fair and logical.

And I don't see why you should punish the drivers, they are not responsible of all that, it would be unfair to punish them by excluding them from the championship. As there is no other fair punition possible, it is logical not to punish them.

Better a free criminal that an innocent in jail, like said someone...

 

[chonkoa]

You make a very good point, but I think the thing is that it was the team that cheated, not the drivers. Hence why the team is punished.
But the drivers did ride the wave. If they could prove that the drivers knew about it or helped in any way like that I think they deserve to be punished as well.
Very hard case to decide how to punish. There are reasons both to punish and not to punish the drivers. However, the team has to be. And imo the team got a fair punishment.

That is why they should stop McLaren from competing for the rest of the season. The drivers can keep their points, but they will not, and should not be allowed to drive a McLaren car.
If the drivers are lucky enough to get a seat from other constructors and score points- fair game, but not from driving that McLaren car.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

>



^ The WMSC is all about who's got more influence and 0% about justice.
Ferrari have been left alone despite illegal flexi wings last year (as in 0 penalty) and a flexi floor this.
I'm just hoping this will change as Ferrari are just as guilty.

 

[Centurion]

If they didn't benefit from the data, neither did the team. In that case, no one should have been punished. I don't see how drivers can automatically be separated from the team.

The comment that this year's TOUI car is 100x better than the Ferrari and the team did not benefit from the data is an opinion that is inconsistent with the WMSC decision. If there was no benefit, why would TOUI have all WCC docked, be put on review before 2008 and pay $100 million? I think the harshness of the decision towards TOUI implies that they did get a benefit! If the team did get a benefit, the drivers did as well because they drive the team's cars!

It appears that the FIA did not punish the drivers because of the immunity deal. I thought it only covered the revoking of super licenses.

One reason to punish Mclaren even though they didn't(don't know for sure yet) make use of the documents is for possession.

After all, Mclaren might have taken copies of the documents intending to make use of them at a later stage. That makes it quite reasonable to punish them for the sinful deed of accepting espionage material.

 

[EnI]

McLaren loses all constructors' points

Thursday, 13, September, 2007, 18:38

The FIA World Motor Sport Council has disqualified McLaren from the 2007 constructors' championship and imposed the largest fine in motorsport history – but Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso can continue to vie for the drivers' crown.

After nine hours of deliberations at the hearing in Paris, the 26-member World Council panel decided to punish the Woking-based team for breaking the sporting regulations through possessing confidential Ferrari data.
But while the decision to exclude McLaren from the constructors' contest hands that title to Ferrari, McLaren's drivers have escaped a penalty.
Hamilton and Alonso's battle for the world championship will therefore continue unaffected in the remaining four rounds.

The fine of $100m (£49.2 million) will be offset against the television income the team would have earned had it been eligible for constructors' points, but is nevertheless unprecedented in its scale.
“The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructor points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season," the FIA said in a statement.
“Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to $100m, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.
“However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team’s drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regard to drivers’ points."
McLaren will also have to present its 2008 car for examination by the FIA before the start of next season.
“The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season,” read the statement.
The FIA added that no McLaren representatives will be allowed on the podium should one of its drivers win any of the season's remaining races.
And it said the full reasons for the verdict will be issued tomorrow (Friday).


Source: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40651

 

[Deleted member 25]

>



^ The WMSC is all about who's got more influence and 0% about justice.
Ferrari have been left alone despite illegal flexi wings last year (as in 0 penalty) and a flexi floor this.
I'm just hoping this will change as Ferrari are just as guilty.

IE Ferrari is never guilty.

 

[450SEL6.9]

And I don't see why you should punish the drivers, they are not responsible of all that, it would be unfair to punish them by excluding them from the championship. As there is no other fair punition possible, it is logical not to punish them.

It is not fair to the other drivers not to punish Hamilton and Alonso. I am not suggesting they were responsible for getting the Ferrari data. What I am saying is that they benefited from it, as did the team, which is why the team lost all constructors points!

Let's say you worked for a company that ended up robbing its customers of $50 million. Let's then assume that the boss of this company paid you a $1 million bonus, with the money coming from the stolen $50 million. You had nothing to do with the robbery! However, you gained a benefit from it as a result of your employment in the company.

A court will not charge you with any misconduct or crime, but you can bet your arse that you have to return your ill-begotten $1 million bonus. Don't you think it would be reasonable for you to be forced to return the $1 million?

 

[Deleted member 25]

It is not fair to the other drivers not to punish Hamilton and Alonso. I am not suggesting they were responsible for getting the Ferrari data. What I am saying is that they benefited from it, as did the team, which is why the team lost all constructors points!

Let's say you worked for a company that ended up robbing its customers of $50 million. Let's then assume that the boss of this company paid you a $1 million bonus, with the money coming from the stolen $50 million. You had nothing to do with the robbery! However, you gained a benefit from it as a result of your employment in the company.

A court will not charge you will any misconduct or crime, but you can bet your arse that you have to return your ill-begotten $1 million bonus.

BAD EXAMPLE, the employee has to return only the bonus not the whole earning.

 

[450SEL6.9]

BAD EXAMPLE, the employee has to return only the bonus not the whole earning.

I said that a court would force that employee to return his $1 million bonus because that was his benefit. I never said he would have to return his unrelated earnings.

 

[Deleted member 25]

I said that a court would force that employee to return his $1 million bonus because that was his benefit. I never said he would have to return his unrelated earnings.

But you support the idea of supressing all the pilots champ points no ?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

It is not fair to the other drivers not to punish Hamilton and Alonso. I am not suggesting they were responsible for getting the Ferrari data. What I am saying is that they benefited from it, as did the team, which is why the team lost all constructors points!

Let's say you worked for a company that ended up robbing its customers of $50 million. Let's then assume that the boss of this company paid you a $1 million bonus, with the money coming from the stolen $50 million. You had nothing to do with the robbery! However, you gained a benefit from it as a result of your employment in the company.

A court will not charge you with any misconduct or crime, but you can bet your arse that you have to return your ill-begotten $1 million bonus. Don't you think it would be reasonable for you to be forced to return the $1 million?

This does not apply to F1/GP racing.

F1's technological supremacy is based on the fact that teams exchange information/intellectual property sooner or later.

If it's not thru documents/emails/CDs, than its thru staff rotations, pictures, listening devices, intercepted conversations and so on.

This is part of GP racing, common practice for more than 100 years.
Always has been always will be.
Everyone knows that your information will be leaked sooner or later and that your inovations will either be copied by everyone or banned.