DTM DTM and Touring Racing Discussion Thread

[KiwiRob]

TCR won't have RWD and it (I believe) isn't for manufacturers, it's for independent teams, I think they've introduced a "model of the year" title for the cars, but it's still not a manufacturer series... the DTM basically is. I don't mind TCR at all, I just don't think it's right for the DTM....

I guess you missed this announcement. "On 6th December 2017 during the FIA’s World Motorsport Council in Paris, it was approved the formation of the new World Touring Car Cup starting from 2018. The new series would utilize the TCR ruleset, which has been in use in numerous national and international touring car racing series, including TCR International Series. Cars would now have to conform to the new FIA WTCR regulations. As a result of the formation of the WTC Cup both the WTCC in its current format and the TCR International Series would be discontinued immediately".

So now the WTCC cars will be the same as the TCR cars, this must then open up the class RWD.

2008 was one of the best years DTM had from a viewing point of view, and even the reintroduction of BMW to the mix in 2012 didn't get it back up to the level it used to be straightaway... it took 4 years of other sporting regulation and format changes aswell... the races were boring, but the fact there was only two manufacturer was not the sole reason....

Agreed

Aussie V8's is a great series, and if the reports on attendance and viewing figures are apples to apples, then the Aussies trounce the Germans for popularity, both via TV and trackside (although supporting F1 for instance does skew those figures somewhat).
edit to add... not that this should reflect that badly on the DTM, the DTM beats the BTCC in this respect, and the BTCC is still doing better than it ever has....

I'm worried about the future of Supercars now that the local manufacture has ended in Australia and I had really hoped Volvo had stayed, they were super compatitive last season and could have won the driver title and Bathurst. The BTCC was best when they had the Supertouring Cars right after Group A ended, loads of manufacturers, huge crowds and exciting racing.

Yeah Group A was good, I loved Super Touring, and I loved S2000... but as with all formulas, the bubble grows, costs go up, interest goes up, costs go up... repeat until the bubble bursts - it is inevitable because of the prevalence of marginal gains in motorsport. When costs surpass the marketing opportunity, it has to be done for passion (like a the lower end), or i...

Group A was the best period, from everything I've read and been told the WTCC was massively popular, it eclipsed F1 in crowds at the crcuits and on TV, the series lasted a single season then it was cancelled because the FIA and the F1 arseholes didn't like playing second fiddle to touring cars.

 

[Matski]

So now the WTCC cars will be the same as the TCR cars, this must then open up the class RWD.

That doesn't necessarily follow. TCR homolgation specifically rules out rear-wheel drive, and nobody raced in WTCC with RWD since BMW left (if I recall correctly), so there's no reason to assume that FIA WTCR regs will allow it.

Like I say, I've got no problem with TCR, and personally I'd be okay with it if they allowed RWD - accepting the shit storm of complaining and regulations tweaks (read COST) that it introduces.... and I would love there to be a BMW based TCR car.

... but none of that changes my opinion that TCR would be a bad move for the DTM as a series for technical, sporting and commercial reasons.

I'm worried about the future of Supercars now that the local manufacture has ended in Australia and I had really hoped Volvo had stayed, they were super compatitive last season and could have won the driver title and Bathurst.

According to a report this week viewership for 2017 was over 66 million in total. I know the series has had some questions, but I think it's got a strong chance of carrying on - It's good racing, and it's got good marketing opportunities. DTM and BTCC claim about 20 million viewers, and our domestic markets are both larger than V8 Supercars.

The BTCC was best when they had the Supertouring Cars right after Group A ended, loads of manufacturers, huge crowds and exciting racing.

NGTC has done well for the BTCC, the grids, and stands, are still packed, the action is still great - manufacturer involvement is now at a sustainable level.

 

[M.N.D]

TCR won't have RWD and it (I believe) isn't for manufacturers, it's for independent teams, I think they've introduced a "model of the year" title for the cars, but it's still not a manufacturer series... the DTM basically is. I don't mind TCR at all, I just don't think it's right for the DTM.

I guess you missed this announcement. "On 6th December 2017 during the FIA’s World Motorsport Council in Paris, it was approved the formation of the new World Touring Car Cup starting from 2018. The new series would utilize the TCR ruleset, which has been in use in numerous national and international touring car racing series, including TCR International Series. Cars would now have to conform to the new FIA WTCR regulations. As a result of the formation of the WTC Cup both the WTCC in its current format and the TCR International Series would be discontinued immediately".

So now the WTCC cars will be the same as the TCR cars, this must then open up the class RWD.

I believe TCR was formed to make racing more affordable and more accessible to privateers, so I think it's logical to keep manufacturers away from being directly involved; otherwise it'll turn into an arms race, and the series can be ruined.

DTM represents Germany's flagship racing, so the cars need to be sophisticated, powerful, with a high performance envelope. ADAC GT Masters that run GT3 cars, acts as supporting series, and even the FIA Formula 3 Europe series is a supporting series, so this means that a DTM car is even on a higher level than an open wheel car, so I don't think that TCR regulations work for DTM.

@KiwiRob I didn't know that WTCC bit the bullet and adopted TCR regulations. Thanks for sharing . I remember reading an article about WTCC and the changes they needed to help them survive about 4 months ago. One of them was changing from S2000 regulations to TCR regulations, and some drivers objected to do what they called a "downgrade" to a less sophisticated platform. However, just like @Matski said, none of the current WTCC cars is rear wheel drive anyway. As much as I like to see it happen, I doubt seeing an Alfa Giulia, a BMW 3 series, a Cadillac ATS, a Jaguar XE, or a Mercedes C class competing as touring car anytime soon.

2008 was one of the best years DTM had from a viewing point of view, and even the reintroduction of BMW to the mix in 2012 didn't get it back up to the level it used to be straightaway... it took 4 years of other sporting regulation and format changes aswell... the races were boring, but the fact there was only two manufacturer was not the sole reason.

... because DTM has remained at the will of a cartel of manufacturers it hasn't been at the mercy of this cycle so much - less likely to fail, but also less likely to grow.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the chance to follow much motorsports back then other than F1, since it was the only thing that was available on TV where I live. I can only follow reports, which doesn't do much.

To folks who don't follow live races of DTM, looking at the statistics make them think that the series is very dynamic and challenging, but the quality of racing were less than spectacular and some races were boring. This past season of 2017 saw some improvements, which is always a good thing and a step into the right direction.

They need to reduce their reliance on aero grip, increase the mechanical grip, and try to be serious about Class One. Maybe it'll increase the number of manufacturers (GT500 guys) and the racing action will get improved even further.

Aussie V8's is a great series, and if the reports on attendance and viewing figures are apples to apples, then the Aussies trounce the Germans for popularity, both via TV and trackside (although supporting F1 for instance does skew those figures somewhat).
edit to add... not that this should reflect that badly on the DTM, the DTM beats the BTCC in this respect, and the BTCC is still doing better than it ever has.

Sadly, this is another series that I didn't get to follow. Wherever I read about the Aussie Super V8 I see nothing but praising the series and the action.

Yeah Group A was good, I loved Super Touring, and I loved S2000... but as with all formulas, the bubble grows, costs go up, interest goes up, costs go up... repeat until the bubble bursts - it is inevitable because of the prevalence of marginal gains in motorsport. When costs surpass the marketing opportunity, it has to be done for passion (like a the lower end), or it fails, (like LMP1 is as you point out)

I only knew Group A from reading WRC reports back in the 90's. However, I agree with what you said here

NGTC has done well for the BTCC, the grids, and stands, are still packed, the action is still great - manufacturer involvement is now at a sustainable level.

I'm still waiting to figure out how can I follow the series

 

[Matski]

For what the DTM could/should/would be now, we can look at the Euro V8 series / Italian V8 Superstars / International V8 Superstars championship from a few years ago....

... sadly this is a series that died on the vine.

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[M.N.D]

That look(ed) amazing, and I didn't know about such series. The bodywork and the aero package look similar to the V8 Supercars, simple yet good looking package.

Too bad it was discontinued...

 

[KiwiRob]

For what the DTM could/should/would be now, we can look at the Euro V8 series / Italian V8 Superstars / International V8 Superstars championship from a few years ago....

... sadly this is a series that died on the vine.

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I watched this series, it was always good racing. What would have been really good is if they had worked with the Aussies and merged the rules, that would have been something special IMO.

 

[Matski]

It was a great series, I was lucky enough to catch it in its 'international V8' iteration at Donington. The highlight of that event for me was meeting Roberto Ravaglia, but despite the lower number of competitors than expected, and some awful weather, I really enjoyed it.

Link to photos -> V8 Superstars, Donington, Jun '11 (this was early on in my hobby of photography )

Wish it would have carried on, and with M vs AMG vs RS, with road cars, I think it really represented what the DTM should have been.

 

[M.N.D]

Finally we're in 2018! The racing season is becoming closer, which means some activities and news, so I can find some excuses to give this thread and the Sportscars one a bump

Peugeot has released the "official" TCR version of the 308 GTi.

Peugeot unveils new 308TCR for 2018 WTCR season

Just like @KiwiRob mentioned earlier, the TCR has been officially adopted as the racing type for the successor of the defunct WTCC, the World Touring Car Cup, abbreviated as WTCR, which also replaces the TCR International series.

Although the retiring of the WTCC means the Super 2000 formula will be retired, I think it's better to have a unified touring class to make things simpler, add to that the competitive nature of TCR cars with a good quality racing, unlike the recent years of WTCC with the domination of Citroen, as claimed by the organizers of the new WTCR that about 20 racers will have a chance to win in every race (from a previous article mentioned in the link above). Hopefully other brands will be interested enough to offer something (BMW 1 series hatchback, Mercedes A Class).

 

[Matski]

Although the retiring of the WTCC means the Super 2000 formula will be retired, I think it's better to have a unified touring class to make things simpler, add to that the competitive nature of TCR cars with a good quality racing, unlike the recent years of WTCC with the domination of Citroen, as claimed by the organizers of the new WTCR that about 20 racers will have a chance to win in every race (from a previous article mentioned in the link above). Hopefully other brands will be interested enough to offer something (BMW 1 series hatchback, Mercedes A Class).

I went off S2000 once it went the way of 1.6 turbos, I much preferred the 2 litre NA's.

There's an outfit in the USA preparing a Mini TCR car (LAP Motorsport), I wonder if the adoption of the regs by the WTCC/WTCR will gain more factory interest from BMW to support this project.

 

[KiwiRob]

I went off S2000 once it went the way of 1.6 turbos, I much preferred the 2 litre NA's.

There's an outfit in the USA preparing a Mini TCR car (LAP Motorsport), I wonder if the adoption of the regs by the WTCC/WTCR will gain more factory interest from BMW to support this project.

Any idea what body they are going to use? The 3/5 door would be too short, the Countryman would be all wrong, which leaves the Clubman??

 

[Matski]

Any idea what body they are going to use? The 3/5 door would be too short, the Countryman would be all wrong, which leaves the Clubman??

Clubman is most likely in my opinion... this is a quote from the article I saw;

“We started the project thinking we’d run the hard-top four-door, but that’s a bit of a challenge because the car is shorter than what the regs require, although we do understand that there are several cars in TCR that haven’t met that requirement.

“MINI still has other cars like the Clubman that fits right into the regs… At the end of the day, what does MINI want to do?

“[TCR cars] are built to regs so every car will be competitive so we’re not worried about which car we build.”

The arrangement figures to be a boon for the LAP outfit, which would find itself slotted in as the exclusive constructor of all MINI TCR race cars internationally.

“The way TCR regs work, there’s one car builder per brand,” Perocarpi said. “That car builder has to have manufacturer support. Anyone who wants to buy a MINI, they would end up having to buy it from us.

Link -> http://sportscar365.com/imsa/ctscc/lap-motorsports-spearheading-mini-tcr-project/

 

[M.N.D]

I went off S2000 once it went the way of 1.6 turbos, I much preferred the 2 litre NA's.

Unfortunately I can't comment on that, as it wasn't possible to follow the series due to the lack of coverage, but from what I know, the cars of the NA era were simpler, which means a closer and more competitive racing. I've seen a lot of criticism of the Turbo era as the regulations gave Citroen an unfair advantage over the others.

There's an outfit in the USA preparing a Mini TCR car (LAP Motorsport), I wonder if the adoption of the regs by the WTCC/WTCR will gain more factory interest from BMW to support this project.

That's some nice information, but aren't the Mini's dimensions smaller than the minimum required to be classified in TCR? Unless the team got a waiver or there are some other regulations, I believe that the minimum length of the car should be 4.20 meters, with a maximum width of 1.95 meters.

EDIT: I've just read @KiwiRob post and your reply about the Clubman

Speaking of USA, I'm not sure if we'll see a local / national TCR series over there anytime soon, since the majority of the participating cars are hatchbacks that aren't sold in the North American market.

As for the factory interest, I don't know what to say about it. I want to see more entries in the series, especially from brands we support as fans, but direct involvement from manufacturers doesn't always end well. If it ever happens and WTCR will have works teams, I hope that the organizers of TCR work hard to maintain the core principles of the series in order not to get things out of control, but nothing is guaranteed...

 

[Matski]

As for the factory interest, I don't know what to say about it. I want to see more entries in the series, especially from brands we support as fans, but direct involvement from manufacturers doesn't always end well. If it ever happens and WTCR will have works teams, I hope that the organizers of TCR work hard to maintain the core principles of the series in order not to get things out of control, but nothing is guaranteed...

To me, it's a no brainer to have a TCR car, even if they don't enter the WTCR officially. According to BMW they've sold 170 of the M235i Racing, at about €60,000 a piece... and that's a car that doesn't even have its own 'dedicated' series to compete in like TCR does. If they keep it affordable, they'll sell... we just need to wait for the next 1 series to land.

 

[M.N.D]

To me, it's a no brainer to have a TCR car, even if they don't enter the WTCR officially. According to BMW they've sold 170 of the M235i Racing, at about €60,000 a piece... and that's a car that doesn't even have its own 'dedicated' series to compete in like TCR does. If they keep it affordable, they'll sell... we just need to wait for the next 1 series to land.

I'm actually e****ed for the next BMW 1 series, because I want to see the brand in touring car racing, and for such a series that is expanding rapidly thanks to its manageable costs, it's going to be a good "business case" for BMW to offer one (Unless Mr. Kruger decides otherwise!! WHERE IS YOUR GIF WHEN WE NEED IT )

* I'll get flamed if I say I'm excited for a FWD BMW! but it'll pass since not many folks will notice!

 

[KiwiRob]

To me, it's a no brainer to have a TCR car, even if they don't enter the WTCR officially. According to BMW they've sold 170 of the M235i Racing, at about €60,000 a piece... and that's a car that doesn't even have its own 'dedicated' series to compete in like TCR does. If they keep it affordable, they'll sell... we just need to wait for the next 1 series to land.

I read somewhere that the VAG factory in Spain building the groups TCR cars has delivered over 100 to date.

The Chinese market 1 series sedan would be my pick for the BMW group entrant into the series

 

[Matski]

Well it seems the final push for DTM to adopt Class One regs is well underway, and has been for sometime, according to Audi.

Ex-Audi boss: Mercedes DTM exit clears obstacle in Super GT tie-up

If Audi and MercedesBMW have Turbo 4's on the Dyno I can only imagine they're seeing it fully through. Obviously the final phase is to get teams up and running in both series', but I can't imagine they'd be transitioning this quickly if they weren't planning to do so.

Also, it does seem Mercedes were stifling the future of the DTM, good riddance!

 

[M.N.D]

Well it seems the final push for DTM to adopt Class One regs is well underway, and has been for sometime, according to Audi.

Ex-Audi boss: Mercedes DTM exit clears obstacle in Super GT tie-up

If Audi and MercedesBMW have Turbo 4's on the Dyno I can only imagine they're seeing it fully through. Obviously the final phase is to get teams up and running in both series', but I can't imagine they'd be transitioning this quickly if they weren't planning to do so.

Also, it does seem Mercedes were stifling the future of the DTM, good riddance!

Thank you for sharing

On a more serious note, this is quite reassuring if true, and Dr. Ulrich seems to be confident enough that DTM can go the 2.0 turbo four route in 2019.

Maybe this transition and the regulations unification will push the series to get more attention. I believe it has the potential to become an excellent showcase, provided that they keep everything under control.

Oh, by the way, decrease the downforce a bit while you're at it

 

[Matski]

Thank you for sharing

On a more serious note, this is quite reassuring if true, and Dr. Ulrich seems to be confident enough that DTM can go the 2.0 turbo four route in 2019.

Maybe this transition and the regulations unification will push the series to get more attention. I believe it has the potential to become an excellent showcase, provided that they keep everything under control.

Oh, by the way, decrease the downforce a bit while you're at it

There is one fundamental conflict here that no one seems to address though. Super GT, for all intents and purposes is a GT racing series, DTM still brands itself as a touring car series. Now, don't get me wrong, I can accept it for what it is... but clearly sharing regulations with Super GT puts it another step closer to just being a prototype GT series, rather than a tin-top series, the likes of which fans remember from the past. DTM is dead, long live German Super GT?

 

[KiwiRob]

Well it seems the final push for DTM to adopt Class One regs is well underway, and has been for sometime, according to Audi.

Ex-Audi boss: Mercedes DTM exit clears obstacle in Super GT tie-up

If Audi and MercedesBMW have Turbo 4's on the Dyno I can only imagine they're seeing it fully through. Obviously the final phase is to get teams up and running in both series', but I can't imagine they'd be transitioning this quickly if they weren't planning to do so.

Also, it does seem Mercedes were stifling the future of the DTM, good riddance!

DTM is dead if they can't get some more brands into it, adopting Class One regs is great but unless the Japanese come to play it's not going to mean much.

 

[Matski]

DTM is dead if they can't get some more brands into it, adopting Class One regs is great but unless the Japanese come to play it's not going to mean much.

It does mean that developing a Class One race car is a more attractive option to any new manufacturer, but you're right, if nobody takes up the benefit then it's not going to change anything.

I predict that 2019 won't see any migration and DTM will be a two manufacturer series for that year - the performance difference will be too much of an unknown, and probably too large. I think it'll be 2020 before we see any manufacturer cross over between DTM and GT500.