3 Series (F30) F30 328i vs 335i - Real World Impressions

[martinbo]

Exactly.
I hope BMW hasn't forgotten this either. M2 should come lightweight with a 4 pot!!
That would make an M135i/M235i unique in it's own way with it's smooth six in line.

No, not "Exactly" klier. BMW have a straight six heritage that stems back to the 1930s. BMW only started making 4 pots in the Sixties.

3l straight six turbo lost its soul. It's getting a little long in the tooth as well.

Have to disagree - the N55 got turbocharged, sure, but it's not like the physical virtues of the straight six engine were lost. No doubt the twin-scroll turbocharger has stifled the induction sound but for the rest of it - it's still the best engine in the world in its class. I would also say that to call it long in the tooth is a tad critical - this is an engine with the optimal swept volume, bore & stroke dimensions and current technology twin-scroll turbo, direct injection and valve lift & timing management systems. Maybe for some it's down on power for its size but I just put that down to BMW engineering a state of tune. Do dismiss the N55 as being technologically behind is vague - sure there are always areas for improvement and these will come to the fore in the next generation six. However, as it stands this engine is still the best six cylinder petrol engine around.

I owned a 2001 E46 320i with a NA 2.2l straight six and I also owned a 2009 335i E92. The NA straight six was the better sounding and the linear engine response was very BMW-like. It was a beaut, for my budget at the time. The 330i at that time was simply awesome.

F30 328i hauls ass and hardly sounds different to the 335i when on the boil..

You can't compare the upper rev-limit timbre of the N55 to that of the N20. Also, comparing perhaps the most sonorous straight six of all BMW sixes - the M54 - unencumbered by turbos or even valvetronic to the N54/N55 is a bit uneven.

 

[klier]

No, not "Exactly" klier. BMW have a straight six heritage that stems back to the 1930s. BMW only started making 4 pots in the Sixties.

I already corrected that if you read back. I didn't mean the quote the first part.
But it doesn't even matter, this thread is not about history or whatever, it's about what to buy now. A 328i or 335i.

Also, N54 > N55

N55 sucks (for a BMW 3.0 I6 in 2014. All in perspective)

 

[martinbo]

I have undone the rating. But my comment stands for the purposes of discussion continuity - BMW inline sixes have a wonderful heritage and most of the virtuosity is preserved today. V6s - meh - drove a Porsche one the other day in the Panamera base model. It was nothing short of grating. You'd never say that about a BMW six. Unless you're LaArtist.

Also, N54 > N55

N55 sucks (for a BMW 3.0 I6 in 2014. All in perspective)

Your ***** suck. All in perspective of course.

 

[klier]

Well to make it a bit better I should say that the N55 is still the best 'normal road car' 6 cylinder engine in the world. And with normal road car I don't mean a 911 GT3 RS 4.0 or M3 CSL or monsters of that nature.

 

[JLBM]

No, not "Exactly" klier. BMW have a straight six heritage that stems back to the 1930s. BMW only started making 4 pots in the Sixties.



Have to disagree - the N55 got turbocharged, sure, but it's not like the physical virtues of the straight six engine were lost. No doubt the twin-scroll turbocharger has stifled the induction sound but for the rest of it - it's still the best engine in the world in its class. I would also say that to call it long in the tooth is a tad critical - this is an engine with the optimal swept volume, bore & stroke dimensions and current technology twin-scroll turbo, direct injection and valve lift & timing management systems. Maybe for some it's down on power for its size but I just put that down to BMW engineering a state of tune. Do dismiss the N55 as being technologically behind is vague - sure there are always areas for improvement and these will come to the fore in the next generation six. However, as it stands this engine is still the best six cylinder petrol engine around.



You can't compare the upper rev-limit timbre of the N55 to that of the N20. Also, comparing perhaps the most sonorous straight six of all BMW sixes - the M54 - unencumbered by turbos or even valvetronic to the N54/N55 is a bit uneven.

My experiences have come from ownership and are very real indeed. The N55 is a great engine, but it is low on power and torque. And it absolutely has lost the soul of its predecessors. Apart from the straight 6 vs V6 argument, it is arguable inferior to the new Mercedes twin turbo 3l V6 (480NM from just 1,400rpm and 245Kw).

 

[martinbo]

My experiences have come from ownership and are very real indeed.

I'm not saying that your experiences aren't real. But even if I have had an altogether briefer experience (with both the 335i and 328i) though no less objective or analytical - surely my experience is no less real? Moreover, I've spoken to a number of BMW-contracted colleagues who will concur that the N20 4 pot is a peach but lacks the evocative appeal of the N55.

The N55 is a great engine, but it is low on power and torque.

That's not what Denis Droppa's real world acceleration tests at Gerotek show; the 335i monsters many cars with much bigger displacements and outputs.

And it absolutely has lost the soul of its predecessors. Apart from the straight 6 vs V6 argument.

A V6 engine is intrinsically unbalanced and requires the implementation of balancer shafts. I'm just not a V6 fan - many of them that I have driven exhibited all manner of characteristics that just grate my balls.
That being said, Mercedes' V6s are far smoother and more refined than most others.

 

[Rolf]

Gents to reinforce my support for choosing the 335i for its straight six engine, look at the new comparison test that Dede has posted between the M235i vs Audi S3 vs Merc CLA45AMG, the BMW straight six motor was judged the best due to its unrivaled refinement, sound and emotional pull. As for fuel consumption it was only 0,2ltr/100km behind the 4 cylinder Audi and don't say all this bull Sh!t about the 4 cylinder been better handling, the slalom speeds in the BMW were quicker than both Audi and Merc!!

 

[Porsche Guy]

Whilst I am due to disagree in a moment I first must say - holy crap!!! - Osna and Porsche Guy in the same thread. Time Warp stuff - sooo good to see both of you.

The BMW E30 M3 was the first M3 and it was indeed fitted with a motorsport derived inline four. However, as far as performance BMW (CS cars for example) and M car heritage goes, the straight six has a far more illustrious place in BMW history.
BMW started making straight sixes way before they did inline fours. The E30 M3 inline four was an anomaly looking back; even more so compared to the S85 V10 as it was installed in only one bodyshell. As for primary and secondary engine balance benefits - don't get me started on that rant. BMW straight sixes are, in my opinion, amongst the very most special engines in the world.

martinbo, I never left the forum, I still check it daily. I just haven't posted for about half a decade!

You're right, technically the I6 has a longer history with the brand, going back all the way to the late 1910's with their aircraft engines. But if you look at their automobile engines, I4's were at the core of their brand before the I6. That's not to say that the I4 or I6 is more or less deserving than the other.

The e30 favored power to weight as opposed to outright power, and it looks like that's thankfully the way the industry is finally headed again. Small displacement turbo engines are undoubtedly the future. Audi's TT Quatto Sport Concept, aka the next TT-RS, pumps out 420hp from a 2.0 I4!!! I wouldn't have complained if BMW had put something similar in the new M3/4.

Martin I think Porsche Guy hasn't experienced the drive in any 6 cylinder BMW to experience the sheer motoring nirvana the sound and smoothness these engines produce as well as effortless power. The 4 cylinder engines may have advantages with compactness, lighter weight and fuel consumption (although this is debatable cause I am sure with enough development the 6 cylinder can be just as fuel efficient) they will never produce the same emotional pull and exhaust note and never mind the smoothness a 6 cylinder engine will make at higher revs. I think it is a shame that BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz are focusing more attention to downsizing and replacing 6 cylinders with 4 cylinders. Why don't they just bring out a 2 liter straight six with Low pressure turbo, light weight magnesium or aluminum block and heads, cylinder deactivation and spark/cylinder individual controlled direct injection? Imagine the sound, smoothness advantages and motoring enjoyment!

I remember driving a friends E46 330i and then hopping to another friends Audi A4 2.0 T and the straight six motor won me over every time putting a huge smile on my face with its beautiful exhaust sound and amazing high rev smoothness when thrashing it to the red line, the 4 cylinder felt strong in the midrange but the sound and smoothness just didn't compare!!

If the 3 Germans can make the 6 cylinder diesel engines low on consumption like the 4 cylinder diesels why cant they do the same with the 6 cylinder petrol engines?

Rolf, my daily driver is an e46 330i ZHP, which runs the M54 I6, so I am very familiar with the characteristics of an I6. I4 engines have a lot of inherent advantages (many of which you listed) over the I6. Fewer moving parts is also an often overlooked advantage of any 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder debate.

While it's easy to say that a turbo I4 will never rev like a NA I6, you are comparing two very different engine philosophies. Turbo engines by their very nature are not designed to rev to the moon. NA motors need to rev high to generate comparable power as they limited by the amount of air/fuel in each combustion cycle relative to forced induction. With the entire industry shifting focus towards turbo engines, turbo engines are going to undergo significant changes and who's to say what engine characteristics will accompany this change!

 

[bmwownage]

Gents to reinforce my support for choosing the 335i for its straight six engine, look at the new comparison test that Dede has posted between the M235i vs Audi S3 vs Merc CLA45AMG, the BMW straight six motor was judged the best due to its unrivaled refinement, sound and emotional pull. As for fuel consumption it was only 0,2ltr/100km behind the 4 cylinder Audi and don't say all this bull Sh!t about the 4 cylinder been better handling, the slalom speeds in the BMW were quicker than both Audi and Merc!!

yea well if you put a 4cylinder in the 2 series (a.k.a. M2) it's going to be even faster. engine sound and/or refinement/characteristics aside and without thinking about anything else, for similar outputs, why wouldn't anyone want a smaller/lighter engine?

 

[Rolf]

yea well if you put a 4cylinder in the 2 series (a.k.a. M2) it's going to be even faster. engine sound and/or refinement/characteristics aside and without thinking about anything else, for similar outputs, why wouldn't anyone want a smaller/lighter engine?

 

[klier]

.... and don't say all this bull Sh!t about the 4 cylinder been better handling, the slalom speeds in the BMW were quicker than both Audi and Merc!!

But that's because you're comparing a BMW to an Audi/Merc. You should be comparing a BMW with a BMW

 

[Osnabrueck]

Just, wow. The amount of passion this topic inflames is right up there with water vs air-cooled or manny vs DCG…

Some context - I've been enjoying life with the A4 Avant 2.0T but am ultimately unsatisifed with the car as a whole and the engine is to blame. It just isn't enough engine for the car and the 4cyl's characteristics are poorly suited for the kind of driving I do - an hour long commute, half of which is stop and go traffic.

The S-Line's suspension is brutally stiff, and feels almost absurdly sprung when mated with an engine that is so pedestrian by contrast. It's a mill that shows its charm when it's driven agressively - and when the opportunity presents itself the 8 speed ZF tranny does an admirable job. Problem is, those opportunities only present themselves a few times in my long commute - the rest of my commute amplifies the flaws with the 4cyl engine… Namely, lack of power down low, vibration and general unrefinement at low speeds, a general unreadiness for sudden moves… Also, a good portion of my commute takes me over steep hills in downtown SF - where the unrefined demeanor of the 4cyl is really exposed.

I don't want to be too hard on the A4 - In S-Line trim it looks great, and the interior - with the alcantara inserts and brightwork - is unbelievable. The cabin ambience is almost exotic-car level.

But for the drive itself… What it comes down to is I really want to be driving an S4 Avant, or at least a 3.0T. I've thought of jumping over to an S4 Sedan but I'm somewhat bored with the Audi experience and would rather wait out for the next gen A4 if I was to go that route.

So…

Enter BMW. There's the new 328xi wagon, which I would totally consider if the N20 engine is good enough to mask the complaints I have about Audi's 2.0 mill - My gut tells me the answer will be 'yes and no.' Then you have all of the '35i cars, which arguably sport the great engine of our time…

For me, this isn't about going fast - it's about HOW the car behaves in day to day traffic. I'm the sort of person who can derive great enjoyment of the collective 'little things' that come together to form a driving experience.

Going back to the purchase of the A4… Part of me wishes I held out longer to find a properly equipped E91 Sport Wagon because the driving experience was really sublime. Not the fastest car but there was something so effortless about the drivetrain and steering that the A4 doesn't touch. Also thinking about the 335i Cabrio since they're coming down in price.

One of the features of the F30 that really interests me is the Adaptive Drive option - Half of my commute is on obnoxiously rough streets (downtown SF is like Kabul), while the other half is on glassy pavement.

Anyways, it's great to be chatting with you guys again! I'll be doing some test drives soon. Will come back with some impressions - hopefully with a verdict!

 

[Osnabrueck]

And here's a completely un-photoshopped, un HDR'ed pic of the Avant I snapped a few weeks back with, my, phone. Just happened to be out in Napa and the lighting was just right… I immediately thought 'hey it's one of those lifestyle brochure pictures, right in front of me.'

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Stunning shot Osna!

Next time you get such beautiful scenery, put the car like that, but bend down so you are squatting to get a lower 'non-traditional' perspective. It'll allow the car to further fill-up the shot yet keep the background beauty there.

Car looks beautiful!

I can't add much to the discussion as I have only driven the N52, and not had any solid experience with a turbo'ed BMW engine other than a quick 5min test drive a few years ago. I imagine your test drive will give you the answers you seek.

 

[Osnabrueck]

I blew it! Now to find more beautiful scenery…

Checking out the BMW config I'm disappointed to see that the 'Modern' line has been discontinued. Too bad - Modern gave you some really interesting interior color options. A couple looked almost BMW Individual-worthy.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

I blew it! Now to find more beautiful scenery…

Checking out the BMW config I'm disappointed to see that the 'Modern' line has been discontinued. Too bad - Modern gave you some really interesting interior color options. A couple looked almost BMW Individual-worthy.

Since you aren't really interested in a sedan, don't want an SUV, yet still wanting something sporty looking, have you considered the 4er GranCoupe? ... or do you actually use the added utility of the wagon?

 

[Beemer B773ER]

I blew it! Now to find more beautiful scenery…

Shouldn't be too hard. With this beautiful weather, head over to Half Moon Bay for the day!

 

[Osnabrueck]

I've totally considered the 4 GranCoupe! Problem is… it's not out yet.

Plus, when it comes out I'll be paying the 'coupe tax' so I could likely only afford a stripper that's ridiculously under-equipped. I've become spoiled with my blind spot monitoring!

But yes, would totally love the 4 GC. I especially like that it's a hatchback, because I could still load in my road bike in a hurry - one of my favorite things about the Avant.

 

[Rolf]

yea well if you put a 4cylinder in the 2 series (a.k.a. M2) it's going to be even faster. engine sound and/or refinement/characteristics aside and without thinking about anything else, for similar outputs, why wouldn't anyone want a smaller/lighter engine?

If you had a choice between a 4 cylinder engine and a 6 cylinder engine to put into an M2, which one would you choose? A 4 cylinder motor won't necessarily make the car any faster, the current 6 cylinder 3.0 turbo motor has more room for extracting higher outputs than a 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo motor, especially when the output goes beyond 250kW, without seriously compromising the reliability such as with the turbos due to excessive boost. The 4 cylinder may provide a slight weight saving, but knowing experts like BMW they can manage to make a 6 cylinder engine weigh as much as many 4 cylinder engines in the market. The N52 N/A 6 cylinder 3.0 engine weighed only 10kg more than the N52 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo replacement, while the N55 6 cylinder 3.0 turbo weighs about 40kg more than the N52. Altering the damper and spring rates and bushes can make the 6 cylinder car handle just as well as the 4 cylinder.

 

[klier]

^ 6 clinders don't handle as well.
And why are we talking about old engines?
You should be comparing the N55 to the N20. And even then the N20 is about to be replaced by a new engine. And if a possible M 4 cylinder is used in the M2, it will likely be based on the new engine architecture.
It will also destroy the non-tuneable N55.

You can't compare the weight of a BMW I6 with the weight of some random 4 cylinder. Well obviously you can, but it makes little sense. You should be comparing a BMW 4 cylinder with a BMW 6 cylinder. And then, of course, the 4 cylinder will weigh singnificantly less.