Epic battle: Carmagazine goes to N-ring with Nissan GTR and Porsche 997 GT3

[Mr Robert]

Those numbers I accept and I agree with.

The best ZO6 numbers I have seen have been 3.6 sec to 100 km/h and 11.8 sec to 200 km/h, so that is well within this ballpark.

Remember that there is a great difference between 0-100 km/h and 0-60 mph.

 

[Mr Robert]

and I have a problem with factory times since you have no idea if its a pre-production car or if the car will be exactly like this when it reach the open market. You can use factory times but when you want to compare with other cars , its just pointless. Different driver, different skill.
Sportauto is the best when you want to compare times with other cars, since they use the same driver.

I agree. Factory times are worth nothing in comparing with other factory times or with times set by independent testers as Sport Auto. Factory times are pure marketing, nothing else...

 

[Zafiro]

I agree. Factory times are worth nothing in comparing with other factory times or with times set by independent testers as Sport Auto. Factory times are pure marketing, nothing else...

Next issue of Sportauto will feature the mighty Nissan GTR (June, 19th). Rumours says, its nowhere near Nissan claim about 7.29 min . Also apparently the gearbox was no good either, too jerky.

 

[Zafiro]

German AMS have tried the GTR:

0-100km/h: 4.1s
0-200km/h: 13.3s

Launch control arent available for European version.

 

[Zafiro]

I now have the laptimes from Carmagazine. Close, very close.

GT3: 7:49 min
GT-R: 7:51 min

I dont know the name of the driver but he is independent and a pro driver.


I think Sportauto also getting somewhere around 7.50 min for GTR.

 

[Mr Robert]

German AMS have tried the GTR:

0-100km/h: 4.1s
0-200km/h: 13.3s

Launch control arent available for European version.

No LC must mean they have understood that there is something very wrong with the gearbox, right?

 

[Mr Robert]

I now have the laptimes from Carmagazine. Close, very close.

GT3: 7:49 min
GT-R: 7:51 min

I dont know the name of the driver but he is independent and a pro driver.


I think Sportauto also getting somewhere around 7.50 min for GTR.

Still, that is nine seconds more for the GT3 than both Sport Auto and Porsche managed. I think it is possible for SA to polish those nine seconds of those 7:51 for the GT-R as well.

They did a 7:50 before but then there was a damp section of curves on the track. I'm guessing SA will manage at least 7:45.

 

[CarGuy]

Remember that there is a great difference between 0-100 km/h and 0-60 mph.

Yep usually for all cars +/- 0.1 sec.

 

[Sunny]

I now have the laptimes from Carmagazine. Close, very close.

GT3: 7:49 min
GT-R: 7:51 min

I dont know the name of the driver but he is independent and a pro driver.


I think Sportauto also getting somewhere around 7.50 min for GTR.

Do you know what tires the GTR was on? Dunlops or Bridgestones? The dunlop SP Sport 600s are supposed to be 5 secs faster than the Bridgestone RE070s. I sometime back predicted high 7:40s on Bridgestones and low 7:40s on Dunlops.

 

[Zafiro]

I have no info regarding tyres but I read that Andy (driver) said 99% of the race was perfect and he did only one miss during the race with the GTR. So I take it if he did the lap 100% correct, the Nissan would be slighly quicker than 7.51 min.

 

[Mr Robert]

Yep usually for all cars +/- 0.1 sec.

From what I have seen in tests it could be a lot more, depending on the gearing of the car.

Another interesting thing is that some American magazines measure with roll out.

 

[CarGuy]

Yeah I never get that, and they usually get that 0.3 sec better time every time. Edmunds does this all the time and I understand this is really not good for the transmission as it causes extra effort at launch, which is responsible for more wear and tear.

 

[Guibo]

I have no info regarding tyres but I read that Andy (driver) said 99% of the race was perfect and he did only one miss during the race with the GTR. So I take it if he did the lap 100% correct, the Nissan would be slighly quicker than 7.51 min.

From what I read, he said only 99% of his lines were perfect. That does not mean a 99% optimum lap; getting the line right is only part of the equation.

Here's more posted on a Supra forum:
"CAR Magazine test results on the Nurburgring (Driver Andy Gulden):

2010 GTR - 7:51.08*
Porsche GT3 Series 2 (3.8) - 7:49.91*

* Times were measured over a full lap, not from the end of the pits to the start of the pits.

Obviously the times are a product of the driver, the conditions (some road works, damp patches) and the amount of practice. With the GT3 he had one practice lap and one hot lap. With the 2010 GTR, he had just one hot lap, 'I was unfamiliar with the car and I'm not used to RHD.'"

So, not a good example to compare against Nissan's claim. The implication in Gulden's statement is that he has had some prior experience in the Porsche. The important thing to extract is that even though the GT-R was completely new to him and RHD, he set basically the same lap time as he did with the GT3. Meanwhile, Porsche still insists a 14-second difference between these two cars.

 

[Mr Robert]

So, not a good example to compare against Nissan's claim.

But it is one of the very few we have. All tims that I have seen (manufacturer times does obviously not count as they are never trustworthy) indicates a time around 7:50. I think this could be a bit lower. Like I said before, SA will probably end up with a time of just over 7:40 all depending on what tyres are used.

 

[Sunny]

Here's more posted on a Supra forum:
"CAR Magazine test results on the Nurburgring (Driver Andy Gulden):

2010 GTR - 7:51.08*
Porsche GT3 Series 2 (3.8) - 7:49.91*

* Times were measured over a full lap, not from the end of the pits to the start of the pits.

Obviously the times are a product of the driver, the conditions (some road works, damp patches) and the amount of practice. With the GT3 he had one practice lap and one hot lap. With the 2010 GTR, he had just one hot lap, 'I was unfamiliar with the car and I'm not used to RHD.'"

Yea RHD thing is huge. I doubt anyone could just go from LHD to RHD or other way and produce a competitive time. I think it goes to show how easy the GTR is go fast in, that he could do a lap literally as fast as the GT3 on the first time lap sitting on the wrong side.

Also if it is a full lap we can't really compare it to Sport Auto supertest times since they don't do a full lap.

During the industry testing sessions in which sport auto records its "Supertest", the track can not be traveled at full speed past "Tribüne 13" (T13, grandstand 13) in order to allow safe access from the old exit/entrance there. The missing 232 m (760 ft) uphill section, from a slow right hand corner, would take in average an extra 7 s compared to a full lap.

I wonder what lap times the manufacturer's use. I doubt if it is a full lap cause I am guessing even they test during "industry testing sessions" and can't go past T13 at speed. or it could be different from manufacturer to manufacturer making those lap times even more meaningless.

 

[Mr Robert]

This could very well account for a good deal of the differences between some manufacturer times and times managed by independent testers. If SA runs their laps in the open track industry sessions and some manufacturers lease the whole track for their testing you will have differences and if you add the always suspected marketing driven tweaking and use of non-standard equipment, well, there it is.

I did not find going from LHD to RHD a huge problem, if you exclude the part about changing gear

 

[Mr Robert]

With the GT3 he had one practice lap and one hot lap. With the 2010 GTR, he had just one hot lap, 'I was unfamiliar with the car and I'm not used to RHD.'"

I just have to say; if they set out to do a comparison on the ring between the two cars, why did they do it as slobby as this? This is almost as if they had not done it at all.

Well, I guess we will have to wait for Sport Auto to do a proper test, at least they have drivers that have used the GT-R before and from what I know they do not limit themselves to one try at anything.

 

[Laurent T]

Next issue of Sportauto will feature the mighty Nissan GTR (June, 19th). Rumours says, its nowhere near Nissan claim about 7.29 min . Also apparently the gearbox was no good either, too jerky.

Strange, Sport Auto seemed rather enthusiast about the Spec-V as far as I could understand the article. Source ?

 

[CarGuy]

I predict 7:45 for the GT-R. And the GT3 apparently did 7:40, so GT3 slightly faster by about 2 of the 172 corners.

 

[Guibo]

I wonder what lap times the manufacturer's use. I doubt if it is a full lap cause I am guessing even they test during "industry testing sessions" and can't go past T13 at speed. or it could be different from manufacturer to manufacturer making those lap times even more meaningless.

Porsche does tend to release their lap times when taken during industry test sessions. Rohrl even seemed to boast about the GT2's fastest lap, which he set while passing 11 cars and just missing an unwary A3 driver while going 310 kph. The most recent time for the updated GT3 and their time for the Scuderia occurred with traffic. And it's likely they did the same when testing the GT-R, which probably accounts for much of the time differential from Nissan which tested on a closed track, going full-tilt through all sections; the pit straight was omitted per Sport Auto testing practices though.



Going from LHD to RHD would IMO definitely be a problem if you're trying to go at 100% for a single hot lap. This diminishes the confidence factor that you'd really need on the 'Ring. The driver felt it was important enough to mention, so probably counts for something. As to why Car did the test this way, it's probably a matter of logistics. Porsche are no doubt keen to promote the newish GT3, and Car managed to wrangle a UK-spec GT-R which they drove down to the 'Ring.
Sport Auto "proper test" would only be valuable in benchmarking other cars using the same procedure and would likely not tell us too much about the (in)validity of Nissan's claim, much like this test.