BMW Design. The Insight.

[klier]

There is no such thing as "Marketing talk of a designer".

Oh come on now....

And of course everyone can make a Hyundai look like a BMW, but that wasn't my point. Hyundai got a person who worked at BMW and was very good at making car designs. It's ridiculous to think I said anything else.

My point is that a design of a car is the least important, because it's the easiest to copy. You might not agree as a designer, but what can I do about that?

The problem with BMW is that they have a bery predictable and boring design language right now, and they are still talking as if they are in the radical Bangle era....

 

[7saen]

And of course everyone can make a Hyundai look like a BMW, but that wasn't my point. Hyundai got a person who worked at BMW and was very good at making car designs. It's ridiculous to think I said anything else.

Well, this is what you wrote. I think it's pretty easy to think that you did say something else:

Design is much easier to make/copy [...] period. Just steal a good designer like recently Chris Chapman from BMW to Hyundai (or was it Kia?) . Give him a million more per year and he switches. It's that easy

Anyway, I don't know what you do for a living, but you're definately not a designer. You don't know how design is made so you can't say that it's easy to copy because this is simply not true. This is one of the reasons why I said that design and marketing are not always at harmony. Marketing doesn't show you how design is made, but how they want you to think how it's made. Almost every sketch you see in a press release was made after the car is done and none of them was really made during the process. these "making of" videos are fake. none of them was made during the proocess either. So, with all due respect, please don't pass a judgemnt about something you know so little about.

And BTW, even given that you're right, "design is the least important, because it's the easiest to copy" doesn't make any sence.

 

[Mr Robert]

Well, to someone who thinks most cars look the same, design clearly is not so important.

 

[7saen]

well I'm not trying to convert anyone. If you think that design isn't important that's your respected opinion.
But you can't ignore the fact that the majority of people have design as a top criteria for buying a new car.
Not all costumers are car enthusiasts who are interested in how a car works or what's the difference between one technical feature and the other, so most of them compare by design. And it's common mistake to confuse design for styling. because design is much more than just how a car looks.

 

[Mr Robert]

No, don't get me wrong, I own a lot of Apple gadgets and would never buy an F20

I'm only saying that making design the major brand element, could alienate some.

 

[7saen]

No, don't get me wrong, I own a lot of Apple gadgets and would never buy an F20

So you don't think that all cars look the same

I'm only saying that making design the major brand element, could alienate some

I agree. A car is machine at the end of the day. And the technology is still the most crucial part.
On the other hand, companies like Alfa Romeo live almost only through their design as everyone knows they make terrible cars
But you all are right that BMW was a performance-driven brand and it might not be the best idea to treat it like it was Alfa, but that's an image change that BMW themselves started to got with.

 

[Mr Robert]

I was actually thinking if Alfa Romeo as an example of a very design-driven car company! Maybe it could work. Alfa used to make brilliantly designed, happy cars. Quality product? Innivative? Naaa... Brilliant cars anyway? Yes!

 

[Giannis]

Now that you mentioned Alfa Romeo, guys, this is the best example of an engineering driven company that was transformed into a design driven one.

Do you remember the Alfa 75? Or the original Giullietta? Rear wheel drive, DeDion rear axle and great handling, not to mention the "soul" of their engines. The sound, the redline, the "patents" that were used by the Italian engineers, all made the car unique. A machine with a soul. What more could a man ask, apart from better corrosion protection?

Then FIAT stepped in and got rid of the RWD layout and hired actuall designers to sketch their cars. And we ended up with the 159. What is the 159 apart from a beautiful car? Well, a machine with faulty electronics that won't make a spirited driver happy. Yet, it's still beautiful.

So, the question is. Is BMW going down the same road?

 

[Centurion]

Porsche and Ferrari are the only engineering driven car manufacturers on the market. The reason is because they are the only ones that can successfully walk down that path and develop engineering superiority that consumers feel and are willing to pay a premium for.

BMW do produce great driving machines but in the past 5 years Mercedes and Audi have caught up to the point that cars like the E-Class, A6 and 5-Series are as good as the other. Driving either from the dealership and a few blocks around, most non-petrol head consumers wouldn't be able to tell much different between the driving experience.

The reality is that consumers use emotions a compass when buying products. That is why companies like Monster together with Dr.Dre have accomplished something tall being able to convince the wider public to spend €100-150 on headphones. Prior to Beats, headphones in that price range were niche and only purchased by a few audiophiles. So how did Monster achieve this great success? Using clever marketing and off course Dr.Dre. Likewise BMW are now spending there money where it matters in a growing but somewhat commodity market - Marketing. Audi are a brilliant example. By affiliating themselves with robots they've managed to lure people into buying their cars, many of them even FWD.

 

[jack]

The problem with BMW is that they have a bery predictable and boring design language right now, and they are still talking as if they are in the radical Bangle era....

would a mother ever talk bad about her baby ?
these guys put so much effort into their work, they can explain you every single edge on the surface
for you it may look boring,but there is always a greater reason behind decisions

german car brands have always been and will always be engineering driven - i mean - just look at how much money goes into engineering and how much money goes into design

 

[K-A]

german car brands have always been and will always be engineering driven - i mean - just look at how much money goes into engineering and how much money goes into design

I think that's the point of this Thread, i.e that it's starting to change.

I've heard statements from both M-B and BMW Designers/Marketers/Etc. about how Design will further become "the language of Premium cars VS non Premium cars". I even answered a questionnaire from Mercedes one time about how I felt about interior materials quality no longer telling you that the car you're in is a Luxury car, instead the Design. This all obviously tells us that car manufacturers are finding it harder and less cost effective to go above and beyond in the core functionality of the cars, instead of speaking to you via Design.

I'll be the first to admit that Design is #1 to me, but it has to compliment the actual product. And the problem of this new "outlook" of these Premium cars, is that in order to "speak their supremacy via design", we're starting to see uncharacteristically try-hard, over-designs, i.e Bangle before, and M-B now. We're starting to see maybe too much Design ambition, and a loss of beauty-in-simplicity that is paramount to design and especially a historic staple to German cars. BMW on the other hand right now is very calm with their Designs, after the avant-garde era, so I'm assuming their statements reflect more-so the coming future than right now, as right now they're keeping it very conservative, and relatively classically presented.

 

[jack]

the funny thing that i read in your post(or in a lot of posts of others) that people seem to be afraid of "design"
i know that the general understanding of design hasn't reached the public (probably also because of wrong marketing messages)
design can only serve people, we are the guys that should make technology useful
creative solutions will make the difference in future(especially in the premium segment) - this is were design kicks in, but you will always need a heavy engineering backbone. so the balance will stay the same.

i don't see manufacturers having style wars in future, you will always have different flavors to choose from.

 

[EnI]

It's how design (process) & all the (human & tech) stories behind can be used for extra promotion, and as a talking-point for the customer base. What's the problem? I see none.

Sure the product in it essence matter the most - it's still an automobile. Not a static artwork.

But like brand was inflated into something intangible - convincing people to pay more for the sake of brand only ... now the same is happening with design. Styling is just one part of design, btw. Design as a statement. Design as a cultural phenomenon. Design as selling point. Design ... part of the brand's identity. It's such a postmodern concept ... when used by marketing. But also designer use design as a language (code) ... they are communication via design. And sometimes extra explanation is needed - to know the insights - and here the marketing can help ... via promotional videos etc

IMO it's a good stuff. Not harmful at all. Very benign.

 

[SCOTT27]

When you look at it , BMW were in fact the only manufacturer to communicate design within the media , for BMW design is always personal and you always see a face to much that creativity , BMW have been the pioneer in this media direction because they want the customer etc to feel the emotions and inspiration which helped create their purchase. With BMW you now know who is the designer of each model because it is part of the communication to make the company more personal. In hindsight we should have done this around the design evolution of the 2001 7er which would have made you understand the design a bit better and help to cement the ideas around the overall design language. But I am surprised that when you see a 2001 7er on the streets it still appears current and modern , the same goes for the E63 6er and the E60 and the Z4. Even though they are yesterdays cars.

 

[K-A]

The fact that people are talking about "Design being important to show Premium value" like it's something new is MARKETING AT WORK RIGHT THERE!!!! This is the Marketers pushing the fact that technology might not be so superior to lower end cars so much anymore, but the Design (which is purely subjective and impossible to tangibly validate) will always be.

This is all relative. If anything, BMW and Mercedes designs stand out less from the competition than they did decades ago. Back in the 90's, the W140, W210, E39, etc. were extremely premium in look, and expressive in Premium language compared to what else was out there. Nowadays, Hyundai's have the same lines as M-B's and new BMW's are almost indistinguishable from each other or the competitors who have ripped off their Designs so heavily.

Point being, Premium cars have ALWAYS been Design driven, however, the only difference now is, they will tell you that they're "Design driven", to hide the fact that it's getting harder for them to have an engineering superiority.... not because they're falling as much as how well the cheaper cars are doing for themselves.

 

[Human]

The fact that people are talking about "Design being important to show Premium value" like it's something new is MARKETING AT WORK RIGHT THERE!!!! This is the Marketers pushing the fact that technology might not be so superior to lower end cars so much anymore, but the Design (which is purely subjective and impossible to tangibly validate) will always be.

This is all relative. If anything, BMW and Mercedes designs stand out less from the competition than they did decades ago. Back in the 90's, the W140, W210, E39, etc. were extremely premium in look, and expressive in Premium language compared to what else was out there. Nowadays, Hyundai's have the same lines as M-B's and new BMW's are almost indistinguishable from each other or the competitors who have ripped off their Designs so heavily.

Point being, Premium cars have ALWAYS been Design driven, however, the only difference now is, they will tell you that they're "Design driven", to hide the fact that it's getting harder for them to have an engineering superiority.... not because they're falling as much as how well the cheaper cars are doing for themselves.

Well I hope SCOTT27 has read the obvious facts highlighted by K-A, it's hard trying to fool people who drive or has driven Premium cars for decades.
I always say:"DO NOT loose what made you strong, known and popular in the past - going forward."

 

[klier]

I was actually thinking if Alfa Romeo as an example of a very design-driven car company! Maybe it could work. Alfa used to make brilliantly designed, happy cars. Quality product? Innivative? Naaa... Brilliant cars anyway? Yes!

Hardly, unless you are talking about Alfa from like before the WW II

Design is only a small part of a car, and when you're starting to bank on it, sales will go the Alfa way too: Alfa sold around 100,000 cars this year, making them almost 10 times as small as the already small BMW.

for you it may look boring,but there is always a greater reason behind decisions

Uhm no. The 'greater reason' behind it is nothing more than marketing ramblings. This is not a religion we're talking about here. It's a design of a car that's either good or bad. If you're going to have to explain the 'greater reason' you have failed with your design, it's simple as that.

So, the question is. Is BMW going down the same road?

Really, is that the question?
I mean, does it look like BMW is heeding that way with cars like the new 3er, M5, 1M, 5er, X3, X5, etc. These are all the benchmark in their respective class, with cutting edge tech and state of the art driving dynamics, fuel economy, engines, gearboxes and whatever you can think of.

So if that's your question, the answer is a simple 'no'.

Anyway, I don't know what you do for a living, but you're definately not a designer. You don't know how design is made so you can't say that it's easy to copy because this is simply not true. This is one of the reasons why I said that design and marketing are not always at harmony

I have enough brains to understand the basics, and if design and marketing were in harmony we would live in a perfect world, yes. Saying they are not is stating the obvious.

And why doesn't it make any sense to say that it's not easy to copy a design? Because it is, and it happens in every major industry. All the time. I'm not going to post pictures of a Chinese car that looks like an X5, or a Samsung that looks like an Apple, because you know what I mean.
Also, I don't watch any 'making of' videos about car design. Don't see the point as that is marketing talking it's nonsense, like you said. I guess I don't have to explain I had to roll my eyes a couple of times when BMW marketing (with Scott up front) came to tell us that the new 6er cabrio design was based on 'water' or something like that.

And about Chis Chapman one more time, to keep things clear: Hyundai got him not because they want to copy the design he made for BMW, but because they recognize him as a great designer. Hyundai offered him a more important role than what he got at BMW, payed him more money and he switched. Simple.
Technology, patents on technology and decades of know-how about car making cannot switch company however, because that is the company. Designs come and go.

 

[7saen]

I have enough brains to understand the basics, and if design and marketing were in harmony we would live in a perfect world, yes. Saying they are not is stating the obvious.

I never said you don't have the brains to understand the basics. my point was that these basics are not enough to make such bold statements as the ones you made and are still making.
I joined you guys (first on GCF and now here) many years ago. at the time I was just a design enthusiast. The last four years of my life I studied Automotive and Transportation Design and have had the privilege to to take a look behind the scenes in the design studios of the 3 big Germans. And you know what? I realised that I knew nothing about design before. And truth be told I still don't know enough.
As I said before, I don't know what you do for a living, but I know that I will never argue with you about your profession and certainly not saying that it's irrelevant or that there is no greater reason behind any of its actions. Because that would be ignorant as i don't know much about it and it would just plain disrespectful.

 

[SKY]

I never said you don't have the brains to understand the basics. my point was that these basics are not enough to make such bold statements as the ones you made and are still making.
I joined you guys (first on GCF and now here) many years ago. at the time I was just a design enthusiast. The last four years of my life I studied Automotive and Transportation Design and have had the privilege to to take a look behind the scenes in the design studios of the 3 big Germans. And you know what? I realised that I knew nothing about design before. And truth be told I still don't know enough.
As I said before, I don't know what you do for a living, but I know that I will never argue with you about your profession and certainly not saying that it's irrelevant or that there is no greater reason behind any of its actions. Because that would be ignorant as i don't know much about it and it would just plain disrespectful.

Yep Hussein, but mind something: If he is critic with some design, is because he CAN. It doesn´t mind at all what he does for a living. He is a customer and a car design should aim to persuade him. You can create a fine design, and be praised by the designers, but if your target audience does not understand it, or simply dislikes it, no matter how designers praise you creation.

 

[klier]

I respect designers and admire their work on cars, but that's about it for me. I don't really want to know anything about how they come to a certain shape or line.
And if there's is a 'greater reason', it must be a technical reason. Form follows function and all...
But don't tell me there's a reason behind the fugly headlights of the F20, for example. There is none.

This is nothing personal or anything against you Hussein. I am a big fan of you, and I understand there is a lot of rocket science behind a design nowadays.