BMW and Toyota to Develop New Sports Car Jointly

[EnI]

BMW needs hybrid/electric tech for its fleet to met the required CO2 emission levels by 2020.
Mind the key to hybrid/electric cars is CAR ENERGY MANAGEMENT. Which is most a part of a software. Hardware is not much a problem (apart from batteries), yet energy management via software is! Toyota is a leader in this field for sure!
Also some cooperations in hardware supply can also lead to lower costs - since Toyota can provide economies of scale.

And both companies will join R&D forces to develop better batteries, better future car energy management, lightweight materials etc.

OK, BMW gets hybrid/electric expertise from Toyota + lower costs from joint R&D and from economies of scale.
And what Toyota gets from BMW? For starter I4 diesel engines for Toyota Europe. Expertise in sports cars. And whats most important: the CFRP parts production know-how - which BMW mastered to the degree its cost effective & fully usable in volume car production!

Also strategic bond between BMW & SGL will provide Toyota with VIP customer position within SGL Automotive.

Not to mention CF/CFRP production - with customer like Toyota on board - can reach economies of scale in the future.

IMO this BMW-Toyota alliance is a win-win situation for both carmakers. And be sure this makes VAG's trio (Piech/Winterkorn/Stadler) extremely nervous. Instantly Toyota gets great diesel engines for more European appeal, while BMW gets solid & relatively low-cost hybrid/electric energy management components ... while boths gain from economies of scale in CF/CFRP field which will allow BMW/Toyota to gain advantage eg over Audi/VW in lightweight tech & materials.

 

[martinbo]

There's far more to this than a tie-up with respect to hybrid technology. Sure, it's a facet of the relationship but am I to believe that BMW will share their much-vaunted diesel technology just like that with Toyota? [Diesel engines are vital to Toyota for success in Europe where the adoption of diesel for fuel efficiency - not hybrid tech - is massive.] BMW already have hybrid technology capability and they don't need a partner like Toyota for development collaboration on fuel cell technology alone in my opinion.

It's purely supposition on my part but this collaboration in writing doesn't nearly describe the full strategic intention.

The LFA is not a commercial venture for Toyota - we all know how expensive it is to make and that Toyota makes a loss on each one sold - it is an investor showcase for Toyota's carbon fibre manufacturing capability and know-how. No other mass-maker in the world has such a rolling showcase; not VAG, not GM, not BMW nor Daimler.

BMW have made very clear their intentions with the i sub-brand and key to the success of this is the viable, sustainable and profitable delivery of CF-based componentry.

 

[EnI]

Diesel engines ... BMW will provide Toyotas for EU market with I4 diesel engines ... I6 diesels & the use of I4 diesel engines in Lexus cars are not a part of this deal - it's just I4 diesels for EU Toyotas!

Fuel cell ... BMW's expertise in this field is almost non-existent. All the BMW's hydrogen program has focused on ICE engines fuel by (stored liquid) hydrogen, not fuel cells.

CF/CFRP ... there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between making a car made of CFRP in limited edition (prototype-like exotic cars), or for series production of volume car series. Not to mention there is a HUUUUGE difference between making CFRP surface body parts (like bonnet, roof, boot lid, doors etc) and making CFRP structure body parts (body frame etc).

I'm sure most carmakers master the prototyping process of limited-edition extra-series vehicles made of CFRP structures & parts. But be sure BMW is currently the only one with ability to make volume series!

And as far as I know BMW mastered the molding / gluing process of CFRP "combs" so effectively that such CFRP structure (use for body frame) is now meeting all the safety standards, it's extremely durable & sturdy, it's quite easy to repair (from engineering point of view ... although still very expensive compared to steel or even aluminum body frame) and it's cost-effective enough for series production!

This is not anything like prototyping a F1 car or a racing boat etc ... both of which have very short & limited life span. Not to mention they are extremely costly to manufacture.



Toyota went into alliance with BMW mostly due to CF/CFRP ... due to BMW's know-how in series production of CFRP frames, and strategic ties BMW has with SGL!

Ok, sports car expertise is more like a cherry on the top - to make an already great supercar even better (and this sports car collaboration indicates clearly BMW supercar IS coming in the future!). While great 4-cyl diesel engines could Toyota develop themselves, or find another partner to provide them with such engines for Toyota European branch.

 

[Human]

Unless, BMW knows something we don't know, and that very well may be the case, Toyota's application of CFRP technology, outside of motorsport, is only with the LFA. Granted, it's pretty impressive construction on the LFA, it can't just be the materials know-how that BMW is looking to leverage. What's Toyota looking to get out of this?

Economies of scale.

 

[Levi68]

CF/CFRP ... there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between making a car made of CFRP in limited edition (prototype-like exotic cars), or for series production of volume car series. Not to mention there is a HUUUUGE difference between making CFRP surface body parts (like bonnet, roof, boot lid, doors etc) and making CFRP structure body parts (body frame etc).

Toyota went into alliance with BMW mostly due to CF/CFRP ... due to BMW's know-how in series production of CFRP frames, and strategic ties BMW has with SGL!

The LFA does not a only CF panels, but also chassis. Eventhough BMW has know-how in series porduction of CF, ATM they do not have such cars for sale. BMW is not Nr.1 in CF series production, but McLaren is. BMW has no aluminum R8 rival and thinks to have a better car imaginary car then McLaren ? Glad this is not what BMW thinks, but what EnI wants to make us think.

 

[Merc1]

Now this is truly hilarious. We already know why BMW went to Toyota and vice versa. Amazing. Lexus needs help from BMW on the LFA? Toyota approached BMW because BMW is a leader in CF? This is truly funny stuff here.

M

 

[martinbo]

Now this is truly hilarious. We already know why BMW went to Toyota and vice versa. Amazing. Lexus needs help from BMW on the LFA? Toyota approached BMW because BMW is a leader in CF? This is truly funny stuff here.

I find it equally perplexing; all this talk of BMW being a leader in the volume production of CF-based composites and yet the most we've ever seen from the maker in series production is a CFRP roof panel. Toyota on the other hand exhibits the whole shindig - panel, monocoque and carbon fibre weaving loom invention (surely the starting block for any carbon fibre production capacity) and puts this into action in the world's most talked about rolling laboratory (not merely a series of yet-to-make-it concepts).

BMW is no leader in volume CF-based composite production until they actually start selling cars making extensive use of the material. There's a lot of posturing and propaganda but - quite simply - no tangible deliverable as yet.

If people think the LFA is merely a vanity project for Toyota then I suggest they do some research.

 

[Human]

Can it be that BMW was looking @ Toyota to actually bring production volume(s) to their stake in CRFP facility SGL? BMW bought a 15.6% stake in SGL, remember? VAG also bought shares in SGL...maybe just maybe BMW wants Toyota to swing the deal and increase the total stake in SGL for the benefit of the collaboration?

 

[EMpower]

BMW Rep Says Toyota's Sports Car will Have a Unique Design, Insider Hints at 6-Series-Based Supra

 

[Merc1]

A heavy 6-Series WILL NOT make a good base for a Supra, unless they are going to do a complete 180 on what a Supra is/was. Lexus needs a car based on the 6-Series, but such a car would never see the light of day.

M

 

[K-A]

Wow, so BMW are giving up their high end platform to Toyota? Never thought I'd see the day.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

BMW Rep Says Toyota's Sports Car will Have a Unique Design, Insider Hints at 6-Series-Based Supra

What the fudge?

No. A million times no. Don't get me wrong, I really dig the 6er and M6 but they are sporty GTs, not a full-on sports car. This is just getting weirder.

 

[Guibo]

Can it be that BMW was looking @ Toyota to actually bring production volume(s) to their stake in CRFP facility SGL? BMW bought a 15.6% stake in SGL, remember? VAG also bought shares in SGL...maybe just maybe BMW wants Toyota to swing the deal and increase the total stake in SGL for the benefit of the collaboration?

Sounds very plausible. Anyone know if SGL are a raw material provider as well, or do they deal in just finished components?
It seems reasonable that BMW are much further along in mass-produced CFRP production than Toyota is. It remains to be seen what, if any, CFRP projects Toyota have been doing outside of the LFA, which is tying up resources partly due to its handcrafted nature. Perhaps they planned to use that facility and tooling for mass-market production after LFA production ends but, seeing how far BMW have progressed, wanted to leapfrog some of those initial development steps, with a partner who has expertise and a committed supplier with volume. It's also possible that the recession, plus effects of the tsunami and rising yen which threatens to hurt profitability, have prompted Toyota into this position.

 

[Human]

Which begs the next question. BMW i.

Think, Toyota + PSA Citroen, think Citroen C1, Peugeot 107 or Toyota Aygo.

And yesterday's news...

BMW i sub-brand in crisis - report​

BMW's i sub-brand is reaching a tipping point and the automaker is reportedly considering contingency plans should sales fail to materialize.​

According to Automobile Magazine, a number of external factors - including the lack of a recharging infrastructure and austerity moves in Europe (which could result in less EV/hybrid tax credits) - are causing the company to second guess their goal of selling 100,000 i3s and 10,000 i8s annually. Despite the obstacles, BMW is reportedly committed to launching the models because it would cost "billions" to abandon the projects right now. While that's good news for fans of eco-friendly vehicles, the i1 and i5 are rumored to be on ice.​

Regardless of what happens, BMW is undoubtedly watching sales of the Chevrolet Volt, Nissan Leaf and Fisker Karma. These models have all received praise, but have lost some of their momentum after being launched.​

BMW needs Toyota ​

 

[Soup]

 

[Human]

The collaboration has endless possibilities and synergies!

Re-badge the BMW i3 as a Toyota and instantly double the little city cars sales!

Also with the BMW i8's platform (remember we have only seen but a shell or a concept and don't know the tech, suspension, CRFP etc. of the i8 + Toyota's Hybrid expertise...maybe the next LFA could also benefit from this?!)

 

[EnI]

There will be no BMW RWD platform sharing with Toyota!

Mind next gen BMW & RR RWD cars will use common modular platform. Be sure BMW won't let anyone to use the same platform. Not even Toyota. The vehicle in question is a green sportsrcar / supercar (mind eg. next generation of i8 4.seater GT, or eg i10 2-seater supercar!) - which will be build on a special architecture.

As said: BMW needs a BIG partner (PSA is just too small) for joined hybrid/electric & even more for CFRP R&D and production ... A partner that can provide economies of scale. And with Toyota, BMW is getting one great partner. That will allow BMW to significantly cut R&D cost (and also some supply & production costs in some specific cases etc). On a short run BMW gets Toyota's car energy management know-how (software) which can be easily implemented in BMW hybrids & electric cars, and the latest battery tech. That will save BMW time & money.

What Toyota gets? Instantly BMW I4 diesel engines for European Toyotas. And BMWs know-how & expertise in sports car development (mind BMW has tons of testing data from the Ring that worth more than a fortune!) - which will result in a collaboration of green sportscar/ supercar development. And be sure it will be more affordable & less exotic than LFA. Will that be a sub-LFA or LFA successor? I don't really know how Toyota will position the car. We shall see what time brings. But mind the cars won't be just a rebadged twins. After a certain point of common R&D the project will then be left to BMW & Toyota to work on alone, and come up with different designs & different characters of the both cars. But be sure the BMW car will be wear BMW i badge - so Toyota is becoming BMW's partner for BMW i R&D! At least for the green sports car at this moment.

While both companies will join the know-how & expertise in R&D in new battery, hybrid/electric, fuel-cell & lightweight tech. Which will bring advantages to both companies in the long run.

BUT ... the most significant reason why Toyota & BMW are partnering is the CF/CFRP - the automotive material of the future.

Both companies have quite some expertise in CFRP - even from F1 engagement. Toyota did a great work with LFA - but that's still a limited production vehicle, not a series / volume production one!
BMW needs Toyota to lower the R&D & production costs of CF/CFRP - while Toyota needs BMW for expertise in volume CFRP production, manipulation & parts construction.

But even more crucial reason for Toyota/BMW alliance is the SGL Group - the world's leading CF manufacturer. BMW & SKion (an investment company owned by Susanne Klatten Quandt) already control SGL Group (BMW owns 15.7% of SGL Group, and SKion 26.9% ... together: 42.6%; while VAG - 8.2% & its CF partner Voith - 9.1% own 17.3% of SGL Group). And BMW & SGL have formed a JV company SGL Automotive CF - which is specialized in CF production for the automotive industry, now almost exclusively for BMW Group (and now the BMW partner Toyota as well, I assume).

With Toyota on board BMW & SGL / SGL Automotive CF are getting an important big partner & customer who brings economies of scale, and fresh capital! BMW Group is not big enough to provide economies of scale for automotive CF/CFRP production, while BMW Group + Toyota MC certainly is.

Possible scenarios:
1. Toyota joins BMW / SKion in SGL Group takeover.
2. Or BMW/SKion go in this battle alone sometimes in the future - and Toyota then invests fresh money in SGL Automotive CF JV - as new JV partner.

In the end SGL / SGL Automotive will almost exclusively provide BMW & Toyota with CF / CFRP in volumes that will bring economies of scale! That will be a significant advantage in the mid-term for both, BMW & Toyota.

All the other carmakers will either get the CF from SGL for quite a higher price, and in limited quantities ... or will have to find another CF manufacturers to partner with. Yet no other such company isn't as big as SGL nor it has as much expertise in automotive CF!!!! Meaning: SGL as an already a leader in CF field. And under BMW & Toyota umbrella it will increase the advantage even further ... smaller CF producers won't be able to generate economies of scale in (automotive) CF production, nor won't be able to invest as much in automotive CF/CFRP R&D!

Be sure this alliance makes BMW & Toyota rivals quite nervous. Especially the VAG trio. And I'm sure not even the guys from Daimler, GM & Ford aren't quite happy.

 

[Human]

Nice, so I had the basics (Brand i) correct

 

[EnI]

Nice, so I had the basics (Brand i) correct

More or less.

The BMW i is not in trouble. But for sure the project is EXPENSIVE. Yet BMW went into the project to build an advantage over rivals & to be a pioneer in the field ... but the costs are high! And with partner like Toyota BMW can easily lower R&D & material production costs ... especially for the next gen of BMW i cars ... since current gen is to hit the showrooms in a year!

It's not like BMW i is in trouble, but BMW seeks partner to make the project more profitable & sustainable. With Toyota on board that will be achievable.

Surely Toyota could develop CFRP tech alone ... but they still need a big supplier, and the fact is the biggest and the most important one is controlled by BMW. So, to speed up the process & to make it cheaper (not being forced to invest a lot into smaller CF manufacturer to make it bigger), Toyota decided to partner with BMW - to get the access to SGL.

I'm sure BMW has such strategic plan all along: since with SGL on board BMW is much more commanding & attractive partner right now, being able to pick partners rather than being picked itself. Investment in SGL was of a very strategic nature fore BMW, and that's why they were extremely nervous when VAG bought a stake in SGL, and claimed interest in SGL.

Now, with Toyota on board BMW can be much calmer & relaxed, not being worried by VAG's next moves in SGL ...

Regarding BMW i ... The project isn't financially sustainable if run by BMW AG alone. It's obvious the project needs a partner. A partner that can provide economies of scale.

The document signed by BMW & Toyota is MoU only! It's the first step. And it's still reversible! But it has great grounds to take off & to succeed.

BMW i as premium brand for CFRP cars ... while Toyota will offer a nonpremium brand or just a Toyota models - using the same architecture / platform. As said: the first car will be a green sportscar, but I'm sure there will be more in the future.

The EV project has a HUGE potential. Especially in Asia, mainly China. It's a project with mostly Asian megacities in mind. And much less about EU & US big cities ... While I guess not attractive for the countryside at all. So, it targets the countries with extremely high urbanization rates, and with ultra-big cities

 

[Human]

More or less.

The BMW i is not in trouble. But for sure the project is EXPENSIVE. Yet BMW went into the project to build an advantage over rivals & to be a pioneer in the field ... but the costs are high! And with partner like Toyota BMW can easily lower R&D & material production costs ... especially for the next gen of BMW i cars ... since current gen is to hit the showrooms in a year!

It's not like BMW i is in trouble, but BMW seeks partner to make the project more profitable & sustainable. With Toyota on board that will be achievable.

Surely Toyota could develop CFRP tech alone ... but they still need a big supplier, and the fact is the biggest and the most important one is controlled by BMW. So, to speed up the process & to make it cheaper (not being forced to invest a lot into smaller CF manufacturer to make it bigger), Toyota decided to partner with BMW - to get the access to SGL.

I'm sure BMW has such strategic plan all along: since with SGL on board BMW is much more commanding & attractive partner right now, being able to pick partners rather than being picked itself. Investment in SGL was of a very strategic nature fore BMW, and that's why they were extremely nervous when VAG bought a stake in SGL, and claimed interest in SGL.

Now, with Toyota on board BMW can be much calmer & relaxed, not being worried by VAG's next moves in SGL ...

Regarding BMW i ... The project isn't financially sustainable if run by BMW AG alone. It's obvious the project needs a partner. A partner that can provide economies of scale.

The document signed by BMW & Toyota is MoU only! It's the first step. And it's still reversible! But it has great grounds to take off & to succeed.

BMW i as premium brand for CFRP cars ... while Toyota will offer a nonpremium brand or just a Toyota models - using the same architecture / platform. As said: the first car will be a green sportscar, but I'm sure there will be more in the future.

The EV project has a HUGE potential. Especially in Asia, mainly China. It's a project with mostly Asian megacities in mind. And much less about EU & US big cities ... While I guess not attractive for the countryside at all. So, it targets the countries with extremely high urbanization rates, and with ultra-big cities

Can it be that BMW was looking @ Toyota to actually bring production volume(s) to their stake in CRFP facility SGL? BMW bought a 15.6% stake in SGL, remember? VAG also bought shares in SGL...maybe just maybe BMW wants Toyota to swing the deal and increase the total stake in SGL for the benefit of the collaboration?

Re-badge the BMW i3 as a Toyota and instantly double the little city cars sales!
Also with the BMW i8's platform (remember we have only seen but a shell or a concept and don't know the tech, suspension, CRFP etc. of the i8 + Toyota's Hybrid expertise...maybe the next LFA could also benefit from this?!)

More or less