DTM DTM and Touring Racing Discussion Thread

[M.N.D]

Greetings everyone...

I'm not sure if there are many members on GCF who follow DTM, but today was the final round of the 2017 season that took place on the Hockenheimring, so I though it would be nice to share some.

Audi team Rosberg rookie Rene Rast won the drivers championship, beating fellow Audi drivers Mattias Ekström (2nd overall place), Jamie Green (3rd), and Mike Rockenfeller (4th).

BMW driver and 2016 champion Marco Wittmann won the race and ended 5th in overall standings.

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Audi was clearly dominant this season, by taking all three titles (drivers, team, and manufacturers).

I felt that Mercedes has somehow lost their will to fight in the last three races, in addition to their decision by leaving the series all together in 2019, which is a bit unfortunate.

Unfortunately for us BMW fans, the strategy this year was off the mark, with mistakes here and there that cost them both the drivers and the manufacturers titles.

On a personal note, I think this season somehow provided a better product, due to some new regulations that helped to increase the on-track action to some degree, such as reducing the effectiveness of the car's aerodynamics (reducing aero grip), using a more aggressive tire compound that degrades quicker, removing tire warmers, doing away with the weight penalty (not sure if this is good or bad), and a longer pit stop strategy.

All of this sounds nice and a step in the right direction, but I believe that the organizers are not quire there yet, as some shortcomings (for me at least) are still there, but things cannot be fixed in a single step I guess...

Finally, it looks like that the collaboration between DTM and Super GT is being considered more seriously (hopefully)

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[KiwiRob]

Next year will be pretty sad with Mercedes exiting. It's about time the DTM and SuperGT finally gots there acts together and allowed the cars to run in each series, it's basically the same car. DTM will be dead come 2019 with only BMW and Audi racing, they need the Japanese.

 

[M.N.D]

Next year will be pretty sad with Mercedes exiting. It's about time the DTM and SuperGT finally gots there acts together and allowed the cars to run in each series, it's basically the same car. DTM will be dead come 2019 with only BMW and Audi racing, they need the Japanese.

Mercedes will stay in DTM for the 2018 season, so maybe there is still something to fight for in the next season.

Even though Mercedes started strong at the beginning of the season back in May, their performance and consistency somehow faded during the season, with their front man Lucas Auer suffering from several retirements, and the drivers failing to secure pole position for a significant number of races, as overtaking from mid positions is still not that easy in DTM (2017 was better than previous years, however).

I hope the unification of Class One will take effect on 2019, as this could positively (and hopefully) help to boost the series in many directions.

 

[Matski]

It's about time the DTM and SuperGT finally gots there acts together and allowed the cars to run in each series,

It's not quite as simple as that, DTM is dragging its feet with the adoption of the Class One rules, SuperGT have already started using them - the framework for them being allowed in each others series is already there. Engine development in the DTM is a slow process and it's pretty much simply a spec V8 they use so there isn't much room for movement anyway. Comparatively the 2-litre turbos used in SGT are much more highly developed as there are apparently less developmental restrictions... this is the biggest obstacle the DTM manufacturers need to overcome - and it's one that simply comes down to cost. Hopefully Mercedes leaving will be the kick in the pants BMW and Audi need to start developing their 2.0 Turbos, they've had 5 years already.

 

[M.N.D]

It's not quite as simple as that, DTM is dragging its feet with the adoption of the Class One rules, SuperGT have already started using them - the framework for them being allowed in each others series is already there. Engine development in the DTM is a slow process and it's pretty much simply a spec V8 they use so there isn't much room for movement anyway. Comparatively the 2-litre turbos used in SGT are much more highly developed as there are apparently less developmental restrictions... this is the biggest obstacle the DTM manufacturers need to overcome - and it's one that simply comes down to cost. Hopefully Mercedes leaving will be the kick in the pants BMW and Audi need to start developing their 2.0 Turbos, they've had 5 years already.

That is a quite good point of view. I also agree that DTM organizers have been wasting some time trying to adopt Class One, since talks have been held since 2014, where they set a deadline of 2018 to adopt the new 2.0 Turbo engines format, which was delayed to at least 2019.

BMW stated several times that budget should be controlled, or otherwise the series will turn into an arms race, as Audi seems to enjoy a somewhat open account to spend on developing their cars.

I didn't follow Super GT (will start to do so!!), but I've watched some of the races, and it seems a more mature series; the action is top notch, and the competition is quite active. I don't know how they can control the development budget, since this is the most common factor that kills the racing series, but the series looks quite strong, unless you know something that I don't.

I hope that the organizers of DTM (I think they are called ITR) know what they are doing, because I love to see DTM becoming more successful, and more importantly, a highly competitive with fun to watch on track racing series. Mercedes decision's to leave already made me feel skeptical about the future of DTM. I hope that it won't be a dead end on the long term.

 

[Matski]

That is a quite good point of view. I also agree that DTM organizers have been wasting some time trying to adopt Class One, since talks have been held since 2014, where they set a deadline of 2018 to adopt the new 2.0 Turbo engines format, which was delayed to at least 2019.

BMW stated several times that budget should be controlled, or otherwise the series will turn into an arms race, as Audi seems to enjoy a somewhat open account to spend on developing their cars.

Jens Marquardt did an interview on that last week I think, I get what he's saying but it's worth noting that BMW arrived back on the DTM scene in 2012 with a budget of around 60 million euros, outspent everyone*, and picked up all three titles. I'm just not sure that the cost cutting measures will sit well in SuperGT, or allow for parity in the performance of the German cars vs the Japanese cars.

*This is information I was given by a friend of Augusto Farfus, I take it as factual though I don't have anything to back it up.

I didn't follow Super GT (will start to do so!!), but I've watched some of the races, and it seems a more mature series; the action is top notch, and the competition is quite active. I don't know how they can control the development budget, since this is the most common factor that kills the racing series, but the series looks quite strong, unless you know something that I don't.

I don't know much about SuperGT's background either to be honest. Sam Collins from NismoTV / Race car engineering is pretty knowledgeable about it, most of what I know about it I got from listening to him on the commentaries. I think one of the things that helps SGT is the fact it's multi-class, with GT500 and GT300/GT3.

I hope that the organizers of DTM (I think they are called ITR) know what they are doing, because I love to see DTM becoming more successful, and more importantly, a highly competitive with fun to watch on track racing series. Mercedes decision's to leave already made me feel skeptical about the future of DTM. I hope that it won't be a dead end on the long term.

I think it can survive, even if it just went down to Audi vs. BMW for a year or so. I've only been to two DTM races (one at Brands Hatch and one at Zandvoort) and I think they were quite well supported, I've been to other races with much smaller crowds.. so I guess even without the Merc fans there it'll do okay. It's been 20+ years since DTM had more than 3 manufacturers on the grid, so I think people tend to just accept that the DTM grid isn't that varied.

The Class One tie-up will be great for DTM, and if it took Mercedes leaving to finally instigate the move then that's a good thing.

 

[M.N.D]

Jens Marquardt did an interview on that last week I think, I get what he's saying but it's worth noting that BMW arrived back on the DTM scene in 2012 with a budget of around 60 million euros, outspent everyone*, and picked up all three titles. I'm just not sure that the cost cutting measures will sit well in SuperGT, or allow for parity in the performance of the German cars vs the Japanese cars.

*This is information I was given by a friend of Augusto Farfus, I take it as factual though I don't have anything to back it up.

That's nice to know on a side note, Augusto Farfus seems a nice and talented driver, even though I think he would be better for BMW at GT driving than DTM, his wasn't been able to be competitive for quite some time. Maybe he was a bit unlucky.

I don't know much about SuperGT's background either to be honest. Sam Collins from NismoTV / Race car engineering is pretty knowledgeable about it, most of what I know about it I got from listening to him on the commentaries. I think one of the things that helps SGT is the fact it's multi-class, with GT500 and GT300/GT3.

I've wondered if DTM adopted a chassis regulations that are close to group GT3 spec but for touring/coupe cars, and kick it up a notch to provide fast, aggressive looking, and advanced production-based cars that suit their style.

I think it can survive, even if it just went down to Audi vs. BMW for a year or so. I've only been to two DTM races (one at Brands Hatch and one at Zandvoort) and I think they were quite well supported, I've been to other races with much smaller crowds.. so I guess even without the Merc fans there it'll do okay. It's been 20+ years since DTM had more than 3 manufacturers on the grid, so I think people tend to just accept that the DTM grid isn't that varied.

The Class One tie-up will be great for DTM, and if it took Mercedes leaving to finally instigate the move then t...

I hope the series will get stronger and better, and the support seems to be strong as you mentioned, especially at the final race yesterday, where the stands are loaded with spectators (over a hundred thousand, according to the commentators). I just hope that they develop things in a slow-but-sure manner. Too much ambition without being cautious might turn things around. I hope the tie-up with Super GT becomes a successful one, as well.

I can digest the situation of a single battle between BMW and Audi if they can keep exciting racing and improve it even further, and loose the team support strategy that spoil the action (for me at least).

Whatever ( hopefully good) things might result from all of this, would be better for us fans

Now, I need to find a way for to watch the next BTCC season...

 

[Frankie G]

That's nice to know on a side note, Augusto Farfus seems a nice and talented driver, even though I think he would be better for BMW at GT driving than DTM, his wasn't been able to be competitive for quite some time. Maybe he was a bit unlucky.

Speaking of Augusto Farfus, watch how he navigated the 'ring in a BMW M4 DTM last year. Not quite sure why he slowed down at some point but there's some balls-to-the-walls driving going on here. Hats off to the guy

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[M.N.D]

Speaking of Augusto Farfus, watch how he navigated the 'ring in a BMW M4 DTM last year. Not quite sure why he slowed down at some point but there's some balls-to-the-walls driving going on here. Hats off to the guy

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I've seen this video before. Thank you for sharing

It indeed shows how amazing and talented he is, especially when he was describing some stuff to the passenger throughout the way in a very enthusiastic manner. It must've been a blast to ride on board with him.

I've watched him driving the BMW M6 GT3 on several events this year. He was one of the quickest drivers on the BMW squad in Nurburgring 24 hours, and he participated in a number of races in the International GT Open series, in which he was simply unstoppable.

But his last couple of DTM seasons were less than stellar, with failing to win any race, even though he had the chance to start from pole position or some very good position on the grid. Maybe some bad luck, I think.

Anyway, he sure loves to drive fast on the Nordschleife...

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[Matski]

That's nice to know on a side note, Augusto Farfus seems a nice and talented driver, even though I think he would be better for BMW at GT driving than DTM, his wasn't been able to be competitive for quite some time. Maybe he was a bit unlucky.

Yeah, I'm not sure the mechanical/aero grip balance of the DTM car suits his driving style, I always felt he'd was a better touring car racer than anything else, even in his Alfa Romeo days, but he's put in some solid performances in BMW's GT cars over the years as you say. Joey Hand and Andy Priaulx are also great racers who failed to deliver on their potential for BMW in a DTM car. Augusto is also quite a nice guy when you meet him though I've only spoken to him a few times.

Spoiler: Me 'n my boy Gustl!

I've wondered if DTM adopted a chassis regulations that are close to group GT3 spec but for touring/coupe cars, and kick it up a notch to provide fast, aggressive looking, and advanced production-based cars that suit their style.

That'd be a big move, GT car chassis are very different to what's underneath a DTM/SGT car...

DTM:

GT3 bodyshell:

Also, to a degree, GTLM/GTE is already GT3 kicked up a notch. German also has it's own GT series for GT3 spec cars, and I don't think it does very well, I think that might blur DTM's profile a bit... just my two cents though.

 

[M.N.D]

Yeah, I'm not sure the mechanical/aero grip balance of the DTM car suits his driving style, I always felt he'd was a better touring car racer than anything else, even in his Alfa Romeo days, but he's put in some solid performances in BMW's GT cars over the years as you say. Joey Hand and Andy Priaulx are also great racers who failed to deliver on their potential for BMW in a DTM car. Augusto is also quite a nice guy when you meet him though I've only spoken to him a few times.

Spoiler: Me 'n my boy Gustl!

That's cool

Regarding the driving skills for each racing category, you're right. It's the same story but in the opposite direction for other drivers.

Audi driver Jamie Green is a very competitive and fast in DTM (shame he lost the championship yesterday), but his driving skills on the Audi R8 LMS when I saw him in ADAC GT Masters were good, but not what you would expect from him, which proves that racing drivers vary in their skills, depending on the driving dynamics of these different racing cars.

That'd be a big move, GT car chassis are very different to what's underneath a DTM/SGT car...

DTM:

GT3 bodyshell:

Also, to a degree, GTLM/GTE is already GT3 kicked up a notch. German also has it's own GT series for GT3 spec cars, and I don't think it does very well, I think that might blur DTM's profile a bit... just my two cents though.

I know that DTM is actually a silhouette racing, which is why many people complain about the fact that it is not a "true" touring car racing series, but a "prototype" racing car with a design that resembles the road car.

I actually have no problem with that, since as you said there is a good number of touring car racing series around, in addition to the personal assumption of mine that the Germans want to present their flagship racing series as something unique; a top of the line series and not just another production based racing.

What I said about GT3 is that if DTM wanted to keep the Touring factor in the formula, what would be their choices? It could be either the Super 2000 TC1 with a 500-600 horsepower engines and a more aggressive bodywork, or a GT3 spec with modifications for a higher performance envelope.

But then again, it seems they prefer the silhouette format for a higher performance.

 

[Matski]

I think DTM suits people with open-wheeler experience, until yesterday the only Champion in the last decade or so that didn't do open-wheel racing before being the the DTM was Mike Rockenfeller. Rast is obviously a fast and capable driver though.

I personally like the fact that DTM is the prototype racing of the Touring/Grand Touring world, I know a lot of people don't though. I'd pondered a TC1 hook-up when the Mercedes withdrawal announcement came, but I think these days they've got to go with a formula that allows the development costs to be put towards multi-series racing (one of the benefits of class one), a modified GT3 or TC1 rule set probably wouldn't have been any better for them than they'd got with partial adoption of Class One. Like you say, they seem to prefer silhouette style regs, though being cynical, I'd say this is for €€€ reasons more than performance reasons

 

[Matski]

Roughly on topic, Audi and BMW will do a DTM demo run at Motegi for the SGT finale in November. It'll be good to see.

 

[M.N.D]

Roughly on topic, Audi and BMW will do a DTM demo run at Motegi for the SGT finale in November. It'll be good to see.

That's good to know, I'm looking forward to this. Thank you for the info

 

[KiwiRob]

Roughly on topic, Audi and BMW will do a DTM demo run at Motegi for the SGT finale in November. It'll be good to see.

Won't be a lot of fun for the DTM guys, the GT500's run with well over 600hp, the DTM V8's are somewhere in the low 500's. As the demo at Hockenhein last weekend showed the GT500's are a lot faster.

 

[M.N.D]

Won't be a lot of fun for the DTM guys, the GT500's run with well over 600hp, the DTM V8's are somewhere in the low 500's. As the demo at Hockenhein last weekend showed the GT500's are a lot faster.

The difference in performance is quite significant as you mentioned, and as far as I know GT500 cars can lap Fuji circuit in a lap time range that is about 5 seconds slower than LMP1 cars, which is insane, considering that LMP1 cars are 2 million euros plus beasts, with all wheel drive, crazy aerodynamics and almost 1000 HP on tap.

However, I believe this will be more of a "showcase" demonstration, as the intention is to introduce DTM to the Super GT scence. While not on par with GT500, I think DTM cars are fantastic machines with badass looks that match the performance.

I hope things will go in the right direction as long as they know what to do, and how to do it right.

 

[Matski]

Won't be a lot of fun for the DTM guys, the GT500's run with well over 600hp, the DTM V8's are somewhere in the low 500's. As the demo at Hockenhein last weekend showed the GT500's are a lot faster.

It'll still make for good on track photo's, PR, and engaging the Japanese crowd. It's all a positive step even if there is a big disparity between the performance of the car at this stage.

Besides that, they could always whip the 29mmØ restrictors out of the V8's for some more HP if they feel they need to

Since the SGT has a tyre war going on it's also safe to assume that they might be running grippier rubber than the DTM's spec Hankook.

 

[M.N.D]

It'll still make for good on track photo's, PR, and engaging the Japanese crowd. It's all a positive step even if there is a big disparity between the performance of the car at this stage.

Besides that, they could always whip the 29mmØ restrictors out of the V8's for some more HP if they feel they need to

I agree on the first point, and in addition to that, I thought that DTM engines are somehow down on power, as the range of 460~500 horsepower is not what I would expect from a purpose built V8 engine for what is considered to be the top touring racing series.

Since the SGT has a tyre war going on it's also safe to assume that they might be running grippier rubber than the DTM's spec Hankook.

Tyre wars in racing always leave me perplexed. Is it good for the sport, or is it considered as unfair advantage for teams who use the grippier ones?

I still remember the dispute between Michelin and Bridgestone in Formula 1 in the early noughties, and the infamous incident of the 2005 United States grand prix at Indianapolis (didn't watch the race, but remember reading the report in a magazine).

 

[Matski]

I agree on the first point, and in addition to that, I thought that DTM engines are somehow down on power, as the range of 460~500 horsepower is not what I would expect from a purpose built V8 engine for what is considered to be the top touring racing series.

The way I see it... what would be the benefit of making them more powerful, it's already enough to overcome grip, and making them more powerful wouldn't really improve the racing. More power would mean higher likelihood of reliability issues, which means cost.. which they're trying to avoid... and since it's a spec engine, it's not really about whose building the best. Sure, a lot of those things apply to to SGT too, but SGT needs clear performance differentiation between GT500 and the GT300's so they need more HP than standard GT cars.

FWIW I did once here the Merc engine is good for 580hp+ without its restrictors.

Tyre wars in racing always leave me perplexed. Is it good for the sport, or is it considered as unfair advantage for teams who use the grippier ones?

I still remember the dispute between Michelin and Bridgestone in Formula 1 in the early noughties, and the infamous incident of the 2005 United States grand prix at Indianapolis (didn't watch the race, but remember reading the report in a magazine).

I think it's a performance variable, and that is a good thing as it should help prevent processional races, ... though as with anything - that's provided that everyone is on a level(ish) playing field cost wise, and the regulations don't stifle development for others if they are behind. To much spending power and limited development time creates dominance, which is only good for fanboys to gloat about. That's just my opinion though.

USGP '05 was an utter disgrace. The fans have zero control over tyre performance and safety regulations, yet they had to pay a price, especially those track side. Somebody, be it team's, circuit bosses, FOM - or anyone with a say in the situation, should have grown a pair, and put the fans first. I entirely get the safety and risk element, but in motorsport you cannot guarantee safety, you can only mitigate the risk as best as possible. Suggestions were made that could have allowed the race to run, but not everyone would agree - if it was on safety grounds, fair enough... but as soon as it came down to sporting differences the fans should have come first.

 

[Frankie G]

Won't be a lot of fun for the DTM guys, the GT500's run with well over 600hp, the DTM V8's are somewhere in the low 500's. As the demo at Hockenhein last weekend showed the GT500's are a lot faster.

Out of curiosity, what weight do GT500's run with during your typical race?
It would be interesting to watch the outcome of DTM V8's racing GT500's without their air restrictor's. If my memory serves me correct I remember a press briefing some time earlier this year (or was it 2016...) saying the DTM V8's would produce circa 800hp without the restrictor's