6 Series BMW 6-Series Gran Coupe First Drives/Reviews

[Cashmere]

Holy hotness. As long as you dont spec the GT with poverty edition wheels, it really does look the part!

 

[martinbo]

Now that is the 6er Gran Coupé's money shot right there! Phwoaar...

 

[K-A]

That indeed is its quintessential WOW shot. Damn. I wish the front overhang was slightly more concise.... but, DAMN.

 

[klier]

Do we have ANY pics of this thing next to an F10? I am supremely interested to see how the F10 plays out next to it.

I am anxiously waiting for this! And they better be real-life pics of the cars side-by-side from several angles!

 

[K-A]

Same! I think it will be very "telling" as to how the 6er makes the F10 look in terms of their relationship with each other, IRL, not press pics, and from all angles as well.

 

[Deckhook]

Now that is the 6er Gran Coupé's money shot right there! Phwoaar...

Agreed and I do realise it's looks have to count for something but the question is ................ does this shot make it worth an extra £20k?

 

[K-A]

That's what I want to find out. Someone put an F10 next to that car and snap a picture of it! Shocked that we haven't seen this yet (not talking about separate pics, but 2 cars in the same shot).

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Agreed and I do realise it's looks have to count for something but the question is ................ does this shot make it worth an extra £20k?

GBP 21,000 in M Sport guise.

 

[klier]

Tell me when you guys are done with a quenstion that noone can answer....
There is enough of a business case to make this car, and that's all there is to it. Plus, a car like the 6er suits BMWs image perfectly.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Tell me when you guys are done with a quenstion that noone can answer.....

I was merely pointing out to Deckhook that it is slightly more than a 20K premium over the equivalent 5 Series in M Sport guise.

I had a good debate with South yesterday, and then Martin added his thoughts. That's what a forum is all about. I have no time for blind rhetoric without any reasoning.

 

[Zafiro]

Not the best comparison but its the best I found

 

[Guibo]

That's EXACTLY what it is. "Image". You're paying your extra GBP 20,000 for the "image".

Of course it does. If I walk into an Audi showroom to buy a two seat, mid-engined coupe with a V10 engine I've got a choice of one (I wouldn't walk into a BMW showroom for obvious reasons )

The post you're quoting referenced appearance/styling and image. But what's wrong with paying extra for styling and image if you have the money? A Louis Vuitton handbag may not be objectively better than a $40 bag at a discount retailer; yet that does not mean that the LV bag is not worth the money. In the premium class, image counts for a lot. Go ahead and try to refute that.
Whether Mercedes charges differently for the CLS vs E-Class is Mercedes's business. Whether Porsche charges more for the Cayman when almost everyone else charges more for a convertible version is Porsche's business. Those items are charged in accordance with a plan for profit and until these cars bomb due to lack of sales, then there's no use saying something is overpriced.
You have a choice of a V10 engine in the R8, but is the R8 GT really that much faster than a standard V10? Maybe on a racetrack or in mag journo comparison settings, but in most any A-to-B scenario with your typical owner (ie, banker/broker/CEO/etc), even a V8 R8 is not likely to be meaningfully slower than the R8 GT (which costs 73% more). And how does Audi justify charging 14,800 euros more for the Spyder when the regular cabrio vs coupe is only 12,100 euros different? Clearly, there is more to pricing than what you are objectively getting, even within the same brand. An R8 GT Spyder is not objectively better than the standard GT which costs nearly 15k euro less; a safe guess would be that it is slower, noisier, and lacks a bit of torsional rigidity.

Now, I walk into a BMW showroom for a four-door, high performance diesel......
...
Me: OK, I'll have a 535d and I'll spend the GBP 20,000 on a fun hot hatch or a track car.
BMW Salesman: Wise choice sir.

And someone else in the same scenario might be...
Customer: The 535d was nice but it's as common as f*ck as even two of my neighbors' daughters each have one, and having seen a few 6er GC on the road, I've found that's the car I actually wanted. Would you be willing to refund on the 535d?
BMW Salesman: Sorry, we don't have a money back guarantee.
Customer: Yes, but I really like the 6er GC and realize now that I shouldn't have been so stingy on what is essentially a luxury item.
BMW Salesman (polite version): It's entirely possible you should have thought about that before buying, sir.
BMW Salesman (under his breath): What kind of knob spends GBP 30,000 on something that he does not want?

Point being, yeah, you could have a 535d and a fun hot hatch. You could have a lot of things. You could have a Mazda that will get you to work in the same amount of time and invest the rest in things that actually make money. Wow, there are actually alternatives in a free market. So what? None of this really matters if it's the 6er GG that you want and you can afford it.


The issue of the 6er GC being less practical than the 5er is also a moot point, as the rich have shown time and again a penchant for buying things of intrinsic value to them (style/image) which would be scoffed at by the vast majority who value things like practicality. That's sort of the point of being wealthy: Being able to buy things you like, not just what is practical or what you merely need.

 

[Deckhook]

^Guibo, the problem with your argument is both cars aren't manufactured by both brands at different ends of the quality/status scale like your handbag example they are both BMW using identical technology and equipment. In the case of the 535d and 640d there's nearly a 41% increase in RRP, that's the kind of percentage difference one sees between an Audi S8 and a Bentley Conti GT. Using the difference between the two R8 examples doesn't work either because in the case of the 535d and 640d everything is identical not a 4.2v8 vs a 5.2v10 with 100hp more.

This whole "free market" is a cop out in my opinion, just because there's people willing to pay through the nose does make it right. A perfect example of this is your American market, you cars are significately cheaper than Europe simply because you are willing to pay our prices, maybe if you did then you might understand the point we are making in the first place.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

The post you're quoting referenced appearance/styling and image. But what's wrong with paying extra for styling and image if you have the money? A Louis Vuitton handbag may not be objectively better than a $40 bag at a discount retailer; yet that does not mean that the LV bag is not worth the money. In the premium class, image counts for a lot. Go ahead and try to refute that.

Without wanting to carry on this argument any longer as I think I made my feelings clear yesterday, and had a good debate about them, any more would be boring. Your post contained many flaws, so I can't respond to all of them, but...........

And how does Audi justify charging 14,800 euros more for the Spyder when the regular cabrio vs coupe is only 12,100 euros different?

Obviously the figure that matters is the PERCENTAGE increase over the coupe, so using the raw figures you mention here is irrelevant.

Clearly, there is more to pricing than what you are objectively getting, even within the same brand. An R8 GT Spyder is not objectively better than the standard GT which costs nearly 15k euro less; a safe guess would be that it is slower, noisier, and lacks a bit of torsional rigidity.

I understand why you chose to compare the R8 GT and GT Spyder due to the relevance with me, but these examples are at the extreme end of the market and are hardly a good example when discussing more mainstream cars like the 5 and 6 Series.

Point being, yeah, you could have a 535d and a fun hot hatch. You could have a lot of things. You could have a Mazda that will get you to work in the same amount of time and invest the rest in things that actually make money. Wow, there are actually alternatives in a free market. So what? None of this really matters if it's the 6er GG that you want and you can afford it.

You keep talking about LV and Mazda etc., but this isn't my argument. You could argue ANY premium manufactured car is a waste of money when a cheap Dacia or Hyundai can do exactly the same job for less. I understand you can't place a price on perceived value. But I am talking about two cars where the only REAL difference is the shape of the bodyshell and the interior, and you'll pay more than twenty thousand pounds for the privilege. Engines, switches, buttons, leather, instrument guages....they're all the same. This isn't comparing a Mazda with a BMW and saying the BMW is a waste of money. This is comparing two cars which are essentially the same but one costs a massive amount more.

I'm merely pointing out that the 6 Series seems rather expensive. I don't blame BMW for maximising profits.

What I do find a bit cynical is that the 535d and 640d share exactly the same engine and power, so why do they apply the 40d moniker to the 6 Series and the 35d moniker to the 5 Series? Simply to make it look like you're getting more for the extra money you have to spend on the 640d.

Anyway, I'm sure people don't want to waste they're time reading this over and over again, so let's get back on topic.

 

[Guibo]

^Guibo, the problem with your argument is both cars aren't manufactured by both brands at different ends of the quality/status scale like your handbag example they are both BMW using identical technology and equipment. In the case of the 535d and 640d there's nearly a 41% increase in RRP, that's the kind of percentage difference one sees between an Audi S8 and a Bentley Conti GT.

This whole "free market" is a cop out in my opinion, just because there's people willing to pay through the nose does make it right.

And you are quite certain that all LV handbags have a perfectly predictable size/price ratio? Why does it matter what the price increase is between the 535d and the 640d vs the Audi S8 and Conti GT? Your assumption is that one or either of these represent good value. How do you know that one (or both) are not likewise overpriced? Even in the extreme price-conscious class, do you honestly think most people in a Burger King are going to walk out if the single vs double patty price difference isn't the same as you might find in a McDonald's? In the luxury class, do you think a person buying a Breitling chronograph isn't going to buy one model over the other on the basis that IWC (for example) offers ones that are closer in price with respect to certain features or accuracy? I think in either case, most people in each buying demographic won't give a sh1t: They buy what they like (or is convenient) and what is within their means.
If the 6er costs 41% more than the 5er, yet is built in, say, only 9% of the volume, what's the problem here? Tell me how many Audi S8s were built.
You clearly have a problem with the free market. It's not a cop out. It's the most important reason why luxury goods are priced the way they are. If people refused to pay these prices, do you think BMW/etc would continue to price them like this? It's because people are willing to pay through the nose (your assumption, which may be wrong, as some of these 6er GC coupe buyers might not even think twice about piling on 10-20k in options) that luxury items are priced that way. It doesn't make it wrong, and in place of a communist/socialist system that you seem to advocate, I think it is the most "right" way for the market to operate: Let buyers decide the price of a product. Not some guys on a car enthusiast forum which may have a very different sense of value compared to what the buying public at large, in this segment, might have when approached with the same choices.

 

[Guibo]

Obviously the figure that matters is the PERCENTAGE increase over the coupe, so using the raw figures you mention here is irrelevant.

But why would it matter as a PERCENTAGE?? Your argument seemed to be that prices of costs to build should be reflected in the purchase price and that anything above and beyond is gross profiteering. So tell me why it costs anymore to build an R8 GT Spyder over an R8 GT compared to a regular R8 Spyder over a regular R8.

I understand why you chose to compare the R8 GT and GT Spyder due to the relevance with me, but these examples are at the extreme end of the market and are hardly a good example when discussing more mainstream cars like the 5 and 6 Series.

An R8 GT is hardly at an extreme of the market, when there are Aventadors and Huayras out there. The 5er and 6er are more mainstream but they are still considered luxury, premium goods. In which case, value for money in objective terms is hardly the most important factor.

You keep talking about LV and Mazda etc., but this isn't my argument. You could argue ANY premium manufactured car is a waste of money when a cheap Dacia or Hyundai can do exactly the same job for less. I understand you can't place a price on perceived value. But I am talking about two cars where the only REAL difference is the shape of the bodyshell and the interior, and you'll pay more than twenty thousand pounds for the privilege.

So? If you have the money and like the bodyshell, what's the problem? If you can't place a price on perceived value, then you are in no position to say the 6er GC is overpriced. You would have to know a little more about where BMW wants to position this product (as common as muck as the 5er?), how badly they've missed sales targets, etc. Could you tell me more specifics about this?
You've missed my point about LV and Mazda: Image (and styling) does count. To those with the means, if they prefer the sporty nature that a low-slung roofline gives, the relative rarity of a 6er over a 5er, then what is your problem here?

I'm merely pointing out that the 6 Series seems rather expensive. I don't blame BMW for maximising profits.

It is rather expensive, but maybe that's the way BMW planned it. It certainly hasn't planned it to be a match for the 5er in terms of production volume, as past 6er production has run only at ~9% of what 5er production has been.
Then whom are you blaming for the price disparity if not BMW?

What I do find a bit cynical is that the 535d and 640d share exactly the same engine and power, so why do they apply the 40d moniker to the 6 Series and the 35d moniker to the 5 Series? Simply to make it look like you're getting more for the extra money you have to spend on the 640d.

If you're trying to take potshots at BMW for their confusing (if not downright stupid) engine nomenclature, you'll get no argument from me. However, I think most people ready to drop 60 large are either going to be discerning enough to realize they're getting the same engine, or they're not going to care so much about the naming convention.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Your assumption is that one or either of these represent good value. How do you know that one (or both) are not likewise overpriced?

Because the suggestion is not that "cars" are overpriced, but that the 6er GC is overpriced when compared to the equivalent 5 Series, ergo, the 6er GC is overpriced because one is able to save over twenty thousand pounds by purchasing what is a very similar car. You posing the question as to whether either car is overpriced is not relevant at all.

Even in the extreme price-conscious class, do you honestly think most people in a Burger King are going to walk out if the single vs double patty price difference isn't the same as you might find in a McDonald's?

Completely ridiculous and irrelevant comparison when we're talking loose change compared to tens of thousands of Pounds/Euros/Dollars.

If the 6er costs 41% more than the 5er, yet is built in, say, only 9% of the volume, what's the problem here?

The 5er GT is built in very low numbers compared to the 5 Series (4-door), yet it is only slightly more than the base car. So, why isn't that the same price as the 6 Series? Simple answer is that they wouldn't be able to sell it for the same price as the 6 Series because it doesn't look "sexy".

This is ALL I'm saying. BMW are selling the 6 Series for a massively inflated price. I don't blame them. It's a free market and people can buy what they like. If somebody wants to spend their money on a 6 Series then good on them.

We seem to agree on these points, but your assertion that people who are rich and who want a 6er GC will still buy one does not mean that the 6er GC is not overpriced.

What exactly is the issue with what I'm saying?!!

 

[Betty Swollocks]

An R8 GT is hardly at an extreme of the market, when there are Aventadors and Huayras out there.

The presence of an even more expensive supercar does not imply that an R8 GT is not at the extreme end of the market. It's an extremely rare supercar, built in extremely small numbers. I think you'll be on your own if you think otherwise.

So? If you have the money and like the bodyshell, what's the problem? If you can't place a price on perceived value, then you are in no position to say the 6er GC is overpriced.

Just because somebody is willing to pay an "x" amount of money for "y", it doesn't mean that it's not overpriced!

As an example, hotels which increase their rates due to a sporting event. Somebody might pay $500 for a room which on any other day of the year would cost $100. Just because somebody walks up to reception and pays for a room, it doesn't mean that the room represents good value for money!

If you're trying to take potshots at BMW

I think this statement speaks volumes. You seem to think what I'm doing is "taking potshots". I'm doing nothing of the sort. Why do half the people on here think somebody has an agenda when they post? It's unbelievable.

Anyway, this continual disruption of the thread is really not necessary, especially when I'm merely making an observation. So, let's leave the bickering please.

 

[Guibo]

The presence of an even more expensive supercar does not imply that an R8 GT is not at the extreme end of the market. It's an extremely rare supercar, built in extremely small numbers. I think you'll be on your own if you think otherwise.

And you think it's more rare than a Huayra? I think you'll be on your own if you think otherwise. Err...so far you have been talking about price, your #1 complaint against the 6er GC. The R8 GT doesn't cost as much as the Aventador or Huayra, not to mention the likes of the Veyron, One-77 etc. It's not at the extreme end of the market; it's simply more expensive than most sportscars.

Just because somebody is willing to pay an "x" amount of money for "y", it doesn't mean that it's not overpriced!
As an example, hotels which increase their rates due to a sporting event. Somebody might pay $500 for a room which on any other day of the year would cost $100. Just because somebody walks up to reception and pays for a room, it doesn't mean that the room represents good value for money!

Then you have a fundamental disagreement with how the free market works.
If hotels rasie their rates due to a sporting event, and people continue to pay, then that makes it worth the price. The room could represent good value for money if another option might be to get a cheaper room elsewhere, where you might have to rent a car to arrive at the event, where there is no night life before/after the event. That the room might be available any other day of the year at $100 is a moot point: You might get the room for $100 but you also might not even have the sporting event for which you originally planned your entire trip!

And I think potshots is an apt term when you seem to not understand that most people buying don't give a crap. It's pretty irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Deckhook]

Guibo you are using volumes built as reasons for the extra cost, seriously flawed argument here when nothing is really bespoke and the only reason why there will be so little 6GCs built is it's over inflated retail price. You bring up bags and burgers that have zero relevance here what so ever, different makes I can understand are argument for because status, heritage, etc can account for some of the price differences but here it's BMW vs BMW, same switchgear, drivetrain, built quality, materials used, etc, etc. A 41% increase is beyond a joke in the mind of any sane person.

I openly admit I would pick this car over either the A7 or CLS but never at this price because it just isn't worth it.