6 Series BMW 6-Series Gran Coupe First Drives/Reviews

[Guibo]

Because the suggestion is not that "cars" are overpriced, but that the 6er GC is overpriced when compared to the equivalent 5 Series, ergo, the 6er GC is overpriced because one is able to save over twenty thousand pounds by purchasing what is a very similar car. You posing the question as to whether either car is overpriced is not relevant at all.

So now you're saying that the 6er GC is overpriced only in comparison to the 5er. Then tell me why you thought it necessary to bring up the fact that you could buy an A7 and a hot hatch for the price of the single 6er GC? Is it now your contention that we should only examine the 6er GC as "overpriced" only within the context of competition from its 5er sibling?
The 5er is similar to the 6er, but is it exactly the same?

Completely ridiculous and irrelevant comparison when we're talking loose change compared to tens of thousands of Pounds/Euros/Dollars.

Hadn't occurred to you that tens of thousands of Pounds/Euros/Dollars might just be loose change to certain people in this world? Some people will make this much within an hour, depending on which way currencies fluctuate or which stocks they decide to sell. The point was that even in the relatively barrel-scraping, value-conscious segment of consumers, they aren't necessarily so concerned with price. Some are, some aren't. They buy what they like and what is within their means.

The 5er GT is built in very low numbers compared to the 5 Series (4-door), yet it is only slightly more than the base car. So, why isn't that the same price as the 6 Series? Simple answer is that they wouldn't be able to sell it for the same price as the 6 Series because it doesn't look "sexy".

So you're admitting that style/image does count.

This is ALL I'm saying. BMW are selling the 6 Series for a massively inflated price. I don't blame them. It's a free market and people can buy what they like. If somebody wants to spend their money on a 6 Series then good on them.
We seem to agree on these points, but your assertion that people who are rich and who want a 6er GC will still buy one does not mean that the 6er GC is not overpriced.
What exactly is the issue with what I'm saying?!!

The issue is that you still have not provided any details about where BMW plans to position the 6er GC with regard to the 5er, or whether they've missed their projected sales targets.
The issue is that you seem to have a fundamental disagreement with how the free market works, despite your claim that you understand it. For is it not a fundamental tenet of a free market that an item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it? Is it your assertion that whether the 6er GC is "overpriced" should depend on the views of people who are not rich?

 

[Guibo]

Guibo you are using volumes built as reasons for the extra cost, seriously flawed argument here when nothing is really bespoke and the only reason why there will be so little 6GCs built is it's over inflated retail price. You bring up bags and burgers that have zero relevance here what so ever, different makes I can understand are argument for because status, heritage, etc can account for some of the price differences but here it's BMW vs BMW, same switchgear, drivetrain, built quality, materials used, etc, etc. A 41% increase is beyond a joke in the mind of any sane person.
I openly admit I would pick this car over either the A7 or CLS but never at this price because it just isn't worth it.

Is there really anything bespoke on a Porsche Sport Classic compared to an equivalently optioned 997 S? So now you are saying that those who pick the 6er GC are insane...interesting.
Is the bodyshell, front end, and rear end the same between the 6er GC and the 5er? Is it the same between an R8 and R8 GT? Tell me why it is OK for Audi to charge 73% more for a different drivetrain (which is not bespoke to it) in the R8 GT, but it is not OK for BMW to charge 41% more for a different bodyshell on the 6er GC (which is bespoke to it). Burgers and bags is not irrelevant as it shows that people do care about image (bags) and don't always really care what a competitor offers (price differences between burgers).

 

[Sunny]

A 41% increase is beyond a joke in the mind of any sane person.

So how much % increase is not beyond a joke in the mind of any sane person?

 

[Zafiro]

The buyers decide if 6-series is overpriced or not. No need to take the debate further since everyone have their own opinion about price.

 

[Deckhook]

So how much % increase is not beyond a joke in the mind of any sane person?

For me at least the limit is the price between E-class and CLS, like the 6GC it's exterior/interior is unique. But maybe the question we should be asking is whether all you on the other side of the pond would be willing to pay our prices for your Beemers which in the case of the 640GC SE would be $98k. It's easy to pipe about free markets when your paying less for everything. LOL

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Then tell me why you thought it necessary to bring up the fact that you could buy an A7 and a hot hatch for the price of the single 6er GC?

I didn't. I said you could buy a 5 Series and a hot hatch for the price of a 6er GC.

You still seem to think this is some kind of Audi v BMW thing, or an attack on BMW when it's nothing of the sort.

And regarding my understanding of the free market; I studied economics to a relatively high level so I know full well what I am talking about thank you very much.

I'm afraid your long, rambling posts make them very hard to read, and the fact that you're imagining things I've said means this has lost all sense of a meaningful discussion.

 

[Guibo]

I didn't. I said you could buy a 5 Series and a hot hatch for the price of a 6er GC.
I studied economics to a relatively high level so I know full well what I am talking about thank you very much.

I'm afraid your long, rambling posts make them very hard to read, and the fact that you're imagining things I've said means this has lost all sense of a meaningful discussion.

Did I imagine it though? Did you or did you not state in post #69 of this thread:
"Put it this way, you could have an A7 AND a little city runabout OR a used hot hatch for the price of ONE 6er GC."
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...first-drives-reviews.44343/page-4#post-579746

You also said in a previous post here:
"What doesn't help the matter is that Audi offer an A7 at a much closer price to the A6, and Mercedes-Benz offer a CLS at a much closer price to the E-Class."

So clearly you were talking about the 6er GC's position relative to other company offerings, yet now you are claiming to base your value judgement solely on 6er GC price vs 5er price. Is this your real main problem with the 6er GC price?
I don't really care about your level of education. I didn't ask about your level of education. I'm asking if you disagree with a fundamental tenet of the free market, the concept that the market sets the price, that an item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. By your logic, if people (free from any coercive force whatsoever) continue to pay a price for something, then that item continues to be overpriced. Tell me the logic behind that.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Did I imagine it though? Did you or did you not state in post #69 of this thread:
"Put it this way, you could have an A7 AND a little city runabout OR a used hot hatch for the price of ONE 6er GC."
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...first-drives-reviews.44343/page-4#post-579746

Ok, I do apologise. I completely forgot about that post. I thought you were talking about a later post when I talk about buying a 535d and a hot hatch for the price of a 6er GC. That was in my mind rather than the previous one.

Having said that, what does it change? You can have an A7 and a hot hatch, or a 5er and a hot hatch, for the price of a 6er GC. So what?

You also said in a previous post here:
"What doesn't help the matter is that Audi offer an A7 at a much closer price to the A6, and Mercedes-Benz offer a CLS at a much closer price to the E-Class."

So clearly you were talking about the 6er GC's position relative to other company offerings

No, I'm NOT CLEARLY talking about the ger GC's position relative to other company offerings. I've said MANY times that I think the 6er GC is overpriced when you compare it with the 5er. Understand? Now just accept I have a different opinion to you. I can accept you have a different opinion to me.

You really should just give it a rest now.

 

[Guibo]

For me at least the limit is the price between E-class and CLS, like the 6GC it's exterior/interior is unique. But maybe the question we should be asking is whether all you on the other side of the pond would be willing to pay our prices for your Beemers which in the case of the 640GC SE would be $98k. It's easy to pipe about free markets when your paying less for everything. LOL

But why should the E-Class vs CLS automatically be the limit for what BMW decides to do with the 6er GC? You know for a fact that BMW are aiming at the same exact production ratios that Mercedes sees for its cars? Porsche didn't seem to give a crap that convertibles tend to cost more than coupes (an argument of objective value for money deserving of its own thread), yet you did not seem to argue so vehemently against Porsche's pricing with regard to the Boxster/Cayman.
We pay less, but one could also argue that we are receiving less benefits. BMWs (including the 5er) cost more over there, but then so does just about everything. Moot point.

 

[Deckhook]

Define a free market, in my opinion what we have and have always had is a manufacturer deciding how much they can get away with before people say that price is ridiculous and stop buying, obviously as price goes up then numbers sold go down. What BMW are doing different to either Audi or Mercedes is price the 6GC for the richer client which in turn makes it much more exclusive, now you may say this is all good and fair in a free market but it still doesn't stop the fact they are screwing the consumer.

Little respect for their money in my opinion if willing to accept this kind of increase.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

What started out as a mild debate, throwing a few opinions out there with a bit of discussion back, has now been turned into a free for all. Guibo, you're right. Everything you say is correct and my opinion is wrong. The 6er GC is not overpriced and is definitely worth 20,000 Pounds, Euros, Dollars, clams, Kyats etc. more than the 5 Series.

Now, let's keep this topic to reviews of the 6er GC.

 

[Guibo]

Ok, I do apologise. I completely forgot about that post. I thought you were talking about a later post when I talk about buying a 535d and a hot hatch for the price of a 6er GC. That was in my mind rather than the previous one.
Having said that, what does it change? You can have an A7 and a hot hatch, or a 5er and a hot hatch, for the price of a 6er GC. So what?

Clearly I was not talking about that later post. It would make little sense for me to even consider that later post if I'm shooting down your theory that you were only interested in a BMW vs BMW price comparison.
And what if you don't want a 5er and a hot hatch? How does buying a 5er and a hot hatch get you exactly the same product and experience as buying a 6er GC?

No, I'm NOT CLEARLY talking about the ger GC's position relative to other company offerings. I've said MANY times that I think the 6er GC is overpriced when you compare it with the 5er. Understand?

Then why would you even mention those other cars from other manufacturers...?
You could claim that the 6er GC is overpriced when compared to the 5er, or one could argue that the 5er is underpriced compared to the 6er GC, or that the 6er GC is underproduced compared to the 5er and that both prices are right. 41% higher price, yet maybe 800% lower volume. Now what?

Now just accept I have a different opinion to you. I can accept you have a different opinion to me.

I can accept that you have a different opinion. Yet you go off on me about "imagining" things that I clearly haven't. I'm just curious why you feel it necessary to rail against some fundamental concepts behind an economic theory much of the free world has adopted. So far, you've accepted that the 5er is built in much greater quantities than the 6er GC. That the 5er GT doesn't cost much more because it isn't as sexy as a 6er (ie, styling matters). You haven't provided any details of where BMW would like to position the 6er GC, nor sales targets of the 6er GC wrt the 5er, nor can you show that BMW have missed those targets. All you've done is explain why you wouldn't personally buy one (and I have no problem with that), but you haven't made the case that the 6er GC's price is inordinately inflated. So tell me why, if people vote with their own money and buy a product, that product is overpriced.

 

[tomazino]

So, E coupe is overpriced over C klass (same platform) or A3 over Golf (same platform)?

 

[EnI]

 

[Sunny]

But maybe the question we should be asking is whether all you on the other side of the pond would be willing to pay our prices for your Beemers which in the case of the 640GC SE would be $98k. It's easy to pipe about free markets when your paying less for everything. LOL

LOL, don't pay for it then, you are talking as if someone put a gun to your head and forced you to pay for it. Do you think manufacturer's are selling cars for less here out of their magnanimity?

or A3 over Golf (same platform)?

and same engine and driveline and general shape of the body and yet you pay 25% more for an A3 over a Golf here. But, hey, that is money well spend.

 

[Deckhook]

So, E coupe is overpriced over C klass (same platform) or A3 over Golf (same platform)?

The Golf and A3 might share similar amounts in common as the 5er and 6GC do but as I keep reminding as with other examples the Golf and A3 aren't the same company as one is Volkswagen and the other Audi, one premium brand and the other more mainstream.

 

[Guibo]

Define a free market, in my opinion what we have and have always had is a manufacturer deciding how much they can get away with before people say that price is ridiculous and stop buying, obviously as price goes up then numbers sold go down. What BMW are doing different to either Audi or Mercedes is price the 6GC for the richer client which in turn makes it much more exclusive, now you may say this is all good and fair in a free market but it still doesn't stop the fact they are screwing the consumer.
Little respect for their money in my opinion if willing to accept this kind of increase.

A free market, as I understand it, is largely just as you've described it: The manufacturer and consumers set the price of what a product should sell for, ie. its worth. Relatively free from government interventions as regards to price, volume, etc. The most obvious point is the relevance to buying consumers. Quite obviously, what a 13-year-old thinks of a BMW has little to do with where BMW will price its cars. By the same token, what that 13-year-old's mother (who has 6 other kids to feed and has a combined household income of 50k) thinks of that BMW is also immaterial to whether the BMW is worth more than an entire salary.
From there, we would need to know what those who can realistically afford that BMW have to say about it. If it's too much money (ie, doesn't fit their sense of style or whatever), then they will balk and the price goes down, or the product goes out of production. So that gets us to the debate of which consumer is getting "screwed" as one could argue that any consumer who can only afford a Ford/Chevy/Mazda yet wants a 5er/E-Class/A6 is also being "screwed." Is it the 13-year-old? His mother? Or is it the rich bankers/CEO's of this world? Please forgive me if I don't feel so troubled by the plight of the 1%ers who can probably easily afford a 20k hit within any hour depending on which way stock markets go.
Your assumption is that BMW have similar views of where the 6er GC is to be positioned, and that they are looking for similar levels of production of sedan:"coupe" as rivals. Do you know this for a fact to be true?

 

[Sunny]

The Golf and A3 might share similar amounts in common as the 5er and 6GC do but as I keep reminding as with other examples the Golf and A3 aren't the same company as one is Volkswagen and the other Audi, one premium brand and the other more mainstream.

So according to your idiotic logic it makes perfect finacial sense to pay a premium for a different brand but paying for a different body shape/style is ridiculous...

 

[Deckhook]

Clearly they aren't going to sell in the kind of numbers that an A7 or CLS will but that isn't nor has been my point and I not think has been Betty's point either. Our complaint is the opinion that the 6GC is somehow worth more than either of these others. To me it shows total disrespect from there core customer base and the only people defending this pricing policy are true fanboys.

 

[Guibo]

The Golf and A3 might share similar amounts in common as the 5er and 6GC do but as I keep reminding as with other examples the Golf and A3 aren't the same company as one is Volkswagen and the other Audi, one premium brand and the other more mainstream.

And that automatically makes it justifiable for VAG to price the A3 like that? What happened to objective material benefit, costs of development, etc, being the primary justifiers of price? Is it not possible that BMW have positioned the 6er GC as a more premium model within a premium brand that is becoming increasingly mainstream?