Clash of the titans. Whos ready???


^now you missunderstood me..
the question was about handling and sportyness..
now i know that FWD isnt bad for normall cars.. maybe its even better..
but im talking about fun factor.. cause i havent driven a FWD car thats as fun as RWD cars.. heck even the all mighty quattro RS4 wasent as thrilling as the 335i..

so i rather be pushed than pulled im afraid

Have you driven the clio 182 cup? You should really do that and see what real fun is about. I think they have gift sets that you can buy where you spend a day racing those sport clios and get taught advanced driving also. Could be a good treat for yourself, and you will also see that FWD can be really really fun. :usa7uh:
 
lol i would love that.. now your giving me 1 example.. and im sure there are more..
but both you and i know.. the benchmark for sportscars and fun driving is rear wheel drive.. and aint nothing gonna change that..
if it where anything diffrent, then many of the top sports car makers would go FWD as it is even lighter as someone said here
 
lol i would love that.. now your giving me 1 example.. and im sure there are more..
but both you and i know.. the benchmark for sportscars and fun driving is rear wheel drive.. and aint nothing gonna change that..
if it where anything diffrent, then many of the top sports car makers would go FWD as it is even lighter as someone said here
You are 100% right Artist, RWD cars are probably more "fun" than FWD cars. But like I said earlier, The majority of people who buy cars from Audi, BMW, and MB are average working men/women who want a car to get from point A to point B in the city, not a car that they are going to have fun driving around a track. If they want that fun car to drive they can buy S/RS, M, or AMG car thats why they make those cars.
 
You are 100% right Artist, RWD cars are probably more "fun" than FWD cars. But like I said earlier, The majority of people who buy cars from Audi, BMW, and MB are average working men/women who want a car to get from point A to point B in the city, not a car that they are going to have fun driving around a track. If they want that fun car to drive they can buy S/RS, M, or AMG car thats why they make those cars.

But for some of these A-to-B drivers a "capability factor" is very important. No matter if this capability is ever used or not. It's presence is important. They pay for that. It's a matter of prestige. That's why they buy a premium product/brand, and not Renault, Fiat, Toyota, Ford etc. And for some eg 318i is enough, yet for some only M3 will satisfy the need.

Capability factor = what your car is capable of; what your car's limits are.

And some people just buy BMW despite they never really experience a thrill of RWD, or some buy an Audi Quattro despite never really need an AWD (especially since ESP / DSC makes wonders nowadays), etc.
 
But for some of these A-to-B drivers a "capability factor" is very important. No matter if this capability is ever used or not. It's presence is important. They pay for that. It's a matter of prestige. That's why they buy a premium product/brand, and not Renault, Fiat, Toyota, Ford etc. And for some eg 318i is enough, yet for some only M3 will satisfy the need.

Capability factor = what your car is capable of; what your car's limits are.

And some people just buy BMW despite they never really experience a thrill of RWD, or some buy an Audi Quattro despite never really need an AWD (especially since ESP / DSC makes wonders nowadays), etc.

I agree with you Eni, but many times this is just as much an ego thing as it is capability factor. My original point was how we always love to emphasize the track performances on the forums but I still feel that the majority of people ( in the US at least, I can't speak for Europe) could care less what their car handles like on a track or what numbers some magazine gets. Sure they want the luxury and prestige of the German Marque but when buying, very few will consider how the car performs on the track.
 
Wait a sec. Why is everyone backing up FWD saying that its great for everyday use when this thread was started with the question "Can the undisputed benchmark for performance and handling BMW be taken down by the four rings?". That question said nothing about everyday people and everyday mommy and daddy cars. That question clearly talked about performance. So why not just stop defending AUDI on the notion that "but FWD is great for everyday". We all know that for day to day driving FWD is fine. This thread asked that can AUDI take the Performance and Handling crown away from BMW. Not with FWD offerings they can't. Simple.
 
^ thank you thats what ive been trying to say all the time

PS
but like eni says.. allthough i dont take my car to the track..i dont know why rearwheel cars feels more right for me.. maybe its cause ive always had RWD cars..
 
In my opinion a RWD car will always have more potential to be a driver's car than a FWD vehicle. It always has to do with balance, and a RWD can attain a 50/50 weight distribution with less compromise than a FWD car.

I believe Audi's MPL will be very promising. It will be a major improvement over the current offerings and it will challenge the RWD BMWs and Mercs in ride comfort if not handling. But at the end of the day it will still remain a FWD, which has far less potential than RWD to be dynamically superior.

I'm not an engineer, but if i were Audi, i would not only focus on building a platform which pushes the characteristics of FWD closer to RWD. I would focus on reducing WEIGHT. I believe that Audi has the advantage over BMW and MB is mass producing aluminium construction. And it has to use this expertise as a weapon to compete with BMWs dynamics prowess.
 
This year will mark the intro of Audi's first real competitors to BMW poroducts: the B8 A5 & A4. What do you expect??? Can the undisputed benchmark for performance and handling BMW be taken down by the four rings??? Or is it all just a pipe dream for Audi??? Watch this space....

I don't think Audi's worried about taking down BMW or anyone else for that matter, I believe Audi's current goal is to shake the notion of poor reliablity which damaged their brand image in the 90's! I personally believe Audi has maded trumendence strides over the last few years to repair it's brand name. Being "In The Know" I would take the S8 over any luxury sports car out, and I'm leaning towards trading my S55AMG in for one this summer! My other choices are S550 AMG or a Quattroporte GT. However my business partner who still believes Audi's are unreliable
represents a large number of the buyers market, who aren't aware of the strides Audi has made.:)

I realize I got a little off topic so know I don't think Audi can take down BMW, nor can BMW slow Audi's growth!
They will co-exsist as they should!:usa7uh:
 
I'm not an engineer, but if i were Audi, i would not only focus on building a platform which pushes the characteristics of FWD closer to RWD. I would focus on reducing WEIGHT. I believe that Audi has the advantage over BMW and MB is mass producing aluminium construction. And it has to use this expertise as a weapon to compete with BMWs dynamics prowess.

Weight is indeed an issue with Audis with Quattro. Even with their ASF they can only 'pay' for the weight deficit caused by the naturally more porky AWD mechanicals.
 
FWD can be just as fun and as good as RWD, the Mini proves this to be true. Yeh, so what, BMW engineered the Mini, which no doubt is a leading factor as to why the car handles so well despite being FWD, goes to show at the same time that anything is possible.
I don't believe for one second that AWD will hamper Audi from achieving a neutral handling disposition like that of BMW, because they're also pioneering lightweight technologies (ASF, etc.) to offset the weight penlaty of the Quattro system. Though I am a BMW nut at the core, nothing is ever set in stone, especially w/ the new models coming out from both Audi and BMW.
 
FWD can be just as fun and as good as RWD, the Mini proves this to be true.

A very good point. I almost forgot about that.

I think the reason the MINI performs so well dynamically even though it's FWD is because of it's size, weight and proportions. It's relatively small and lightweight, and it's well proportioned- the wheels are push as far as possible to the corners thereby giving the car the longest wheelbase possible. I know that the 2001-2006 model used BMWs Z-axle at the rear, so we know it has a very good suspension system.

This vehicle configuration serves as a very good example for car-makers who strive to emulate BMWs dynamic prowess byt must utilise a FWD format to do so.
 
Nice thread, nice debate. Keep it going because there are some very valid points being made on both sides of the fence.

Me? You all know that I'm the great fence sitter: you makes your choice and you takes your pick. And then, live with it.

In high-end performance cars, RWD is the de facto standard for maximum driver involvement and adjustability. A front wheel drive M3 would be absolute rubbish and that's why there isn't one.

But, at the same time, a RWD Mini or Clio Sport would be daft and pointless and certainly less fun to drive. It's all about technique. Technique for having fun in FWD/AWD car is decidedly different from the technique required for the same in a RWD car. If you're a good driver you can have fun in both - using the throttle to balance the car's cornering stance. In a RWD car you'll put your foot down on the accelerator to get the back out, in an F/AWD car you'll lift off mid-corner for oversteer and then mash the gas to pull you out of the slide - something, it must be said, you can't do in a RWD car - which is equally fun.

The key thing here is the relationship between the amount of engine power vs. the amount of traction. An A4 2.0T is dynamically a more fun car to drive than a 320i because it has more power and the driver is able to exploit that power to his/her own enjoyment. Because the car has more power - it's more adjustable on the limit.

There's so much more to a good chassis than merely where the drive wheels are located and whilst I've acknowledged RWD as the best solution for performance motoring it's not to say that RWD is mandatory for good fun. Nope. But driver skill is.

There are many fabulous front-drivers out there and plenty of truly awful ones too. Then again, I know of a couple of RWD cars that are as dull as dishwater too...

Eventually, it all comes to nought. Us petrolheads can sit here all year round and extol the virtues of whichever layout, only to realise that to 90% of our family, friends and colleagues: it doesn't matter. Most of them could care less. For the rest that do pretend that it matters do so based on what they've been told and not what they understand.

Sorry gang, but us folks here in GCF-land are in a minority - most of the car-buying public don't care (most of them don't even know) about front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive.

What the general public does understand (and desire) is a car that accelerates powerfully in a straight line and corners securely around bends. The notions of understeer and oversteer never even come to mind.

And that's why a car like the Audi B7 has made such astonishing inroads into BMW 3er territory (the B8 should do even more so), because for the majority of prestige car buyers out there, the driven wheels are only a tiny consideration in the overall purchasing decision.

Hey, you know what else is rather interesting: the vast majority of car buyers will have grown up and learnt to drive on front wheel drive cars. Look at me, I've never owned a RWD car - and I've owned ten cars already! How many normal motorists out there will, when encountered with the situation, disengage the stability program and put foot down, knowing exactly what to do with the car once the combination of accelerative and lateral forces exceed the frictional co-efficient of the tyres (most of them right now are going "what the frak did you just say, Martin?") pitching the car into controlled oversteer? It's a statistic I'd love to know.

If they did then more than likely they're a member of a car forum somewhere out there on the internet.
 
Thats true. A majority of buyers don 't even know if they're car is FWD and RWD and they don't even care.

It's only people like us who are enthusiasts that notice and actually use this information in our buying decisions.

As a passionate car enthusist, its so easy to get swept up over the details and completely forget what the average consumer is thinking.
 
Thats true. A majority of buyers don 't even know if they're car is FWD and RWD and they don't even care.

It's only people like us who are enthusiasts that notice and actually use this information in our buying decisions.

As a passionate car enthusist, its so easy to get swept up over the details and completely forget what the average consumer is thinking.
Very nicely put - you said in three lines what I tried to put across in an essay! :D
 

Audi

Audi AG is a German automotive manufacturer of luxury vehicles headquartered in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, Germany. A subsidiary of the Volkswagen Group, the company’s origins date back to the early 20th century and the initial enterprises (Horch and the Audiwerke) founded by engineer August Horch (1868–1951). Two other manufacturers (DKW and Wanderer) also contributed to the foundation of Auto Union in 1932. The modern Audi era began in the 1960s, when Volkswagen acquired Auto Union from Daimler-Benz, and merged it with NSU Motorenwerke in 1969.
Official website: Audi (Global), Audi (USA)

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