Anyone else affected by London Riots?

[SCOTT27]

God these people are so stupid. On ebay.UK there are people selling their profits from their wares. Forty iphones ? How can someone get hold of forty iphones? I guess it will not be long before the Police come knocking. I would like to see if they tried that were I reside.
I would gladly give a personal introduction to Moses and snowflake. Moses and Snowflake being my German Shepherd and Siberian Husky respectively.

 

[Sunny]

So if 2 people go into a bank or shop and loot, cops will use real guns, but if 100 go, they won't even use rubber bullets? What bs! "3rd world" governments do a better job of protecting their law abiding citizens than this.

 

[Giannis]

So if 2 people go into a bank or shop and loot, cops will use real guns, but if 100 go, they won't even use rubber bullets? What bs! "3rd world" governments do a better job of protecting their law abiding citizens than this.

Because if 2 people go into a bank or a shop to loot, it's called a robbery. If 100 people go into a bank or a shop to loot, it's called a social problem.

It's just a matter of definitions

 

[EnI]

Politic talk was prohibited because we don't know how to behave, and when to stop. I guess today we are older, more mature ... and the world has changed. Also: I'm more interested in finding proper solutions than constantly hearing the situation is bad, and who could be directly or indirectly responsible for that. We won't solve the problem by identifying the responsible ones only. The thing has also to be fixed. But now nobody is fixing it. We only listen who (& why) is to be blamed, but nothing about the proper & lasting solutions. It scares me - because that can also mean there's no any (at least such that will satisfy most).

@Giannis

Exactly. The public reaction is different when eg. 2 robbers are shot during attempt of armed robbery, then in the case police shooting into looting mass of hundreds, killing or injuring dozens of them - since that could mean "the state / government turned against its own people".

Democracy, stability, peace & freedom (and protection of human rights in general) are fragile things. They can be gone in few days - although it took decades or even centuries to establish all that. We live in very dangerous times right now! People are VERY angry & dissatisfied! Add the fear, and stupid things can happen very quickly.

 

[Sunny]

Because if 2 people go into a bank or a shop to loot, it's called a robbery. If 100 people go into a bank or a shop to loot, it's called a social problem.

It's just a matter of definitions

Talking about definitions, think it was Max Weber in "Politics as a Vocation" who wrote that a prerequisite feature of a state/government is the "monopoly on the use of violence". So yes, time the British "government" exercised it. I seriously think the mobs need to be reminded of serious consequences of breaking the law in such a gross way - including serious bodily harm. Numbers should be an aggravating factor, not an excuse to do nothing. Otherwise all gangs/criminals have to do is network and coordinate and it automatically will cease to be a criminal act and become a "social problem".

 

[Giannis]

@Giannis

Exactly. The public reaction is different when eg. 2 robbers are shot during attempt of armed robbery, then in the case police shooting into looting mass of hundreds, killing or injuring dozens of them - since that could mean "the state / government turned against its own people".

It's all about perception, as if we are talking about the car industry. A robbery is a robbery, no matter how many people take part in it. Yet, when there are, let's say, 100 people involved, they are not identified as robbers, but as citizens. It's a shame that common sense is absent when it is needed the most...

I'm more interested in finding proper solutions than constantly hearing the situation is bad, and who could be directly or indirectly responsible for that. We won't solve the problem by identifying the responsible ones only. The thing has also to be fixed. But now nobody is fixing it. We only listen who (& why) is to be blamed, but nothing about the proper & lasting solutions. It scares me - because that can also mean there's no any (at least such that will satisfy most).

It's easy to identify the problem as it's huge. But, it's certainly not easy to fix it, as if it was a dead spark plug in a car.

The problem is social and it's general and widespread. And because it's a social problem, not a mathematical one, the problem lays in people's minds. IMO the mentality problem is far bigger than the financial problem itself. People think it's ok, it's good to get out in the streets and be part of the chaos. They think it's ok to burn shops and destroy peoples' properties. Yet in a good-working and healthy society, it's still ok to get out in the streets, but only when done in a civilized matter, when other peoples lives and rights are respected, when there is a purpose in doing so and when common sense is applied.

In this case, none of the above is there.

Mentalities take generations to change and to change, proper education is needed. But it seems that in the modern society, the good and proper education has become a luxury.

 

[Mr. M]

I'm heading to London in two weeks, not sure if I'll cancel my trip because of the current situation! But I'll still have to be back somehow as I'll be starting school in September.

 

[EnI]

What frightens we is the mellow reaction of the police - not being able to protect the people & their property. And in such case it can easily happen people start to defend their lives & property themselves - organizing (even armed!) neighborhood watch. And this is a step into chaos. There for we PAY (via taxes) the authorities to do their jobs EFFECTIVELY. UK Police (Metropolitan police in particular) completely failed. Their task is not only hunting the looters & vandals, but also TO PROTECT others (and their property) from vandalism & looting. Where was the protection? I've seen none!

 

[Betty Swollocks]

I'm heading to London in two weeks, not sure if I'll cancel my trip because of the current situation! But I'll still have to be back somehow as I'll be starting school in September.

As much as the pictures on TV are terrible, the vast majority of a very large city is peaceful.

 

[Human]

Martinbo, Fortuner, Hein, myself etc. live in a young democracy, the Republic of South-Africa and not only do we South-Africans but the world look at the western world as THE role model(s) of the term Democracy. An yet it seems we are seeing more and more social unrest in western cities. This time its London, is America next? Worrying!

What I am seeing with this rioting and looting is the youth of today, realising that this relationship is more based on trust and promises and that actually the authorities are unable to back up with action necessary to fulfil their side of the social contract. They are seeing that this is more of a promise, and realising that it can be broken, and if done so on mass, they can actually break the contract all together. By this, I mean the authorities are no longer able to protect the innocent, law abiding citizens and havoc has prevailed.

There is of course the question in everyone’s mind of why. Why are they doing this? What are they hoping to achieve. The simple answer is, because they can. And with world markets again under pressure a double dip recession is certain

 

[Giannis]

Martinbo, Fortuner, Hein, myself etc. live in a young democracy, the Republic of South-Africa and not only do we South-Africans but the world look at the western world as THE role model(s) of the term Democracy.

Which is not entirely correct.

The best form of democracy, is the one that existed in the ancient Athens. Where literally everyone had a vote in all state manners. But we are talking about quite a few years BC, when the citizens of Athens were not 4 million as they are today, but a few thousants. But even that form of democracy was not perfect, because there were still slaves, women were not equal to men, etc.

What is today called a democracy, is not a democracy exactly. It's what has evolved from the ancient democracy and is best "serving" the capitalistic countries. This can be seen with the various types of democracy that exist today. For example, in the US there are electors. In France the President has vast powers while in Greece the President is just a symbol of the old days without any powers at all.

A proper democracy is very hard to find nowadays...

 

[Michael]

Which is not entirely correct.

The best form of democracy, is the one that existed in the ancient Athens. Where literally everyone had a vote in all state manners. But we are talking about quite a few years BC, when the citizens of Athens were not 4 million as they are today, but a few thousants. But even that form of democracy was not perfect, because there were still slaves, women were not equal to men, etc.

What is today called a democracy, is not a democracy exactly. It's what has evolved from the ancient democracy and is best "serving" the capitalistic countries. This can be seen with the various types of democracy that exist today. For example, in the US there are electors. In France the President has vast powers while in Greece the President is just a symbol of the old days without any powers at all.

A proper democracy is very hard to find nowadays...

Giannis,

I am a little confused as to what you are saying. Of course anything is debatable but I think it is widely accepted in political science and in many countries that the democratic governments we see today are what democracy is in its best form. The US has what is called a representative democracy. We elect local, state, and federal officials to represent the masses as a whole. If you are saying that a true democracy is one where each person would have a vote on every single matter, then we do not have a true democracy. However, it would not be possible, like you said, in today's society to have a true/direct democracy where each person can cast a vote.

 

[Centurion]

What frightens we is the mellow reaction of the police - not being able to protect the people & their property. And in such case it can easily happen people start to defend their lives & property themselves - organizing (even armed!) neighborhood watch. And this is a step into chaos. There for we PAY (via taxes) the authorities to do their jobs EFFECTIVELY. UK Police (Metropolitan police in particular) completely failed. Their task is not only hunting the looters & vandals, but also TO PROTECT others (and their property) from vandalism & looting. Where was the protection? I've seen none!

Remember that the riots ignited because of Police shooting a guy to death last Thursday. Then there is the G20 protest last year when an officer pushed a innocent man to the ground which ended in him getting a heart attack that resulted in death. Not to mention other criticism against the police for rough handling. Thus the police being a bit softer in order not to facilitate more resentment.

It's a very delicate situation During which all eyes are on London and the police trying to exhibit their democratic powers in being able to control the population without resorting to coiersion and thus be a role model to the rest of the world.

 

[Michael]

Remember that the riots ignited because of Police shooting a guy to death last Thursday. Then there is the G20 protest last year when an officer pushed a innocent man to the ground which ended in him getting a heart attack that resulted in death. Not to mention other criticism against the police for rough handling. Thus the police being a bit softer in order not to facilitate more resentment.

It's a very delicate situation During which all eyes are on London and the police trying to exhibit their democratic powers in being able to control the population without resorting to coiersion and thus be a role model to the rest of the world.

I think this pretty much sums up a good part of why the police has not been as tough as they should have been.

 

[Centurion]

I think this pretty much sums up a good part of why the police has not been as tough as they should have been.

Yupp. In the light of the uprising in the middle east it would be an unforgettable PR disaster for the UK to employ extreme policing tactics. It would undo decades of hard work and undermine the nations reputation ahead of the Olympic games. So they rather let youths run away with a box of new airmax Nike shoes and a Kuro Pioneer Plasma than knock them over water or plastic bullets. Any ways Hundreds of looters have been arrested. There is CCTV everywhere in this city with few blind spots. You can walk into a shop and police will be able to follow you all the way home using CCTV.

 

[Gene]

I'm heading to London in two weeks, not sure if I'll cancel my trip because of the current situation! But I'll still have to be back somehow as I'll be starting school in September.

Everything is starting to return to normality again and I wouldn't worry about it, especially if you are arriving in two weeks. I returned to Ealing Broadway today after work to go to the gym (it had been closed the day prior though). I was shocked how normal everything felt and was, given it was only one night prior that Ealing Broadway got badly damaged (see the youtube video that Artist linked, that is where I live).

The police presence is more apparent now, with a number of police and police vans roaming the area. To be fair on the Met, after beefing up their numbers, they've returned the lawless streets quickly around.

As I said, in two weeks time, the riots will have been quelled and it'll be only the politics in the headlines about why and how this happened. One month from now it'll pretty much be old news.

 

[Gene]

Yupp. In the light of the uprising in the middle east it would be an unforgettable PR disaster for the UK to employ extreme policing tactics. It would undo decades of hard work and undermine the nations reputation ahead of the Olympic games. So they rather let youths run away with a box of new airmax Nike shoes and a Kuro Pioneer Plasma than knock them over water or plastic bullets. Any ways Hundreds of looters have been arrested. There is CCTV everywhere in this city with few blind spots. You can walk into a shop and police will be able to follow you all the way home using CCTV.

This is very true. From what I'm seeing on the news, the Met are now in bust mode and their making about 100 arrests a day over the last couple of days. Sure there were a few thousand people involved, but apparently they have 500 detectives working through CCTV to catch the kids. They've reportedly caught that bastard that mugged the injured guy in the video. What they need to do now is make an example of each and every one of the offenders as to act as a deterent for the future. Sure they screwed up the policing from the start, but they can still make ammends by being extra harsh on the offenders.

 

[Mr Robert]

...and as always when handling these people, the media will be all over the police for doing its job, and then for not doing it.

I wonder why it is always the same people who can't handle themselves, who can't reason?

 

[Sunny]

One guy who is probably happy about the whole thing is slimy Murdoch, took the whole hacking thing out of the headline.

 

[Gullwing]

I do believe I said something about riots in other countries in the Egypt thread.
Having the PM come out and say they might use water canons and rubber bullets is like the scene in Team America
The UN goes to North Korea and says stop your weapons program or else
NK- or else what?
UN or else we will get very angry and write you a letter telling you how angry we are.

Grow a pair and protect your city. Call in the military and use real bullets, these kids think they can do anything and you haven't convinced them otherwise.
Arrest anyone you can, and if they are over 18 prison time, under 18 prison time plus a huge fine for their dumb ass parents.

All these countries with riots have one thing in common, gun control. Do you see Switzerland having riots, nope everyone is armed and can protect themselves.
UK very strong gun control, that is why baton sales are up 42,000% earlier this week and half a dozen bats were up sever hundred to several thousand percent (and now calls to ban those).
People can't protect themselves and right now can't depend on the police to do it.
The US is having some flash riots right now, but non last more than an hour or two, and most/all are in areas with strong gun control laws.
At least I know I will be able to protect myself if anything happens near my home.