Gone off track Excerpts from the "Random Thoughts" thread

[Betty Swollocks]

I agree.

A few days have passed and I'm still genuinely upset how this thread ended. I haven't stopped thinking about the argument, to be honest and I feel quite sad about it all.

I'm perplexed as to how it escalated in the way it did. From my point of view, @hovabongZA made, what in my part of the world, would be a highly offensive joke. Rather than jump to conclusions, I accepted that people with different cultural backgrounds see things differently, so I tried to find out the context in which it was said, and what was meant by it. I asked SIX TIMES without a single response other than to rate me "funny" and "drama queen".

@martinbo said I knew nothing about @hovabongZA, which it true, and which is WHY I was asking for the context in which the joke was made.

As for the joke being racist, it most certainly is in Europe, and I've provided numerous examples of why it is racist. I've quoted footballers explaining why to call them anything other than "French" or "Belgian" is wrong. I've explained (and provided links) that for the last twenty years, Les Bleus have been faced with accusations of not being "French" from racists. I've quoted the French National Front saying that they regard the French footballers as not French, but African. I've explained that I know many Belgians and that I live five minutes from the Belgian/Dutch border, and there are a hardcore number of people who won't support the Belgian national team because there are players in it who they consider African and not Belgian.

I really don't know what else I can do. I've had the context in which the joke was made explained to me, which is all I was ever after. Why can't they accept that something which was a throwaway comment can have much more serious connotations elsewhere, and all I was trying to do was to clarify what was meant?

 

[chonkoa]

A few days have passed and I'm still genuinely upset how this thread ended. I haven't stopped thinking about the argument, to be honest and I feel quite sad about it all.

I'm perplexed as to how it escalated in the way it did. From my point of view, @hovabongZA made, what in my part of the world, would be a highly offensive joke. Rather than jump to conclusions, I accepted that people with different cultural backgrounds see things differently, so I tried to find out the context in which it was said, and what was meant by it. I asked SIX TIMES without a single response other than to rate me "funny" and "drama queen".

@martinbo said I knew nothing about @hovabongZA, which it true, and which is WHY I was asking for the context in which the joke was made.

As for the joke being racist, it most certainly is in Europe, and I've provided numerous examples of why it is racist. I've quoted footballers explaining why to call them anything other than "French" or "Belgian" is wrong. I've explained (and provided links) that for the last twenty years, Les Bleus have been faced with accusations of not being "French" from racists. I've quoted the French National Front saying that they regard the French footballers as not French, but African. I've explained that I know many Belgians and that I live five minutes from the Belgian/Dutch border, and there are a hardcore numb...

He/She could have easily explained themselves especially when there is the potential of misunderstanding the context.It does not matter if the person making the comment is African.
So tomorrow's England vs Croatia should be branded a European team vs an African team then? Utterly ridiculous-SMH.

In my mind that original comment was a throw back to the demos vs ethnos debate. I do not subscribe and never will subscribe to the ethnos side of the debate.
I get the same comment from some friends and far as I am concerned if you ascribe to the values and ideals of the country, then end of story.

 

[klier]

I have re-read this thread three times now.
On to the next to try and understand.....

 

[martinbo]

I have been busy and will respond in due course.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Since when is an African identifying with African heritage racist? It's inexcusable.

The problem is, on an anonymous forum you don't have context. And without any context it wasn't an African identifying with African heritage. It was a "joke" that is often made by many racists. What I was trying to do is FIND OUT THE CONTEXT, Martin. Six times, as it happens.

If an African identifies with the ethnic background of European citizens of AFRICAN descent who the f#ck are you to call them racist.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the all-European men's final at Wimbledon tomorrow.

 

[hovabongZA]

Well done to France . One of the best World Cup finals I’ve watched in a long time.

 

[BMW3GT]

^Hahaha DD

 

[sako97]

Well done to France . One of the best World Cup finals I’ve watched in a long time.

Don't want this thread to go sideways again like it did last week... but as a Frenchman with in-laws from Francophone African nations, it's a large part true... However, we just need to recognize that these players are French citizens playing for their national team. Many have never step foot in their ancestor's nations in Africa.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

However, we just need to recognize that these players are French citizens playing for their national team. Many have never step foot in their ancestor's nations in Africa.

@hovabongZA is just trolling. He's rated YOUR post as "informative" despite the fact that I've told him the exact same thing in the "off-topic" thread last week. What he is doing is perpetuating a racist joke which is repeated by far-right nationalists in France. I've posted links to quotes by French footballers who say they regard themselves as "French". Why the mods are not stepping in to stop this, I have no idea.

@martinbo
@Giannis
@Monster

What the Hell is wrong with you? Take one look at Twitter this morning and you will see this very "joke" being made by racists in France.

"When we take to the field, we do so as Frenchmen. All of us. When people were celebrating our win, they were celebrating us as Frenchmen, not black men or white men. It doesn't matter if we're black or not, because we're French. I've just got one thing to say to Jean Marie Le Pen. The French team are all very, very proud to be French. If he's got a problem with us, that's down to him but we are proud to represent this country. So Vive la France, but the true France. Not the France that he wants." - Lilian Thuram

Thuram attacks ignorant Le Pen

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Far-right opportunism
Zidane and Mbappé bookend a couple of decades where the ethnic make-up of the national team has come under fierce scrutiny, often taking worryingly racist forms.

The far-right leader of the Front National (FN), Jean-Marie Le Pen argued that some the team were “foreigners” who didn’t know how to sing the national anthem.

Marine Le Pen, the new leader of the FN party—since then renamed Rassemblement National—waded into the fray arguing that the problem with the national team was down to them having “another nationality in their hearts.”

Link
France’s World Cup success masks underlying racial and class tensions at home

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Discrimination raciale, un héritage français

"La discrimination raciale existe. Elle est inscrite dans les schémas mentaux français : l’altérité de la couleur de peau, un héritage colonial mal digéré, une vision culturaliste de la France en sont des facteurs puissants. Elle a été renforcée par l’agitation politique des années lepénistes - certes sans véritable conséquence dans le droit français mais avec un fort impact psychologique «désintégrateur» : le débat sur la nationalité, avec la volonté de remettre en cause le droit du sol au profit d’un droit du sang «gaulois» ; la crispation sur l’islam, avec le rejet du voile et des mosquées ; l’affirmation d’une politique d’immigration choisie, renvoyant en miroir aux Français issus de l’immigration le stigmate de «Français subis»."

Translated:

Racial discrimination exists. It is inscribed in the French mental schemas: the otherness of the skin color, a poorly digested colonial heritage, a culturalist vision of France are powerful factors. It was reinforced by the political agitation of the Le Penist years - certainly without any real consequence in the French law but with a strong psychological impact "disintegrator": the debate on the nationality, with the will to question the right of the ground to the profit a "Gallic" blood right; the clash over Islam, with the rejection of the veil and mosques; the affirmation of a chosen immigration policy, mirroring to the French of immigrant background the stigma of "French suffered".

 

[Betty Swollocks]

@martinbo
@Giannis
@Monster

Don't be fooled into thinking this is now anything other than @hovabongZA trolling me using a trope that he has been told, many times, is racist in France. This is about him trying to provoke me. He posts that "joke" knowing full well the connotations it has? If somebody told me I'd posted something that was very racist in certain parts of the World, I would be horrified. I wouldn't then continue to post it!!

Ask yourself this. Why did he just rate @sako97 's post as "informative" when he has been told SEVERAL times last week the EXACT same thing that @sako97 has just told him?

It's an utter disgrace.

 

[klier]

Jesus f#ckING CHRIST

 

[Betty Swollocks]

@hovabongZA

Answer me two questions.

1) Why did you rate @sako97 as "informative" when I have been saying the exact same thing last week?

2) Why are you knowingly posting a "joke" which you have been told is racist in France, and which the French players themselves have voiced their strong dislike?

"When we take to the field, we do so as Frenchmen. All of us. When people were celebrating our win, they were celebrating us as Frenchmen, not black men or white men. It doesn't matter if we're black or not, because we're French. I've just got one thing to say to Jean Marie Le Pen. The French team are all very, very proud to be French. If he's got a problem with us, that's down to him but we are proud to represent this country. So Vive la France, but the true France. Not the France that he wants." - Lilian Thuram

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Jesus f$%kING CHRIST

What's your point Klier? Do you think it's acceptable to post "jokes" that the French players would find highly offensive?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

@hovabongZA is deliberately doing this to provoke me over fractious encounters going back over the last couple of months. That is why he rated @sako97 as "informative" despite him only repeating what I said in the other thread last week!!

He hasn't got an answer to anything I challenge him on. He just rates my posts as "Drama Queen".

@hovabongZA Answer the questions!!

 

[hovabongZA]

3 more to go.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

How is posting a "joke" that is so racially controversial that it is used by the French far-right, acceptable?

@hovabongZA knows this yet he has still done it.

@sako97 has pointed out the sensitivity of it.

I have repeatedly told him it's racist in France.

And yet he is just making a big joke out of it.

 

[hovabongZA]

@hovabongZA is deliberately doing this to provoke me over fractious encounters going back over the last couple of months. That is why he rated @sako97 as "informative" despite him only repeating what I said in the other thread last week!!

He hasn't got an answer to anything I challenge him on. He just rates my posts as "Drama Queen".

@hovabongZA Answer the questions!!

You know what before I say something that I’m going to regret and for the sake of the forum I’m going to put you on my ignore list. Think that will be better for the both of us ...you won’t have to see my “ racist” post anymore. See how you going to get your rocks off then.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

You know what before I say something that I’m going to regret and for the sake of the forum I’m going to put you on my ignore list. Think that will be better for the both of us ...you won’t have to see my “ racist” post anymore. See how you going to get your rocks off then.

The "ignore" function doesn't work like that.


How is posting a "joke" that is so racially controversial that it is used by the French far-right, acceptable?

You have been told this yet you still posted it.

@sako97 has pointed out the sensitivity of it.

I have repeatedly told you it's racist in France.

And yet you're still making a big joke out of it.