Best solution for grip, traction and agressive cornering.

[Imhotep Evil]

Thank you Martinbo.

My rational part of my mind tells than in real life AWD is simply the way to go, and that those AWD japanese cars will be beaten by the more focused/pure and unpracticable CSL, GT3/RS types not to mention CGT or Zonda F. And the upcoming Caparo T1 well ... don't even bother.

Still my irational side, some will call it heart, yearns for the no compromise, the absolute best.

AWD cars, can be fast, very fast, but compared to the "downforcers" open wheelers/ inspired cars they are still the plebe as opposed to the GODS.

Best wishes.

 

[Matt]

You know what would probably be best.... Fancy Aerodynamics along with a fancy AWD system-but maybe thats overkill..

 

[Imhotep Evil]

You know what would probably be best.... Fancy Aerodynamics along with a fancy AWD system-but maybe thats overkill..

2 things to consider:

1. weight, is it worth it ?!
2. in the case of F1 car, the transmission in a AWD system/car can it still shift seaminglessly ?!
(I know about seamingless sequentials in RWD cars but in AWD cars)

 

[Imhotep Evil]

So in real life an AWD.

On tracks and finest unrestricted autobahn F1 and/or Caparo=F1 type of car.

 

[NarutoRamen]

So in real life an AWD.

On tracks and finest unrestricted autobahn F1 and/or Caparo=F1 type of car.

DUDE!!! That's what I said 2 pages ago...LOL


ps...about the Comparo thing...don't worry bro, I'll be able to handle A GP car no problems, I just have to stay fit...I know I have the skill and fast ass reaction time.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

DUDE!!! That's what I said 2 pages ago...LOL


ps...about the Comparo thing...don't worry bro, I'll be able to handle A GP car no problems, I just have to stay fit...I know I have the skill and fast ass reaction time.

So you're an astronaut ?!

Cause those guys are the only other ones besides F1 drivers who are phisicaly fit.

Ups, forgot you're Naruto Raikkonen.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Ups, forgot you're Naruto Raikkonen.

Shhhh....don't tell everyone, otherwise people are gonna start wanting my digital signature...LOL

Naruto Raikkonen FTW!


edit: Imhotep...check my sig!

 

[Matt]

A very good question.
As I sad it, I want here opinions, beliefs, speculation and/or scientific explanation.


So read this a little




Basicaly even a former WRC WDC is surprised/shocked by the grip.

And we know for sure that when it comes to cornering speeds nothing can touch an F1 car.

Honestly I voted for the "i dont know" section because I think "depends" is the right explanation. A porsche 997 turbo without AWD just simply wouldnt make sence. Even with it, we go through tires in our 993 like no tomorrow-however if you live in a dry climate and enjoy rwd fun-a Carrera S would make more sence than a 4S...

So the three independent factors that determine one's need for awd would be climate, preference, and whether that person enjoys track days. Personally I would choose rwd more often-because it allows for tail-out fun but if i had an overpowered 911, wet conditions, or an Audi-I would always choose the AWD option...

But thats just me.

 

[martinbo]

The biggest problem with All-wheel drive are the mechanical compromises that stem as a result. With a rear-wheel drive car, you can fine-tune the front to rear weight distribution to the nth degree irrespective of whether the engine is front or mid-mounted. It's a great advantage and goes a long way to making cars like the M3 CSL, GTB Fiorano and so on such spectacular handlers.

With AWD the mechanical solution is an exercise in compromise: you want a compact symmetrical layout a la quattro or Subaru, then you have to mount the engine ahead of the front axle. There's no getting away from this.

In the case of BMW and Mercedes where the choice is to locate the engine aft of the front axle then the mechanical componentry is signficantly heavier and more complex. The problem is getting the drive through to the front wheels, for example in the X3, the propshaft for the front axle actually passes through the sump!

All in all, there's no such thing as the perfect all-wheel drive system.

Rear-wheel drive systems have better weight distribution, less moving parts, the prospect of better mechanical longevity (no CV joints to wear) and truer steering feel.

 

[Centurion]

Sorry I'm late to the party but I'm suprised many have voted for AWD. Sure AWD increases traction but doesn't neccessarily make a car invincible. AWD is a matter of fact overrated. On a dry track AWD barely gives and advantage except for during acceleration.
Weight not to mention TYRES are much more important elements when it comes to conering at high speeds. Just take a look at the cars which holds the fastest laps times around the ring, barely any of them have AWD. AWD can only do a bad car any good, with a good car it just ruins it. Take a look at the 997TT and the 997GT3, both of them have acheived just about the exact lap times around hockenheim. Sure the 997GT3 has the advantage of a slighty stiffer suspension but it has 65hp less.
The best exemple of how little advantage AWD has in dry conditions is the Volvo S60R. Despite the very advanced AWD system the car sucks harder than All Aston Kutscher movies combined. Even the Ford Focus ST beats the Volvo aroun the ring.

Conclusion: AWD only benefits in acceleration and in bad road conditions like on gravel(hence the need for AWD in Rally) and on damp roads.

 

[PanterroR]

The best exemple of how little advantage AWD has in dry conditions is the Volvo S60R. Despite the very advanced AWD system the car sucks harder than All Aston Kutscher movies combined.

That's a good one, Luw!

 

[C.Charles]

I simply say, context is a factor.

 

[martinbo]

Sorry I'm late to the party but I'm suprised many have voted for AWD. Sure AWD increases traction but doesn't neccessarily make a car invincible. AWD is a matter of fact overrated. On a dry track AWD barely gives and advantage except for during acceleration.

That's not necessarily true Luw, AWD gives a distinct advantage with regard to corner exit speed. The forces that govern how much grip a tyre has available are not just the sideways or lateral forces but also the torque forces applied to a wheel. Simple vectors show how the sum of these accelerative and lateral forces - called the resultant - can exceed the level of grip that a tyre has. So, in a true AWD car where the power is split 50/50 or 40/60 between the front and rear axles, the torque vector is effectively halved thus allowing for a smaller resultant or higher lateral loads when accelerating out of a corner. This makes cars like the STI and EVO such devastatingly quick road machines. All-wheel drive can be an advantage because the do increase the levels of outright grip under acceleration.

Look at how a heavier Audi RS4 is quicker around Bedford than a two-wheel drive M3 CS. And that's got much less to do with the Audi's extra horses.

Take a look at the 997TT and the 997GT3, both of them have acheived just about the exact lap times around hockenheim. Sure the 997GT3 has the advantage of a slighty stiffer suspension but it has 65hp less.

The 911 GT3 weighs 1395 kg and the 911 Turbo weighs 1580 kg. The 911 Turbo runs in predominantly rear wheel drive with 80% of torque directed to the rear wheels. Because a 911's engine sits out back the weight over the rear axle greatly enhances grip and traction. The AWD in a 911 Turbo is there to increase its day to day usability. It is, afterall, the benchmark for everyday supercars. In Europe, particularly, not every day is bone dry...
The 911's unique layout means that AWD is simply not a necessity for dry weather driving. For wet weather, AWD is a great advantage and let's face it, we do a lot of driving in the rain.

The best exemple of how little advantage AWD has in dry conditions is the Volvo S60R. Despite the very advanced AWD system the car sucks harder than All Aston Kutscher movies combined. Even the Ford Focus ST beats the Volvo aroun the ring.

The Volvo S60 and other Haldex-coupling equipped cars run predominantly in front wheel drive mode. Only when grip starts to run out (i.e. often a little too late) does the centre differential engage the rear-wheels. It's a good AWD system but definitely not a good AWD car in the complete or holistic sense... See those Subaru comparison videos elsewhere on this forum? There's a classic example of how different mechanical solutions can have a marked influence on an AWD car's all round competency.

Conclusion: AWD only benefits in acceleration and in bad road conditions like on gravel(hence the need for AWD in Rally) and on damp roads.

Nope, that's not a conclusion - it's a generalisation.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Look at how a heavier Audi RS4 is quicker around Bedford than a two-wheel drive M3 CS. And that's got much less to do with the Audi's extra horses.

But wasn't the RS4 on Pirelli Zero Corsa tyres and equipped with ceramic brakes ?!

I mean brake and tyre advantage.

Also I do recall that the drivers kind of said they didn't pushed the M3 CS quite to the limit.

The 911 GT3 weighs 1395 kg and the 911 Turbo weighs 1580 kg. The 911 Turbo runs in predominantly rear wheel drive with 80% of torque directed to the rear wheels. Because a 911's engine sits out back the weight over the rear axle greatly enhances grip and traction. The AWD in a 911 Turbo is there to increase its day to day usability. It is, afterall, the benchmark for everyday supercars. In Europe, particularly, not every day is bone dry...
The 911's unique layout means that AWD is simply not a necessity for dry weather driving. For wet weather, AWD is a great advantage and let's face it, we do a lot of driving in the rain.

To my knowledge both the GT3 and Turbo also use things like active suspension and movable aerodynamics.

So it isn't exactly a pure downforce+low weight vs. AWD, now is it.

... AWD gives a distinct advantage with regard to corner exit speed ...
All-wheel drive can be an advantage because the do increase the levels of outright grip under acceleration.

Vs. regular cars.

But I'd like to know your opinion on this.
Equal tyres and brakes.

What if we add next to lower weight a seamingless transmission to the RWD car (I know that seamingless transmissions exist for RWD cars but not for AWD cars).

Can't the lower weight + super clutch compensate for lack of AWD ?!
Even on corner exiting ?!


We've seem, on same P Zero Corsa tyres, the SMG III machines like M6 taking on the straight line a car like a Gallardo (SE) despide the fact that the Gallardo was lighter, had AWD and had a few extra horses.

It was different in corners but, but what if the M6 was just as light or lighter ?!

 

[Zafiro]

Also I do recall that the drivers kind of said they didn't pushed the M3 CS quite to the limit.

No they said the tires was brand new and not "worn" in yet and it affected the laptime.

 

[ateekt]

Fancy aerodynamics with massive downforce + exotic tyre compounds, F1 like ...!

 

[arvinda]

Well, for a smooth track with corners where speeds are high enough for wings to generate downforce, its great to go the F1 way. However, on real roads, with variable surfaces, AWD is clearly worth a lot.If corners are the stop-n-go type, the AWD will will allow faster corner exit speeds. So it all depends upon the situation, and the surface. In the current format for F1 though, the added complexity and weight of AWD will render it a cul-de-sac.

 

[martinbo]

Well, for a smooth track with corners where speeds are high enough for wings to generate downforce, its great to go the F1 way. However, on real roads, with variable surfaces, AWD is clearly worth a lot.If corners are the stop-n-go type, the AWD will will allow faster corner exit speeds. So it all depends upon the situation, and the surface. In the current format for F1 though, the added complexity and weight of AWD will render it a cul-de-sac.

That sums it up nicely arvinda... and welcome to you as a new member!

Again, in give and take conditions, one system will hold an advantage over the other. Whilst I may be a big fan of AWD cars there's no doubt that a fabulous rear-driver with nice wide rear-tyres is the cleanest, most elegant solution for a high performance cornering machine.

 

[NarutoRamen]

...there's no doubt that a fabulous rear-driver with nice wide rear-tyres is the cleanest, most elegant solution for a high performance cornering machine.

And more fun! Nothing in the world like controlling a long continous drift!

 

[lambornima]

awd helps with cars getting more grip. its an efficient way of getting more power to the ground.

so when you have a racecar providing huge amounts of DF and has racing tires, there is no need for awd. but in road cars, with all things equal (ie power, weight, etc) I think awd will be faster around a track and from a standstill. In other words, if you take two Gallardos, one with the awd system removed (150-200 lbs gone) the AWD one will still be faster (this is with everything equal) except from a roll, in which case ,rwd is getting more power to the ground.