Mr. Mercedes
Premium
Make time Monster! You'll be seriously impressed by the C. It's agile, yet supremely comfortable. And no matter what the reviews say, the interior really is a very nice place to spend time in.
Drive: Audi A4 v BMW 320i v Lexus IS250 v Mercedes C200k
- Thread starter Monster
- Start date
Make time Monster! You'll be seriously impressed by the C. It's agile, yet supremely comfortable. And no matter what the reviews say, the interior really is a very nice place to spend time in.
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All these cars have quite a few trade-offs, the C-Class seems to be the best balanced of the bunch. C-Class all the way!
Mr Robert
Kraftwagen König
Hrmm.. I missed that. I guess it leaves the Audi for those who like Audi for being Audi. Naa... it is still a great allrounder, it's just not the master of anything and in some cases, like this, it means that it does not show any obvious faults either. It even looks like this positioning.
Another thing that I realised just yesterday, is that the diesels sound really wierd. I heard the 3.0 TDi and my mothers Polo TDi Eco has a better sound to it when idling.
I haven't seen or heard any diesel A4 yet, but I have heard a C220 CDI on my street and I can hear it idling from 10 m away.
got a question for Fortuner, how loud is the idling of your C220CDI when you are inside and outside the car, because it certainly sound pretty loud from the outside.
got a question for Fortuner, how loud is the idling of your C220CDI when you are inside and outside the car, because it certainly sound pretty loud from the outside.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
LoL GTA what's wrong with my post?
cawimmer430
Piston Pioneer
I ain't Fortuner but the C220 CDI is very common here. On the outside you do hear it. It's an older engine and it is loud when cold but becomes "quieter" when warmed up and also properly driven in. I've driven the C220 CDI and depending on trim, you can't hear much of it when you're driving. While idling in traffic though, you can hear it but it isn't a very loud noise, but you can still hear a light diesel clatter.
Hope this helps.
Benzboi_inoz
Parking Lot Prodigy
Good writeup. I love the way the Aussies tell it how it is with no brand bowing and scraping or badge worshipping bullshit, ergo 'daring' to criticise the rough riding BMW 3 with the runflats for eg which many overseas magazines seem to be afraid to do. Maybe lose some advertising dollars perhaps if they risk upsetting BMW or just a very Euro-centric POV perhaps.
I've driven all of these vehicles locally, bar the new A4 and would agree with the writeup generally.
The Lexus is a very fine vehicle, despite what the Jap haters/mockers here may think; certainly my love affair/respect for Mercedes took a very hard knock with all the well documented past problems with reliability and quality that Mercedes had - a W203 C Class is no where near as well made and nice to drive as the baby Lexus IME.
Having said that, whether it is the much needed divorce from Chrysler, or quality controls implemented earlier and now coming to fruit, Mercedes seems to be back when it comes to quality and reliability - I see on JD Power that the main German manufacturing plant for the S Class won a gong for best automotive quality manufacturing facility in the world.
I agree that the Audi has an interior that conveys a more appropriate sense of something special compared to the others - however that is also quite a personal thing, and for me the actual styling of the Audi interior does not grab me with a 'I want this' feeling. Also front wheel drive puts me off any car as regards driving dynamics overall.
For driving feel, with a superb chassis balance beautifully set up for spirited driving, it would be very hard to pass up the BMW. However, when not tooling around some back roads, trying to avoid police radar, or errant motorists whilst enjoying all that the 'ultimate drivers car' has to offer, one has to settle down and cruise on indifferent roads for long distances, or sit in traffic jams between 80kph sprints between the lights. Here the ride of the BMW in particular, and it's general refinement is especially wanting in the sport/luxury equation being rather more sport than luxury. Which is perhaps how it should be as regards a marketing point of difference but one that will suit some types of drivers/road conditions, and not others.
The Lexus is a beautifully made and appointed car, albeit I personally prefer the German trio when it comes to exterior and interior styling. However, with the exception of low speed ride quality, which I found rather 'jiggly' for lack of a better description, it is a highly refined, superbly made and equipped vehicle and on those grounds, if those were the overriding criteria, probably the pick of the bunch. Certainly four cylinder Audis, Mercs, and Bimmers power-trains don't compare as regards engine smoothness, refinement and interior silence. But despite the almost peerless quality, build, features etc, I came away from a test drive as I have also with many BMW's - hugely impressive car, but not a real sense of emotional connection such that I would feel compelled to buy one.
My personal choice, would be the W204 C Class.
It doesn't match the Lexus for the impression of the sheer precision of build with the Lexus's peerless shutlines and panel gaps etc, but to my eyes, it is a lovely looking car, much nice to me than the Lexus, and the interior, whilst arguablly a little bland compared to the others, especially the Audi, has a very high quality understated feel that I really like. Most importantly, I find things like ergonomics, visual sight lines and the sense of interior visual space and overall balance of the design the most appealing.
Given that I spend a lot of time in the interior of a car, stuck in traffic jams; this is an important point. Given that I also spend time in the car driving it, and not just admiring it in showrooms, things like ergonomic design, visual sight-lines etc, really start to matter as well from both an ease of driving, lowering of driving stress, and safety point of view.
For this class of car, given it's weight and wheelbase, the ride is just superb. The ride handling balance is especially well choosen, and whilst not quite as nimble and quick reflexed feeling as the BMW, it has for me on my local roads, the better balance between sport and luxury.
True, I do find the supercharged four a little gruff sounding; not as 'sweet' and free-revving as the BMW four, and with nothing like the refinement of the Lexus V6; however, these are just individual points looked at in isolation in the assessment of a vehicle, and for a balance of overall qualities, for me the C Class wins the prize.
Regards
Jon...
I've driven all of these vehicles locally, bar the new A4 and would agree with the writeup generally.
The Lexus is a very fine vehicle, despite what the Jap haters/mockers here may think; certainly my love affair/respect for Mercedes took a very hard knock with all the well documented past problems with reliability and quality that Mercedes had - a W203 C Class is no where near as well made and nice to drive as the baby Lexus IME.
Having said that, whether it is the much needed divorce from Chrysler, or quality controls implemented earlier and now coming to fruit, Mercedes seems to be back when it comes to quality and reliability - I see on JD Power that the main German manufacturing plant for the S Class won a gong for best automotive quality manufacturing facility in the world.
I agree that the Audi has an interior that conveys a more appropriate sense of something special compared to the others - however that is also quite a personal thing, and for me the actual styling of the Audi interior does not grab me with a 'I want this' feeling. Also front wheel drive puts me off any car as regards driving dynamics overall.
For driving feel, with a superb chassis balance beautifully set up for spirited driving, it would be very hard to pass up the BMW. However, when not tooling around some back roads, trying to avoid police radar, or errant motorists whilst enjoying all that the 'ultimate drivers car' has to offer, one has to settle down and cruise on indifferent roads for long distances, or sit in traffic jams between 80kph sprints between the lights. Here the ride of the BMW in particular, and it's general refinement is especially wanting in the sport/luxury equation being rather more sport than luxury. Which is perhaps how it should be as regards a marketing point of difference but one that will suit some types of drivers/road conditions, and not others.
The Lexus is a beautifully made and appointed car, albeit I personally prefer the German trio when it comes to exterior and interior styling. However, with the exception of low speed ride quality, which I found rather 'jiggly' for lack of a better description, it is a highly refined, superbly made and equipped vehicle and on those grounds, if those were the overriding criteria, probably the pick of the bunch. Certainly four cylinder Audis, Mercs, and Bimmers power-trains don't compare as regards engine smoothness, refinement and interior silence. But despite the almost peerless quality, build, features etc, I came away from a test drive as I have also with many BMW's - hugely impressive car, but not a real sense of emotional connection such that I would feel compelled to buy one.
My personal choice, would be the W204 C Class.
It doesn't match the Lexus for the impression of the sheer precision of build with the Lexus's peerless shutlines and panel gaps etc, but to my eyes, it is a lovely looking car, much nice to me than the Lexus, and the interior, whilst arguablly a little bland compared to the others, especially the Audi, has a very high quality understated feel that I really like. Most importantly, I find things like ergonomics, visual sight lines and the sense of interior visual space and overall balance of the design the most appealing.
Given that I spend a lot of time in the interior of a car, stuck in traffic jams; this is an important point. Given that I also spend time in the car driving it, and not just admiring it in showrooms, things like ergonomic design, visual sight-lines etc, really start to matter as well from both an ease of driving, lowering of driving stress, and safety point of view.
For this class of car, given it's weight and wheelbase, the ride is just superb. The ride handling balance is especially well choosen, and whilst not quite as nimble and quick reflexed feeling as the BMW, it has for me on my local roads, the better balance between sport and luxury.
True, I do find the supercharged four a little gruff sounding; not as 'sweet' and free-revving as the BMW four, and with nothing like the refinement of the Lexus V6; however, these are just individual points looked at in isolation in the assessment of a vehicle, and for a balance of overall qualities, for me the C Class wins the prize.
Regards
Jon...
cawimmer430
Piston Pioneer
Good post, John.
Just one thing...
I think the Lexus IS interior is mega overrated. I've spent time in the IS, an IS250 and IS220d at a local Lexus show, twice. I've also sat in the car at the local dealership going over the interior like a dashstroaker. Good interior, but far below the visual build quality standards of the Lexus GS for example, which IMO has the best Lexus interior up to date. Don't find the LS interior that good to be honest.
My favorite argument regarding the IS vs C-Class interior is this part...
IS
C-Class
The Lexus styling in this area looks more like an afterthought or no thought at all and dare I say cheap. The C-Class door area looks simple, yet also elegant and with a touch of sportiness to it as well. Simple things like that can make big difference in how a person feels about the car. I generally think the W204 C-Class interior is superbly crafted and well-made, but from a visual point of view it simply looks a little bland compared to its competitors. I've spent enough time in both the C-Class and IS to be able to say that both interiors are made to a very high standard and it is difficult to ascertain which one is better than the other.
So while the center console and main cockpit area of the Lexus might be visually more colorful and not as spartan looking as that of the C-Class, other aspects of the car are downright disappointing / bland.
Just one thing...
I think the Lexus IS interior is mega overrated. I've spent time in the IS, an IS250 and IS220d at a local Lexus show, twice. I've also sat in the car at the local dealership going over the interior like a dashstroaker. Good interior, but far below the visual build quality standards of the Lexus GS for example, which IMO has the best Lexus interior up to date. Don't find the LS interior that good to be honest.
My favorite argument regarding the IS vs C-Class interior is this part...
IS
C-Class
The Lexus styling in this area looks more like an afterthought or no thought at all and dare I say cheap. The C-Class door area looks simple, yet also elegant and with a touch of sportiness to it as well. Simple things like that can make big difference in how a person feels about the car. I generally think the W204 C-Class interior is superbly crafted and well-made, but from a visual point of view it simply looks a little bland compared to its competitors. I've spent enough time in both the C-Class and IS to be able to say that both interiors are made to a very high standard and it is difficult to ascertain which one is better than the other.
So while the center console and main cockpit area of the Lexus might be visually more colorful and not as spartan looking as that of the C-Class, other aspects of the car are downright disappointing / bland.
fortuner
Autotechnik Ace
hey monster
yes the c220cdi motor is noisy or has that clatter when you standing outside but its not that noisy i find it quiter then the older e270cdi i have and from the inside its not noisy yes when you on stan still you do hear it but its not really noticible unless you trying to notice it when you on the inside
i have a avantgarde version of the 220cdi i dont have any complains when you in the car but when you are outside if its iddling their is no hiding that you can hear it but its not as loud as the older dieslis and once its warm you hardly hear it....
Benzboi_inoz
Parking Lot Prodigy
Er, no..just an amateur... but thank you so much for the kind remarks - it gives me a bit of confidence as I also write a lot about HiFi and Home Theatre on a few forums, and a couple of friends have been prompting me to submit some articles for publication; I tend to be rather self effacing and overly critical of my own writing and often don't think it's any good... so thank you... it's much appreciated.
Christian said:
I would agree Christian.
In comparing the W203, either facelift or pre-facelift, the IS250 has the edge IMHO as regards interior design and impression of quality. But then, it is a later design, and most industry commentators would agree that the W203 was not one of Benzes better models as regards quality coming right in the period when Benz was bleeding money to Chrysler and quality standards were falling badly.
However, with the new W204, I prefer it overall to the IS250 both as a car and on the interior and exterior design details. As you say, they are both broadly comparable, with strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I do not like the metalicised plastic centre console in the Lexus IS250, and in particular the way it is fitted into the dashboard with a hard cut edge on the dashboard where the console fits in; no chamfering or softening of the join which makes the console look cheaply 'pressed' in to the dashboard, rather than elegantly 'fitted'. And the mix of muted silvery plastic and woodgrain is again not quite to my taste, re the juxtaposition of the different contrasting finishes - olde worlde with modern.
Again it is a personal thing, but I also find the abruptly rising dashboard with a high scuttle creates on one hand a sense of cocooning intimacy with the car, but also a feeling of being slightly cramped and almost claustrophobic at the same time.
With the W204 interior, it is perhaps the large area of dashboard plastic over the passenger glovebox up to the windscreen area that most makes it seem a bit bland in some respects; and certainly it does not have the colourful interior of the Lexus, or the sublime elegance of the Audi.
However I would rather this as a design aspect that puts function before form, as it allows a low scuttle, with the dash flowing away from one, up towards the windscreen, giving superb visual sight lines and indeed the overall ergonomics are a master class in excellence to the other manufacturers being discussed here.
I love things of beauty, in my cars, home appliances, clothes, interior design, you name it. But in a car, quality, engineering, technology that is useful and not a hindrance to the driver, and ergonomics that help lower stress, and build a relationship with the driver such that one is at one with the car and finds much joy of ownership as well as safety and satisfaction in driving, is paramount. Here, IMV, Mercedes still stands out for the sheer obsessive thoroughness of their designs - the caption "Engineered like no other" was perhaps never better deserved.
Best Regards
John...
coolraoul
Torque Titan
Great posts, John and Wimmer. Another thing I always find shockingly disappointing in the Lexus are the switches. They are cheap, grey, neither round nor edgy. Just Toyota-ish and cheap. This is for me revealing of Lexus's philosophy: they are not trying, like MB, to question every single element of the car. The're focusing on what you can see and touch, and on the reliability.
However, the ergonomics are notoriously bad in Lexuse's, the buttons look cheap, the design of the interior means only the dash for them, as the rest doesn't look very good, and they have no "own" inventivity.
Their gadgets and innovations are all related to what MB does/want to do, never do they come with something typically Lexus. Maybe only the auto-parking...
They don't see a car as a whole, but as the sum of its element. It's for me why they can't have the charm, the appeal of the Germans. Lexuse's are carefully engineered elements. MB's and Beemer especially are just more than that. Maybe some of these elements are/were not as good as in a Lexus, but the car is a whole that is more than the sum of the elements composing it.
This is Italian's and Briton's specialty, they can build something truly insane out of sometimes crappy elements... Germans build something superb out of superb elements. The Japanese use outstanding elements but usually can't really make them work as a convincing whole.
However, the ergonomics are notoriously bad in Lexuse's, the buttons look cheap, the design of the interior means only the dash for them, as the rest doesn't look very good, and they have no "own" inventivity.
Their gadgets and innovations are all related to what MB does/want to do, never do they come with something typically Lexus. Maybe only the auto-parking...
They don't see a car as a whole, but as the sum of its element. It's for me why they can't have the charm, the appeal of the Germans. Lexuse's are carefully engineered elements. MB's and Beemer especially are just more than that. Maybe some of these elements are/were not as good as in a Lexus, but the car is a whole that is more than the sum of the elements composing it.
This is Italian's and Briton's specialty, they can build something truly insane out of sometimes crappy elements... Germans build something superb out of superb elements. The Japanese use outstanding elements but usually can't really make them work as a convincing whole.
cawimmer430
Piston Pioneer
I would agree Christian.
In comparing the W203, either facelift or pre-facelift, the IS250 has the edge IMHO as regards interior design and impression of quality. But then, it is a later design, and most industry commentators would agree that the W203 was not one of Benzes better models as regards quality coming right in the period when Benz was bleeding money to Chrysler and quality standards were falling badly.
However, with the new W204, I prefer it overall to the IS250 both as a car and on the interior and exterior design details. As you say, they are both broadly comparable, with strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I do not like the metalicised plastic centre console in the Lexus IS250, and in particular the way it is fitted into the dashboard with a hard cut edge on the dashboard where the console fits in; no chamfering or softening of the join which makes the console look cheaply 'pressed' in to the dashboard, rather than elegantly 'fitted'. And the mix of muted silvery plastic and woodgrain is again not quite to my taste, re the juxtaposition of the different contrasting finishes - olde worlde with modern.
Again it is a personal thing, but I also find the abruptly rising dashboard with a high scuttle creates on one hand a sense of cocooning intimacy with the car, but also a feeling of being slightly cramped and almost claustrophobic at the same time.
With the W204 interior, it is perhaps the large area of dashboard plastic over the passenger glovebox up to the windscreen area that most makes it seem a bit bland in some respects; and certainly it does not have the colourful interior of the Lexus, or the sublime elegance of the Audi.
However I would rather this as a design aspect that puts function before form, as it allows a low scuttle, with the dash flowing away from one, up towards the windscreen, giving superb visual sight lines and indeed the overall ergonomics are a master class in excellence to the other manufacturers being discussed here.
I love things of beauty, in my cars, home appliances, clothes, interior design, you name it. But in a car, quality, engineering, technology that is useful and not a hindrance to the driver, and ergonomics that help lower stress, and build a relationship with the driver such that one is at one with the car and finds much joy of ownership as well as safety and satisfaction in driving, is paramount. Here, IMV, Mercedes still stands out for the sheer obsessive thoroughness of their designs - the caption "Engineered like no other" was perhaps never better deserved.
Best Regards
John...
Again, great post.
The W203 doesn't compare to the Lexus and the W204 C-Class. That interior was horrible to start with and when the facelift came it got better but was still not even close to the build quality of its competitors, especially from a visual perspective.
It will be interesting to see how Mercedes will address the interior when it is time for the C-Class facelift. Will they make a move? We'll see...
cawimmer430
Piston Pioneer
I agree with you. So many people blindly think Lexus is "all that" because of misleading marketing and the visual impression they get from quick glances inside the interior. Sure, the LS interior for example looks superb at first glance, but when you see the interior of an Audi A8 or Mercedes S-Class and then sit inside the Lexus LS, you'd be surprised at how cheap the LS interior appears. Plus the design simply lacks elegance. Everything has been thrown in and grouped together with little thought about comfortable ergonomics. Most European reviews complain about the many buttons in the LS interior which are confusing.
Again, I agree. Plus Lexus does an extremely poor job at making their cars "practical". What do I mean? Well, the Lexus GS for example supposedly has the most interior volume space in its class. Lexus is shoving this fact down in our throats. And yet, the GS is so cramped and tight on the inside I really don't feel this "airy and voluminous" interior they are bragging about. Our 2002 Mercedes E320 is more spacious on the inside. Lexus does such a poor job with this area in cars like the IS, GS and RX. Plus, their trunk spaces are also nothing to write home about and the payload capacity of most Lexi is downright embarrassing.
The Europeans place value on making a "balanced car" and I think Audi and BMW and especially Mercedes do a superb job here. I can't stand how so many people overlook simple things like this that actually matter when talking about how Lexus is God and all that BS. Lexus is a marketing company, not a car company.
Sorry for the rant and no offense to the Lexus fans here. Good cars but they have some major weaknesses too which people never want to talk about.
I second the comments made above about the cheap switchgear etc. found in the Lexus. A friend recently started a new job and I went with him to choose a new company car. Suitable Audi and BMW models weren't within budget and he doesn't like Mercedes so I suggested he take a look at Lexus. The dealership was superb and lent him an IS220d for an entire weekend so he could really get a feel for the car.
I was very impressed with things like the quality of the alcantara roof lining and the leather upholstery, both of which were on a par with the German equivalents, but this impression soon fades when you are faced with fake aluminium door pulls and lock buttons from a 1995 Corolla. The dials for the heated seats looked like something off of the Hornby model railway controller I had as a kid, and the touch-screen sat nav would also have ticked all the boxes for us were it not for the fact that it was surrounded by shiny silver plastic and complemented by what appeared to be a digital clock reminiscent of a 1970s Casio pocket calculator.
I was very impressed with things like the quality of the alcantara roof lining and the leather upholstery, both of which were on a par with the German equivalents, but this impression soon fades when you are faced with fake aluminium door pulls and lock buttons from a 1995 Corolla. The dials for the heated seats looked like something off of the Hornby model railway controller I had as a kid, and the touch-screen sat nav would also have ticked all the boxes for us were it not for the fact that it was surrounded by shiny silver plastic and complemented by what appeared to be a digital clock reminiscent of a 1970s Casio pocket calculator.
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