Yperion
Cornering Kingpin
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- Yannis
I agree. While AWD doesn't help for cornering as much as downforce. So i voted for downforce although a combination of the two would be ideal.
Best solution for grip, traction and agressive cornering.
- Thread starter Imhotep Evil
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I agree. While AWD doesn't help for cornering as much as downforce. So i voted for downforce although a combination of the two would be ideal.
Imhotep Evil
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Not unlees you counter balance the weight.
As I sad before, in F1 the AWD cars were slower even in rain due to the extra weight added. Ofcourse this were NOT the latest fancy AWD systems.
But the exotic tyre compounds alone provide plenty of grip. We've seen the Sport Auto test list were AM shaved 10 seconds with P Zero Corsas.
Now add massive downforce ...
And it also depends on the AWD system setup and its capabilities.
An acceptable slip angle in WRC, Dakar or drift competitions is unacceptable in F1.
As I sad before, in F1 the AWD cars were slower even in rain due to the extra weight added. Ofcourse this were NOT the latest fancy AWD systems.
But the exotic tyre compounds alone provide plenty of grip. We've seen the Sport Auto test list were AM shaved 10 seconds with P Zero Corsas.
Now add massive downforce ...
And it also depends on the AWD system setup and its capabilities.
An acceptable slip angle in WRC, Dakar or drift competitions is unacceptable in F1.
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
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I think that system is the derivative of the HICAS system that was used on the Skyline GT-R cars.
Personally, if this poll is for everyday family use then I think AWD system would just be better and cheaper to implement.
Now, from an enthusiasts stand point....RWD with exotic polymers? Why the F__k not? If it's good enough for F1 then it sure as hell is good enough for me.
Imhotep Evil
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Personally, if this poll is for everyday family use then I think AWD system would just be better and cheaper to implement.
Now, from an enthusiasts stand point....RWD with exotic polymers? Why the F__k not? If it's good enough for F1 then it sure as hell is good enough for me.
Yep in everyday use an AWD system would be a reasonable alternative.
But this will come along...
From what I've read the specs are insane. On a track I expect it to slaughter the Veyron.
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
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Oh yes...the comparo is going to be awesome. I can't wait for them to finally release the damn thig...I would love to drive one of those. That's probably the closest anyone is going to get to actually driving an f1 car.
Imhotep Evil
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Well you wouldn't be able to drive one ... without training and advanced driving lessons.
When subjected to loads of up to 3G, most likely you will black out. And there's also the risk of braking your neck without a HANS.
This is more F1 then anything else but it's still only GP2 level, F1 cars are quite more extreme anymals.
MikeJ
M-Power Meister
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I'm not exactly sure whether or not the question refers to motorsport only, but whether or not it does doesn't affect my vote.
The reason I voted for AWD is purely one of personal preference; the F1-style car would probably be faster around a track regardless of the conditions, but I've never really cared for going 'round in circles. If I were ever to drive or own either of the two machines pictured, I'd definitely choose the rally car on account of not being a racing driver myself and would quite honestly be scared s***less by the F1 car, and while the rally car still has the potential to kill me easily I'd rather take my chances with it.
Once we move away from the racing track and racing cars and onto the public roads and production cars, I think that the downforce monster loses any advantage it might have had on the track. I believe that on anything other than straight motorways the AWD car would be faster from A to B. When the conditions are less than perfect, the difference is even more pronounced.
To sum up, I have respect for the downforce type cars as achievements of technology but ultimately I think that the AWD type is a more accomplished tool for driving, especially for those of us whose last name is not Schumacher.
Of course things are not nearly as black and white as they're made to seem in this discussion.
How's that for starters?
The reason I voted for AWD is purely one of personal preference; the F1-style car would probably be faster around a track regardless of the conditions, but I've never really cared for going 'round in circles
. If I were ever to drive or own either of the two machines pictured, I'd definitely choose the rally car on account of not being a racing driver myself and would quite honestly be scared s***less by the F1 car, and while the rally car still has the potential to kill me easily I'd rather take my chances with it. Once we move away from the racing track and racing cars and onto the public roads and production cars, I think that the downforce monster loses any advantage it might have had on the track. I believe that on anything other than straight motorways the AWD car would be faster from A to B. When the conditions are less than perfect, the difference is even more pronounced.
To sum up, I have respect for the downforce type cars as achievements of technology but ultimately I think that the AWD type is a more accomplished tool for driving, especially for those of us whose last name is not Schumacher.
Of course things are not nearly as black and white as they're made to seem in this discussion.
How's that for starters?
MikeJ
M-Power Meister
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So it's all about feeling safe while driving, huh Mike?
Dang, I was supposed to write one paragraph on how it would most likely be more fun for someone like me to be driving a well set-up AWD car than some downforce missile, but it seems I forgot about that.
PanterroR
Lap Time Luminary
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Oops, sorry... I didn't mean it to sound like I took offence or anything, 'cause I sure didn't.
Imhotep Evil
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I'm not exactly sure whether or not the question refers to motorsport only, but whether or not it does doesn't affect my vote.
The reason I voted for AWD is purely one of personal preference; the F1-style car would probably be faster around a track regardless of the conditions, but I've never really cared for going 'round in circles
Well if we're talking about impact alone, an F1 car is safer.
However the acceleration of the F1 can injure your neck, while during cornering and/or braking it can kill you by braking your neck (providing you're not wearing a HANS).
Going round circles is for NASCAR and Indy and ChampCar.
I kind of agree. But it wouldn't be about going fast now would it.
To sum up, I have respect for the downforce type cars as achievements of technology but ultimately I think that the AWD type is a more accomplished tool for driving, especially for those of us whose last name is not Schumacher.
Of course things are not nearly as black and white as they're made to seem in this discussion.
How's that for starters?
Well some consider WRC drivers as more skilled due to the diferent conditions they encounter. However Carlos Sainz sad in F1 you need top athlete phisical condition vs. WRC.
And ofcourse you'll have a lower margin of error on tracks like the Monaco street circuit were 1 to 3 cm can make diference wheter you damage irreparably your car or not.
Ofcourse us normal folks won't get nowhere near that.
Now were is MartiNbo ?!
PanterroR
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Imhotep Evil
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OT, but lol, man, you crack me up with this Martimbo stuff..
It's martiNbo...
LOL, I'm tired ... it's late and {wistle; "Damn ran out of excuses"}.
Imhotep Evil
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Imhotep... no disrespect but honestly... HOW THE HELL WOULD WE KNOW!
A very good question.
As I sad it, I want here opinions, beliefs, speculation and/or scientific explanation.
So read this a little
Basicaly even a former WRC WDC is surprised/shocked by the grip.
And we know for sure that when it comes to cornering speeds nothing can touch an F1 car.
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- Martin
There’ll never be a clear cut answer as to which form of drivetrain configuration is superior. It all depends on the application (what you want the car to do) and driver preference.
No doubt about it; if you want the fastest way possible of going around a circuit on a dry surface then the lightweight, mid-engined, rear-wheel drive option is the way to go.
In this configuration, you’d want the car to be:
- as light as possible
- with the majority of the mass concentrated between the two axles (and as low-down as possible)
- with a powerful engine for a great power to weight ratio
- fitted with the widest, grippiest rubber that is practical
- and the most effective brakes possible.
A Formula 1 car (and a car like the Caparo T1) exhibits all of these vital attributes and one can’t find any quicker way of lapping a circuit than in a Formula 1 car.
A Formula 1 car is the pinnacle of performance, attaining maximum G’s not only in lateral acceleration but also forward acceleration and braking deceleration. The latter is said to be eye-poppingly stupendous. One of the reasons a Formula 1 car is so fast around a circuit is because of its amazing ability to brake as late and as hard as possible from such enormous speeds. Cars with this configuration are designed to extract maximum performance within the envelope of maintaining grip. It’s a knife-edge balancing act.
Cars like WRC racers and their road-rally kin are designed to operate in an environment where grip is often lost and the balance of the car is compromised as a result. In order to address this requirement modern rally cars from circa the original Audi Quattro have made extensive use of all-wheel drive traction to adjust the vehicle’s angle of attack once grip is lost. Pitch the car into a corner using a Swedish turn or hand-brake, turn-in resulting in oversteer and get back on the gas using the maximum tractive force available to pull you out of a corner. The variation in surface grip, texture and moisture content means that a rally car has to be very adaptable to suit the prevailing conditions. Rally cars are in fact quite at home and still massively quick on tarmac.
A Formula 1 car, I hear, isn’t too hot on a muddy dirt road…
So yes, pinnacle cars like the Carrera GT, McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda and Ferrari Enzo all exhibit the characteristics needed to be as fast on tarmac as possible. And just look at how the Carrera GT performs! It’s arguably the fastest supercar round the Nurburgring and, according to EVO it’s also the fastest supercar around Bedford too… Cars like the Ariel Atom and Caterham 260 are more track-day racers than out and out kings of the road.
What is important about those Bedford Autodrome lap times is that they paint a very clear and unbiased view of exactly how various models of varying configuration stack up against each other. Here, we can see that, in certain instances AWD is no disadvantage. Take the humble Subaru Impreza WRX STI for instance. Not very pretty, not very fast at the top-end and yet it posts an identical time to the 373 kW BMW M6. An EVO IX FQ-340 pulverises the Scoob. The STI, here in 206 kW, 2.5 litre guise, it has to be said is one of softest STI’s in memory – obviously it’s been optimised for road use and American preference for a slightly softer ride. A 235 kW 2.0 twin-scroll turbo STI Spec C Type RA-R (yes really – this does prove that the Japanese to have a sense of humour) would be much much quicker.
The only cars that would eclipse this Japanese duo are the truly spectacular supercar league. A similarly configured RS4 is significantly off the pace but still quicker than any of its direct competitors. Weight, clearly is a very large factor when it comes to cornering prowess.
So, who says all-wheel drive is slow? Y’see what all-wheel drive does for cars like the STI’s and RS4’s of this world is amazing, but what it does for cars like the BMW X5, Porsche Cayenne Turbo and Subaru Forester is just downright miraculous. Here are cars with the odds loaded against them… They have high centre of gravities, high mass and less than perfect front to rear weight distribution. And yet, they corner with amazing prowess for what they are. This is directly attributable to all-wheel drive and some clever limited slip differential technology that primarily guides torque to the front and rear axles as required.
In the wet, of course, simple physics and a rudimentary appreciation of grip co-efficients show that all-wheel drive cars are in a league of their own; hence the term coined: devastating all weather capability.
I love cars like the BMW M3, Ferrari F430 and Porsche GT3 for the purists motoring experience they provide. But I voted AWD because I have a sound understanding and experience of the benefits of AWD in real-world motoring conditions. The key here is to understand how they work, learn to react correctly once the limit has been overstepped and then have an absolute blast exploiting the amazing adjustability of cars like the STI and EVO IX. All for a fraction of the price of similarly capable machinery.
Very nice topic IE. And yes, on another day I might've voted the other way round - it's just not cut and dried.
No doubt about it; if you want the fastest way possible of going around a circuit on a dry surface then the lightweight, mid-engined, rear-wheel drive option is the way to go.
In this configuration, you’d want the car to be:
- as light as possible
- with the majority of the mass concentrated between the two axles (and as low-down as possible)
- with a powerful engine for a great power to weight ratio
- fitted with the widest, grippiest rubber that is practical
- and the most effective brakes possible.
A Formula 1 car (and a car like the Caparo T1) exhibits all of these vital attributes and one can’t find any quicker way of lapping a circuit than in a Formula 1 car.
A Formula 1 car is the pinnacle of performance, attaining maximum G’s not only in lateral acceleration but also forward acceleration and braking deceleration. The latter is said to be eye-poppingly stupendous. One of the reasons a Formula 1 car is so fast around a circuit is because of its amazing ability to brake as late and as hard as possible from such enormous speeds. Cars with this configuration are designed to extract maximum performance within the envelope of maintaining grip. It’s a knife-edge balancing act.
Cars like WRC racers and their road-rally kin are designed to operate in an environment where grip is often lost and the balance of the car is compromised as a result. In order to address this requirement modern rally cars from circa the original Audi Quattro have made extensive use of all-wheel drive traction to adjust the vehicle’s angle of attack once grip is lost. Pitch the car into a corner using a Swedish turn or hand-brake, turn-in resulting in oversteer and get back on the gas using the maximum tractive force available to pull you out of a corner. The variation in surface grip, texture and moisture content means that a rally car has to be very adaptable to suit the prevailing conditions. Rally cars are in fact quite at home and still massively quick on tarmac.
A Formula 1 car, I hear, isn’t too hot on a muddy dirt road…
So yes, pinnacle cars like the Carrera GT, McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda and Ferrari Enzo all exhibit the characteristics needed to be as fast on tarmac as possible. And just look at how the Carrera GT performs! It’s arguably the fastest supercar round the Nurburgring and, according to EVO it’s also the fastest supercar around Bedford too… Cars like the Ariel Atom and Caterham 260 are more track-day racers than out and out kings of the road.
What is important about those Bedford Autodrome lap times is that they paint a very clear and unbiased view of exactly how various models of varying configuration stack up against each other. Here, we can see that, in certain instances AWD is no disadvantage. Take the humble Subaru Impreza WRX STI for instance. Not very pretty, not very fast at the top-end and yet it posts an identical time to the 373 kW BMW M6. An EVO IX FQ-340 pulverises the Scoob. The STI, here in 206 kW, 2.5 litre guise, it has to be said is one of softest STI’s in memory – obviously it’s been optimised for road use and American preference for a slightly softer ride. A 235 kW 2.0 twin-scroll turbo STI Spec C Type RA-R (yes really – this does prove that the Japanese to have a sense of humour) would be much much quicker.
The only cars that would eclipse this Japanese duo are the truly spectacular supercar league. A similarly configured RS4 is significantly off the pace but still quicker than any of its direct competitors. Weight, clearly is a very large factor when it comes to cornering prowess.
So, who says all-wheel drive is slow? Y’see what all-wheel drive does for cars like the STI’s and RS4’s of this world is amazing, but what it does for cars like the BMW X5, Porsche Cayenne Turbo and Subaru Forester is just downright miraculous. Here are cars with the odds loaded against them… They have high centre of gravities, high mass and less than perfect front to rear weight distribution. And yet, they corner with amazing prowess for what they are. This is directly attributable to all-wheel drive and some clever limited slip differential technology that primarily guides torque to the front and rear axles as required.
In the wet, of course, simple physics and a rudimentary appreciation of grip co-efficients show that all-wheel drive cars are in a league of their own; hence the term coined: devastating all weather capability.
I love cars like the BMW M3, Ferrari F430 and Porsche GT3 for the purists motoring experience they provide. But I voted AWD because I have a sound understanding and experience of the benefits of AWD in real-world motoring conditions. The key here is to understand how they work, learn to react correctly once the limit has been overstepped and then have an absolute blast exploiting the amazing adjustability of cars like the STI and EVO IX. All for a fraction of the price of similarly capable machinery.
Very nice topic IE. And yes, on another day I might've voted the other way round - it's just not cut and dried.
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