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[KiwiRob]

Yes, absolutely true. That’s why I call buying and driving a BEV a political choice.
PS You‘re right by the way. I‘ll bet 80-90% of the Dutch entrepreneurs who bought a BEV only did it because of the fiscal incentives and the tax penalties for ICE.

It's not a political choice in Norway for the car buying public it's the only choice.

I was at the local BMW dealer this morning, they only had 1 new ICE vehicle an M2. I was in the Audi dealer on Saturday, not a single new ICE vehicle in stock, the last new ICE they sold was an RS6 early last year. Almost all the other dealerships in town are the same, they don't have ICE vehicles in stock, not even hybrids except Toyota and Mitsuibishi.

 

[martinbo]

It's not a political choice in Norway for the car buying public it's the only choice.

And so it should be.

Norway is a sophisticated, well-developed nation with a small population of just under 6 million people. It has a surface area of 324000 sq km and all of its electricity is generated via renewable energy hydroelectric plants which leverage Norway's considerable, natural hydro resources.
Norway is able to sustainably meet its energy draw requirements - day and night - with capacity to spare as a result of its small population.
According to the internet, 62% of Norway's rail infrastructure is electrified.

If we look at just Tesla's supercharging network - and also considering that most EV-owning households have their own chargers - there's little to motivate against EVs.

Given all of Norway's factors, it makes little sense to go with ICE for personal transport other than enthusiast or specialised vehicles for occasional use (e.g. sports cars or 4x4s). Norway generates 13,570 MW.

Without getting into the political aspects, let's look at a developing (more like regressing) country like South Africa.
SA has a population of just over 60 million people - 10x that of Norway - with a surface area more than 3 times that of Norway. It is a water-scarce country, with a vast portion of it being arid, so large-scale hydroelectric energy generation is unrealistic.

Electric vehicles are solely the preserve of the wealthy in South Africa. The charging network outside of personal residence and (scant) business premises is non-existent. Coupling this with SA's inability to provide sufficient electricity just to meet existing energy demands - let alone the draw imposed by a whole heap of EVs - means that EVs are unviable for even a fraction of the general populace.

As a frame of reference, Norway produces 2.26 KW per capita, sustainably. South Africa can potentially only produce 0.98 KW per capita, unsustainably, should all of its energy generation capacity be available - which it never is!

@KiwiRob - I know that you understand all of this already but I thought to put this down here to contribute some perspective around the viability of EVs in certain parts of the world (and in Norway's case, being near-mandatory) vs a complete lack of being viable in other parts.

For a country like Norway, there is no reason why the vast majority of new cars sold shouldn't be BEVs.

 

[WBarnes]

I get better range in winter for two key reasons: because it’s colder the AC has to run far less compared with summer and also because of the colder air the engine runs more efficiently. In winter I get 5.7 l/100 km, in summer 6.0 l/100 km in mixed use with my 320d. So, I figure it’s personally circumstantial.

What temperatures do you get in winter though?

 

[Matski]

South Africa can potentially only produce 0.98 KW per capita, unsustainably, should all of it energy generation capacity be available - which it never is!

Also worth pointing out the massive dependence on Coal down there in South Africa, with around 80% of generation coming frim the black stuff. Those with EV's, that aren't using the little power that comes from renewables, are certainly not 'pollution' free...

... with that said, whilst probably not practical at national scale, residential solar seems to be a stronger proposition in ZA than in most places?

edit: just as a bit of context for my statement, a friend of mine pretty much runs his EV exclusively off solar, that's here in GB where you can see the potential solar energy is half what it is in ZA, and far more seasonal. I understand this is still highly dependent on the use case, but perhaps where part of Norway's advantage comes from it's potential for Hydro and pumped storage, South Africa's can come from solar.

 

[kiki voinea]

And so it should be.

Norway is a sophisticated, well-developed nation with a small population of just under 6 million people. It has a surface area of 324000 sq km and all of its electricity is generated via renewable energy hydroelectric plants which leverage Norway's considerable, natural hydro resources.
Norway is able to sustainably meet its energy draw requirements - day and night - with capacity to spare as a result of its small population.
According to the internet, 62% of Norway's rail infrastructure is electrified.

If we look at just Tesla's supercharging network - and also considering that most EV-owning households have their own chargers - there's little to motivate against EVs.

Given all of Norway's factors, it makes little sense to go with ICE for personal transport other than enthusiast or specialised vehicles for occasional use (e.g. sports cars or 4x4s). Norway generates 13,570 MW.

Without getting into the political aspects, let's look at a developing (more like regressing) country like South Africa.
SA has a population of just over 60 million people - 10x that of Norway - with a surface area more than 3 times that of Norway. It is a water-scarce country, with a vast portion of it being arid, so large-scale hydroelectric energy generation is unrealistic.

Electric vehicles are solely the preserve of the wealthy in South Africa. The charging network outside of personal residence and (scant) business premises is non-existent. Coupling this with SA's inability to provide sufficient electricity just to meet existing energy demands - let alone the draw imposed by a whole heap of EVs - means that EVs are unviable for even a fraction of the general populace.

As a frame of reference, Norway produces 2.26 KW per capita, sustainably. South Africa can potentially only produce 0.98 KW per capita, unsustainably, should all of it energy generation capacity be available - which it never is!

@KiwiRob - I know that you understand all of this already but I thought to put this down here to contribute some perspective around the viability of EVs in certain parts of the world (and in Norway's case, being near-mandatory) vs a complete lack of being viable in other parts.

For a country like Norway, there is no reason why the vast majority of new cars sold shouldn't be BEVs.

Say that to some dudes above who think EVs are only sold because of "the political agenda"

Also , I want to add something to your post. Yes , it is cool that Norway has so much clean energy , but the Supercharger price is still the same as in France for example.

And I repeat : green or not , THE PRICES ARE THE SAME

So ,for a Tesla owner , having a EV in France or Norway is the same thing.

By the way , even if I am not a EV buyer because of pollution , a month ago I had a discussion with my brother-in-law that does business in Guangzhou , and does very frequent trips from Europe to there. He told me that the smog way way smaller compared to 5-10 years ago. And EVs are seen everywhere...

This is no denial : Removing fumes from towns is a win ...

 

[martinbo]

What temperatures do you get in winter though?

It varies a great deal regionally. But on average, winter lows seldom drop below zero. For Johannesburg (at 1600m) we can see as low at -5C in the height of winter but for SA's other large metros (Durban and Cape Town) such temps are unheard of. Just inland of Cape Town towards the more mountainous areas then max lows drop considerably.

Also worth pointing out the massive dependence on Coal down there in South Africa, with around 80% of generation coming frim the black stuff. Those with EV's, that aren't using the little power that comes from renewables, are certainly not 'pollution' free...

... with that said, whilst probably not practical at national scale, residential solar seems to be a stronger proposition in ZA than in most places?

Spot on. You may have heard or read about the term "load shedding" which is daily parlance in SA. It involves a sequenced process of daily blackouts to predesignated areas on a rotational basis. Load shedding can be scheduled for any time of the day, and if your area is switched off at night, you need a proper solar-inverter-battery installation to be able to continue charging your EV.

Suffice to say, given the impact of load shedding, most South Africans with the means will invest in a solar power solution for their household long before even thinking about EVs. The problem with solar is the cost of power storage for the capacity needed after sundown. During the day, the abundance of photo-voltaic means that, with even a few solar panels, you can run a middle-income house.

But add an EV into the equation and your solar solution needs to be an altogether different animal.

 

[klier]

The problem with solar is the cost of power storage for the capacity needed after sundown.

Batteries from used EVs perhaps? I see this working for people who do it.

 

[martinbo]

Batteries from used EVs perhaps? I see this working for people who do it.

Well, if there any new EV's there won't be any batteries from used ones.
Bear in mind my comment was specifically for SA context.

 

[KiwiRob]

And so it should be.

Norway is a sophisticated, well-developed nation with a small population of just under 6 million people. It has a surface area of 324000 sq km and all of its electricity is generated via renewable energy hydroelectric plants which leverage Norway's considerable, natural hydro resources.
Norway is able to sustainably meet its energy draw requirements - day and night - with capacity to spare as a result of its small population.
According to the internet, 62% of Norway's rail infrastructure is electrified.

If we look at just Tesla's supercharging network - and also considering that most EV-owning households have their own chargers - there's little to motivate against EVs.

Given all of Norway's factors, it makes little sense to go with ICE for personal transport other than enthusiast or specialised vehicles for occasional use (e.g. sports cars or 4x4s). Norway generates 13,570 MW.

Without getting into the political aspects, let's look at a developing (more like regressing) country like South Africa.
SA has a population of just over 60 million people - 10x that of Norway - with a surface area more than 3 times that of Norway. It is a water-scarce country, with a vast portion of it being arid, so large-scale hydroelectric energy generation is unrealistic.

Electric vehicles are solely the preserve of the wealthy in South Africa. The charging network outside of personal residence and (scant) business premises is non-existent. Coupling this with SA's inability to provide sufficient electricity just to meet existing energy demands - let alone the draw imposed by a whole heap of EVs - means that EVs are unviable for even a fraction of the general populace.

As a frame of reference, Norway produces 2.26 KW per capita, sustainably. South Africa can potentially only produce 0.98 KW per capita, unsustainably, should all of its energy generation capacity be available - which it never is!

@KiwiRob - I know that you understand all of this already but I thought to put this down here to contribute some perspective around the viability of EVs in certain parts of the world (and in Norway's case, being near-mandatory) vs a complete lack of being viable in other parts.

For a country like Norway, there is no reason why the vast majority of new cars sold shouldn't be BEVs.

I watched an interesting documentary last week on SA's energy problems, you're pretty well f.ucked. I don't understand why the government isn't investing in large scale solar along with onshore and offshore wind.

Don't get me wrong I'm not upset or annoyed at Norway's decision. I converted, I wouldn't go back unless I could buy a nice weekend car.

 

[KiwiRob]

Say that to some dudes above who think EVs are only sold because of "the political agenda"

Also , I want to add something to your post. Yes , it is cool that Norway has so much clean energy , but the Supercharger price is still the same as in France for example.

And I repeat : green or not , THE PRICES ARE THE SAME

So ,for a Tesla owner , having a EV in France or Norway is the same thing.

By the way , even if I am not a EV buyer because of pollution , a month ago I had a discussion with my brother-in-law that does business in Guangzhou , and does very frequent trips from Europe to there. He told me that the smog way way smaller compared to 5-10 years ago. And EVs are seen everywhere...

This is no denial : Removing fumes from towns is a win ...

The price parity for Tesla Superchargers is down to Tesla's business model, the Norwegian govt has nothing to do with it. Ionity has dropped its price to match Tesla last week.

My fiend in India enjoyed the covid lockdown because for the first time in his adult life he could see the sky in New Delhi.

 

[kiki voinea]

I watched an interesting documentary last week on SA's energy problems, you're pretty well f.ucked. I don't understand why the government isn't investing in large scale solar along with onshore and offshore wind.

SA looks like it still has apartheid issues in 2024 . Wasn't last year that a government official started chanting against whites over there?

Government....A joke

 

[Matski]

All you need to do is sell people on the cost benefits

... and provide suitable enroute and/or destination charging.

I'll carry this on here instead of the Macan Thread as it's more relevant to the current discussion.

Norway, for example has a housing stock that is ~75% detached houses, compare that to the UK, where that number falls to ~<27%.

Making the reasonable assumption that most detached houses have dedicated parking, that means far more people are likely to be able to home charge in Norway, than here in the UK, where about ~48% of houses are either flats or terraced housing. These dwellings are far, far less likely to have dedicated parking where a charger can be installed or even be accessible.

Also, 35-40% of dwellings in the UK are rented, installing anything dedicated (compared to charging off whichever 230V socket in the kitchen is closest to the window) is more problematic, in terms of being viable or cost effective... in Norway, that figure drops to about 20%, so again, there is less friction in home charging. My current landlord doesn't even want e-bike batteries in the house/garage!

In short, owning an EV is simply not the same prospect for the average Norwegian as it is for the average Brit. Don't get me wrong, the financial benefits may still be there, but without home charging you're dependent on the public network, or your destination offering something... and at the moment, in some countries (like the UK, north of Watford at least), that's a sh!t experience not worthy of the potential savings.

This is a real problem that no one seems to be properly addressing here in the UK. I suspect the adoption rate here in the UK is currently largely supported by those who can home charge. It's fag packet maths but I don't think it's entirely coincidence that the market penetration of pure EV's in Norway is roughly comparable to the number of people that live in houses that lend themselves to home charging.

If that holds true here in the UK, pure electric sales could tend to plateau at a much lower percentage than Norway's impressive figure. 2023 saw a market share for BEV in the UK of 16.5%, with 2022 being 16.6% (so actually a decline versus increases in market share of PHEV, MHEV & HEV) - none of which matters for toffee... until the government starts penalising drivers of combustion engine vehicles, and then the lion's share of people will be worse off.

edit: as an open question to GCFers with EV's, @AndreB @Big Sam @kiki voinea @KiwiRob et al... where do your cars get most of their charge? Home, Work/Destination, or enroute locations?

 

[Big Sam]

edit: as an open question to GCFers with EV's, @AndreB @Big Sam @kiki voinea @KiwiRob et al... where do your cars get most of their charge? Home, Work/Destination, or enroute locations?

For me, the vast majority of kWh going into my battery come from IONITY ultra rapid chargers when travelling between Holland and Yorkshire, but my circumstances are unusual. I have a very short commute to work, so on the few days I do go in my Taycan (I often go in my other cars), I don't use much power. Most people would probably have a much higher proportion of electricity going into their BEV battery sourced from home charging. I have solar panels, so if I do that it's essentially free.

The public charging has been poor in the UK, but this year will see huge increases in the amount of public charging locations, and particularly ultra-rapid charging hubs. There's a thread on a UK-centric EV forum I frequent, and the amount of planning applications going in over the last few months is phenomenal. In fact, it seems a bit like overkill, there are that many. MFG are seemingly adding one at every petrol station there is!

I use IONITY mainly, because they're very quick and I get a special rate with my Porsche Charging Service. I know I'm in a lucky position owning a fast-charging car, but travelling on long journeys and charging my Taycan is simply a non-event. I've never had range anxiety and my journeys are barely slower than if I was in an ICE.

 

[kiki voinea]

edit: as an open question to GCFers with EV's, @AndreB @Big Sam @kiki voinea @KiwiRob et al... where do your cars get most of their charge? Home, Work/Destination, or enroute locations?

Home.

Financially : Best rate , best outcome per money

Reliability : I have a 22kW charging station. Never had an issue. The car charges in like 1 hour for the day of usage.

Haven't installed solar panels , because when I moved , I was waiting for the solar panels to drop in price (YoY) , but then Covid showed up , prices went up , and I don't think it is worth it ( ROI is too long , and if your car does not charge by the day , you won't fully use that solar energy for your car )

 

[J.E]

Internal combustion engines are going be around for a long time, because that's where the money actually is.

Mary Barra may have a cute speech about electrification, but she knows that the Silverado V8 is what makes money. That's why she is postponing the jump to electrification. New plug-in hybrid GMs are coming.

 

[AndreB]

edit: as an open question to GCFers with EV's, @AndreB @Big Sam @kiki voinea @KiwiRob et al... where do your cars get most of their charge? Home, Work/Destination, or enroute locations?

I charge at home twice a month probably because most of my driving is longer trips I put more energy enroute and hotels. I had a couple issues with broken charges and range anxiety especially now during winter. With a frozen battery range goes down 30%.

 

[KiwiRob]

Home.

Financially : Best rate , best outcome per money

Reliability : I have a 22kW charging station. Never had an issue. The car charges in like 1 hour for the day of usage.

Haven't installed solar panels , because when I moved , I was waiting for the solar panels to drop in price (YoY) , but then Covid showed up , prices went up , and I don't think it is worth it ( ROI is too long , and if your car does not charge by the day , you won't fully use that solar energy for your car )

My opinion on solar panels is they are only worth installing on a new home, as part of the capitol expenditure. Retrofitting them to an older property will take far to long to recoup the investment. When we looked at installing them on our house the payback time was estimated at 10 years.

 

[martinbo]

Retrofitting them to an older property will take far to long to recoup the investment.

Unless, as in SA's case, the rolling blackouts impact so severely on your quality of life (and work) that, in order to remain happy and productive, one simply has no choice. Also, we're seeing a faster recovery of the investment due to the significant month-on-month savings vs the increased cost of grid-supplied electricity.

 

[kiki voinea]

payback time was estimated at 10 years.

IF everything is ok , no inverter issues , no hail storm , no fantastic other storm , no burned panel , etc....

My sweet spot for solar panels is maximum 400euros per kW....I think we will be there in a few years

 

[KiwiRob]

Unless, as in SA's case, the rolling blackouts impact so severely on your quality of life (and work) that, in order to remain happy and productive, one simply has no choice. Also, we're seeing a faster recovery of the investment due to the significant month-on-month savings vs the increased cost of grid-supplied electricity.

Or one gets in a plane and leaves. The UK, Nz and Australia are full of white South Africans who have escaped for a better life.