Gone off track Excerpts from the "Random Thoughts" thread

[Betty Swollocks]

Guys I appreciate your efforts,but there’s no reasoning with a troll it feeds of such. Please ignore the guy and let’s move on to random stuff he wants to ruin this thread on purpose.

Enjoy your Sunday all.

Why can't you just answer the FIRST question I asked in response to your comment that the Belgian team are "Africans"? On what basis are they African considering they were ALL born in Belgium and are representing Belgium?

 

[martinbo]

Matt, you're not African. You don't get call up the moral high ground.

You know nothing about hovabongza's ethnicity. You are jumping to conclusions.
If an African identifies with the ethnic background of European citizens of AFRICAN descent who the f#ck are you to call them racist. You better hope to high hell that hovabongza isn't - and I think he may well be - a black African.

Don't come here on your high horse. You pillock - you dare insinuate something about me. You have no idea who I went to school with, who my closest associates are and how I conduct myself in a truly racially integrated society. I don't think I ever want to speak to you again.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Matt, you're not African. You don't get call up the moral high ground.

You know nothing about hovabongza's ethnicity. You are jumping to conclusions.
If an African identifies with the ethnic background of European citizens of AFRICAN descent who the f#ck are you to call them racist. You better hope to high hell that hovabongza isn't - and I think he may well be - a black African.

What does hovabongZA's ethnicity have to do with anything? I've no idea what it is, and it makes no difference. How HE identifies Pogba, Lukaku or whomever is irrelevant. If Lukaku identifies as "Belgian" then it's offensive to refer to him as "African". As if they're not proper Belgians. Yes, he's of African descent, but that doesn't make him "African". Did you not even read my quotes from Lukaku talking about this very thing?

“When I was 11 years old, I was playing for the Lièrse youth team, and one of the parents from the other team literally tried to stop me from going on the pitch. He was like, “How old is this kid? Where is his I.D.? Where is he from?”
“I thought, Where am I from? What? I was born in Antwerp. I’m from Belgium.”


“If you don’t like the way I play, that’s fine. But I was born here. I grew up in Antwerp, and Liège and Brussels. I dreamed of playing for Anderlecht. I dreamed of being Vincent Kompany. I’ll start a sentence in French and finish it in Dutch, and I’ll throw in some Spanish or Portuguese or Lingala, depending on what neighbourhood we’re in.”


“I would be surprised if there is a black man in Belgium who says he has never experienced racism. I will tell him he is the biggest liar I have ever met. It’s out there, people don’t fear to say it. Those people are ignorant and uneducated, that’s what I call them.
“You always get the odd occasion when they call you the Belgian of Congolese descent, when you do bad."

Don't come here on your high horse. You pillock - you dare insinuate something about me. You have no idea who I went to school with, who my closest associates are and how I conduct myself in a truly racially integrated society. I don't think I ever want to speak to you again.

I've also grown up in a racially integrated society in the North of England, where people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds are treated as if they're not British despite them being born and bred in the UK and never having set foot in Asia. Racists will take one look at them and say "you're not British, go back to your own country".

My first post on this subject was to simply ask hovabongZA what he meant by saying both Belgian and French teams were "African", despite not a single Belgian player being born outside of Belgium. Why is HE deciding they're African? Of African descent, sure. But "African"? That has very different connotations. If there was a genuine, non-racist reason then why have we yet to see it?

 

[hovabongZA]

Yes I’m a Black African and I still live in a very racially segregated country and that’s why I don’t have time to log onto the internet especially a car forum and discuss what racism is with someone who has no clue what they are talking. Him trying to lecture me on what racism from the other side of the world from the comforts of his keyboard is quite funny.

He seeks to critize,belittle, judge and he is not here to discuss cars and I do no get the respect this forum gives to him his a complete utter *sshole and doesn’t belong on this forum.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

If I would move to Japan with my wife, I am still european. I am still german. And if we have a child there, would I have a problem with my japanese compatriots calling my child a european/german? Me for sure not!

So, Lukaku's parents move from the Congo to Belgium, and he was born in Belgium. He identifies as "Belgian"and not African. Are you saying it's acceptable to call him "African" rather than "Belgian" or "Belgian of African descent"?

 

[martinbo]

Yes I’m a Black African and I still live in a very racially segregated country and that’s why I don’t have time to log onto the internet especially a car forum and discuss what racism is with someone who has no clue what they are talking. Him trying to lecture me on what racism from the other side of the world from the comforts of his keyboard is quite funny.

He seeks to critize,belittle, judge and he is not here to discuss cars and I do no get the respect this forum gives to him his a complete utter *sshole and doesn’t belong on this forum.

Not only did he lecture you but he went on to call you a racist, simply because you made a harmless joke about the obvious ethnicity of players in the French and Belgian sides. Since when is an African identifying with African heritage racist? It's inexcusable.

This has nothing to do with what Lukaku thinks about his nationality. It's about an individual who sees fit to judge others and level the harshest of accusations because they've got their head so stuck up their own arse.

 

[Grosser]

Why does this issue remind me of this....

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[sako97]

Anyways... I hope everyone is having/had a lovely Sunday

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Not only did he lecture you but he went on to call you a racist, simply because you made a harmless joke about the obvious ethnicity of players in the French and Belgian sides.

No. He made a "joke" which could be taken as having a racist subtext, which is why in my first response I didn't judge him or call him a "racist". I asked for clarification as to what he meant by "African", but I didn't get any. He just kept rating me "drama queen". Had he explained the context then it wouldn't have escalated.

Since when is an African identifying with African heritage racist? It's inexcusable.

Had he said "I'm a black African and I see them as Africans rather than European" then things may have been different. I would have said "well in Europe, where black people are seen as the outsiders by some racist people, it can be quite sensitive to call someone "African" when they want to be identified as European, or in this case, "Belgian". But the complete silence only makes things worse.

This has nothing to do with what Lukaku thinks about his nationality. It's about an individual who sees fit to judge others and level the harshest of accusations because they've got their head so stuck up their own arse.

No, this is where we disagree completely. It's got EVERYTHING to do with what Lukaku thinks about his nationality. He regards himself as Belgian, not African. He's representing Belgium in the World Cup for God's sake. He's gone on record saying that, and I've quoted him several times in this thread. Racists in Belgium don't regard him as Belgian because he's black, despite Belgium being the country of his birth and where he grew up. Imagine growing up and never feeling you fit in because people think you don't belong? What about his children? Where does it end?

Had hovabongZA explained the context of his post and actually responded, I would have appreciated HIS perspective being a black South African, but without that context all I can go on is the words he wrote.

This is very similar to Mo Farah and Bradley Wiggins competing for Great Britain. Mo Farah was born in Somalia but grew up in the UK. Bradley Wiggins was born in Belgium. Both exactly the same, yet guess which one gets the most abuse?

Link:
How Mo Farah rejected the "plastic Brit" charge

"This is where I grew up, this is where I started life. This is my country and when I put on my Great Britain vest I'm proud. I'm very proud". - Mo Farah


Why don't you tell Mo Farah he's "African".

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Obviously emotions are running high, @martinbo, but I am genuinely interested in how you see yourself in South Africa. You're white. Presumably you're of European descent? So have you ever been told you're not a "proper" South African? Have you ever been told you're European?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Yes I’m a Black African and I still live in a very racially segregated country and that’s why I don’t have time to log onto the internet especially a car forum and discuss what racism is with someone who has no clue what they are talking. Him trying to lecture me on what racism from the other side of the world from the comforts of his keyboard is quite funny.

You know racism isn't just the preserve of South Africa, don't you? So whilst I admit I don't have any experience of South Africa and the issues YOU may or may not have, I DO have LOTS of experience of the issues black and people of Asian descent have in Europe, and that's what we're discussing here. The sheer arrogance of you saying I have no clue what I'm talking about?

 

[Giannis]

He made a "joke" which could be taken as having a racist subtext,

If you don't get a joke, just move on. There's no point in blowing it out of proportions!

Had he said "I'm a black African and I see them as Africans rather than European" then things may have been different.

Why should anyone have to provide a full background of his life in order to make a joke or say something?

 

[martinbo]

You're drawing attention from the issue at hand @Betty Swollocks with meaningless anecdotes. Skirting the issue that you accused someone wrongly of being a racist. Then you proceeded to smear me while you were on your misguided crusade.

Don't question me about my life, it's none of your business any longer.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

If you don't get a joke, just move on. There's no point in blowing it out of proportions!

What if the joke could be seen as racist? Ignore it then?

Why should anyone have to provide a full background of his life in order to make a joke or say something?

Because we're all from different parts of the world, and things can be misconstrued, misunderstood, misinterpreted. What hovabongZA said might be quite innocent on his part, but taken out of context without knowing someone's intentions, it could have been seen as racist. Rather than come out accusing him of being racist, I asked him what he meant. He not only ignored me, he goaded me by rating posts as "funny".

Don't blame me if I then stop giving him the benefit of the doubt, Giannis.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

You're drawing attention from the issue at hand @Betty Swollocks with meaningless anecdotes. Skirting the issue that you accused someone wrongly of being a racist. Then you proceeded to smear me while you were on your misguided crusade.

No I didn't. I asked someone to clarify what they meant to as not to jump to conclusions that they were racist. Their response to that gave me reason to believe they meant what they said in a pejorative way.

As for "smearing" you. I don't think for one second you're racist, or that you have a malicious bone in your body. What I think you're guilty of is disregarding how something can have different connotations in other parts of the world.

Don't question me about my life, it's none of your business any longer.

OK. Well I'm genuinely sad you feel like that. I regarded you as a friend. Sounds silly when we've never met, but hey ho.

Think about this. Maybe you don't realise how certain things can be interpreted in different parts of the world. I can tell you, to call the Belgian and French teams "African" and not Belgian or French, is highly offensive. I literally live minutes from the Belgian border and count many Belgians as colleagues and friends. I know what I'm talking about. I grew up for 18 years in an area of the UK with one of the highest proportions of people of a non-white background. I know many people who've been told to "go back to their own country", or asked "where they're from", even though they're British. If you called them anything other than "British" they'd be highly offended.

Was it really so difficult for hovabongZA to respond after I explained why it's quite offensive here to say the things he did?

Of course it wasn't.

 

[DjordjeC63]

Why does this issue remind me of this....

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What about this one?

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[Betty Swollocks]

@martinbo

When a post is made that could have come from the leader of a French far-right organisation, then I don't think it's unreasonable to seek clarification as to the meaning. That's all I was doing. Maybe you're oblivious as to the seriousness of it, but the issue of the "Frenchness" of Les Bleus has been a sensitive issue for the last twenty years.

I could quote several articles to highlight my point, but I think this one sums it up best:

Link: "We Are Frenchmen", says Thuram, as Le Pen bemoans the number of black players.
Thuram attacks ignorant Le Pen

"When we take to the field, we do so as Frenchmen. All of us. When people were celebrating our win, they were celebrating us as Frenchmen, not black men or white men. It doesn't matter if we're black or not, because we're French. I've just got one thing to say to Jean Marie Le Pen. The French team are all very, very proud to be French. If he's got a problem with us, that's down to him but we are proud to represent this country. So Vive la France, but the true France. Not the France that he wants." - Lilian Thuram


I'm accepting that @hovabongZA didn't mean anything vicious with his comment, but your intransigence in accepting that, in my part of the World at least, what he said could be seen as offensive is baffling. It would have also been nice if hovabongZA could have engaged in an adult discussion instead of just responding with a "drama queen" or "funny" rating every single time; maybe it could have avoided any misunderstandings.

 

[chonkoa]

I hate that the two African countries will have to meet each other in the semi finals ...Belgium vs France

And your point is???
Your veiled point is blatantly obvious..

 

[chonkoa]

Which is why my first response to HovabongZA's post was to ask him to clarify what he meant so as to not get the wrong end of the stick. Bearing in mind EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the Belgian squad was born in Belgium, it seemed a strange thing to make a joke about Belgium being an "African team". Why Africa? What on Earth does Africa have to do with the Belgian squad? It's not like Switzerland where several members of their squad were originally born in Kosovo and came to Switzerland as immigrant children escaping the Balkans war. Then I would understand why someone might joke the Swiss team is actually a Kosovan team.

He chose to not respond. You'd have thought he would want to avoid any misunderstanding and any sign of racism, wouldn't you?

So, I would really like to know what HovabongZA meant when he said Belgium are an "African team"? If he was under the misunderstanding that the team was made up of people who had moved to Belgium as children, or that they "assumed" Belgian citizenship as adults, then surely me pointing out to him that not a single one was born outside of Belgium, he would have said "oh, I didn't realise, in that case the joke doesn't work". But he didn't. He just rated my post as "funny".

I agree.

 

[Grosser]

What about this one?

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Nah, this is better:

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