F1 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix

[450SEL6.9]

LOL, of course you don't, you see things through a red lens. But I digress, there's no point of arguing about it.

I can see your point, but don't BS please... BMW & Williams were not "allegedly" breaking the rule, they were breaking the rules. FIA data showed this blatantly. There's no allegedly.

Siko, you probably think I see things through a red lens, but I think the FIA's alleged bias towards Ferrari this year is unfounded, almost to the point of being non-existent. Contrast that with the favourable Hamilton non-rulings. I ask again - What help has the FIA specifically dished out to Ferrari this year? As of yesterday, the WCC gift argument is a lot less valid.

Ferrari, by winning the constructors title even if Mclaren was not excluded from the WCC, has shattered the argument that it was given the title by the FIA! Never mind that the punishment protected the Mclaren drivers' points and never mind the punishment was necessitated only because Mclaren was found guilty . . . twice. The statistical fact is Ferrari still won the WCC.

It's still allegedly. Even in clear-cut court cases, the accused is said to have allegedly committed the crime, until a verdict is reached. Until a final verdict is handed out for the fuel situation, it's an alleged violation and I still won't say Raikkonen won the title.

 

[bmer]

From Autosport:

Successful appeal may not help Hamilton​

Monday, October 22nd 2007, 14:14 GMT
By Jonathan Noble

A successful appeal by McLaren against the decision of the Brazilian Grand Prix race stewards not to impose a penalty against Williams and BMW for fuel irregularities may still not secure Lewis Hamilton the world championship, autosport.com has learned.

McLaren have notified the FIA of their intention to appeal against the decision not to punish BMW Sauber and Williams after their fuel was found to be cooler than the regulations allow during the Brazilian GP.

Cooler fuel provides two clear benefits for teams; it allows the fuel to enter the car quicker at pitstops and it also provides a power boost.

The stewards felt, however, that there was insufficient evidence to prove that the fuel in the car was too cold, and they were unable to say for definite what the actual ambient temperature was.

That decision left McLaren insiders baffled, especially because F1's Sporting Working Group has, according to sources, clearly laid out that fuel temperatures only matter when taken from the fuel rigs and not the cars, and the only accepted ambient temperature is that on the official Formula One Management information screens.

The SWG protocol suggests that there is a chance the stewards' decision could be overturned.

However, there is no guarantee if Williams and BMW Sauber are excluded that Hamilton will be moved up the order.

Article 168 of the International Sporting Code makes it clear that it is at the stewards' discretion whether or not cars are moved up the order in the event of other cars being excluded.

It states: "The stewards of the meeting shall declare the resulting amendment in the placings and awards, and they shall decide whether the next competitor should be moved up in the classification."

 

[siko]

Siko, you probably think I see things through a red lens, but I think the FIA's alleged bias towards Ferrari this year is unfounded, almost to the point of being non-existent. Contrast that with the favourable Hamilton non-rulings. I ask again - What help has the FIA specifically dished out to Ferrari this year? As of yesterday, the WCC gift argument is a lot less valid.

C'mon, Ferrari constantly violates rules with moving aero parts and nothing gets done. And yes other teams have them too, but only because they say that the reds get away with it.

I know there's a fine line between exploiting the rules and cheating, but Ferrari have always been pushing and many time crossing that line with very little consequences.

Ferrari, by winning the constructors title even if Mclaren was not excluded from the WCC, has shattered the argument that it was given the title by the FIA!

Never said the contrary...

Never mind that the punishment protected the Mclaren drivers' points and never mind the punishment was necessitated only because Mclaren was found guilty . . . twice.

LOL, you can't be guilty twice for the same crime?! And yes the McL got away with one... so that's one favoured ruling for McL and how many dozen for Ferrari in the past decade?

It's still allegedly. Even in clear-cut court cases, the accused is said to have allegedly committed the crime, until a verdict is reached. Until a final verdict is handed out for the fuel situation, it's an alleged violation and I still won't say Raikkonen won the title.

Oh c'mon... don't give me this legal BS. They have data that some teams cheated and they are not acting upon it, probably to avoid controversy. This is what's pissing me off.



And for the record, I'm not necessarily suggesting that Hammy should get the DC because of this. I'm merely saying that McLaren has a right to be pissed regarding this scenario, regardless of their punishment since this is a separate event..

 

[450SEL6.9]

C'mon, Ferrari constantly violates rules with moving aero parts and nothing gets done.

LOL, you can't be guilty twice for the same crime?! And yes the McL got away with one... so that's one favoured ruling for McL and how many dozen for Ferrari in the past decade?

Oh c'mon... don't give me this legal BS. They have data that some teams cheated and they are not acting upon it, probably to avoid controversy. This is what's pissing me off.

The moving aero parts were not considered illegal when they were used because they passed scrutineering. Where is the violation? It's the same as all these ex-F1 drivers are screaming about the illegality team orders and how Schumacher benefited from it all those years. Team orders were likewise not illegal during the Schumacher-Irvine-Barrichello years. Did he "violate" the rules all those years when clear-cut team order rules didn't exist?

I asked about the "help" Ferrari got this year. I admit that they may have gotten "help" in the past, but this year I don't see what favors they got.

Legal BS or not, the stewards would be expected to prove the fuel problem extremely thoroughly because their decision overturns the best title chase since '86. If you can prove it without doubt or you are so sure some teams cheated with fuel, I am sure a great many people in F1 would love to hear from you.

What would be your idea of acting upon that data? The recent precedent is that the drivers points are not taken off for fuel issues. The mother and father of all precedents separating team and driver came out of spygate. Unless the three drivers all demanded the team put that chili fuel in their tanks, isn't it the teams' error that separates itself from driver points?

 

[bmer]

From BBC Sport:

McLaren set to launch fuel appeal​

Lewis Hamilton still has a slim chance of taking the F1 title after McLaren said they would contest a decision not to punish two other teams in Brazil.


Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen won the race to edge out Hamilton, who finished seventh, for the drivers' championship.

Race stewards then investigated alleged fuel irregularities by Williams and BMW Sauber, but decided not to punish them.

Had they been disqualified, Hamilton would have finished fourth, earning him enough points to become world champion.

McLaren insist they were obliged to lodge an intent to appeal for several reasons.

"If we didn't lodge our intention to appeal we would have been criticised by F1 fans and insiders for not supporting our drivers' best interests," said Martin Whitmarsh, McLaren's chief operating officer.

He also said they were unhappy with the decision not to punish Williams or BMW Sauber.

"I want to stress our quarrel is not with Ferrari or Kimi Raikkonen, who won the race fair and square," added Whitmarsh.

"Our argument is with the race stewards in relation to Nico Rosberg, Nick Heidfeld and Robert Kubica."

McLaren notified motorsport's world governing body, the FIA, late on Sunday of their intention to appeal against the stewards' verdict.

The problems with the BMW Sauber and Williams cars centred on a technical infringement - a fuel-temperature irregularity - which could have given them an advantage.

Nico Rosberg finished fourth in his Williams while the BMW duo of Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld were fifth and sixth.

But after a three-hour hearing, the race stewards chose to impose no penalty on either team, ensuring Raikkonen could celebrate the first F1 title of his career by finishing one point ahead of Hamilton and McLaren team-mate Fernando Alonso.

"I've spoken to the Williams team and they are pretty confident that their driver, Nico Rosberg, will not be thrown out of the race any time soon," said BBC sports news correspondent Adam Parsons from Sao Paulo.

Former world champion Damon Hill has accused F1's race stewards of exercising double standards.

He feels McLaren have been on the wrong side of FIA decisions on more than one occasion this season while other teams have escaped censure.

"It does get quite difficult to see where the consistency lies," Hill told Radio 5live.

"If you go back to the beginning of the season, McLaren's argument is that Ferrari won the very first race using a device which was later found to be illegal by the FIA.

"They removed it but the result stood.

"It's very unsettling to have this appeal, but there is so much at stake and the FIA have to find somehow a way of being consistent.

"I can see how a couple of degrees fuel temperature can be regarded as being so negligible that it wouldn't make any difference.

"But we're talking about such tiny differences all the time in Formula One, there has to be a line where you're one side or the other."

Under FIA regulations, no fuel on board a car may be more than 10 degrees centigrade below ambient temperature - the prevailing temperature on the track.

But in initial findings there was a clear discrepancy.

Heidfeld's fuel was 13C lower than ambient at his first stop and 12C lower at his second.

Kubica's varied by 14C, 13C and 13C at his three stops, while Rosberg's was 13C and 12C out at his two stops.

Cooler fuel can give a car a performance advantage.

It is denser, so it can take slightly less time to refuel a car or marginally more fuel can be added in the same time.

Cooler fuel would also give a slight power advantage for about three laps before returning to the temperature out on the track.

However, the total advantage for each car over the race distance was almost certainly no more than a second.

Former F1 team owner Eddie Jordan agrees that cars do gain an unfair advantage if they use cooler fuel but thinks McLaren will find it hard to launch a successful appeal.

He says it will be difficult to prove that the fuel temperatures at the time the fuel entered the cars broke the rules.

"If you put chilled or cool fuel into a car you get between 5 and 10 horsepower increase," he told 5live.

"Now that is a significant amount and would be enough to exclude a car if it was found to have done so, but I am not sure at this late stage how you can actually get that proof."

Hamilton could only finish seventh in the final race of the season at Interlagos after a poor start, hampered by an apparent mechanical problem on lap eight when he dramatically slowed at one point, almost to a stop.

He could be seen rocking in his McLaren, virtually willing it to get going, while all the time the field streamed by.

Whatever the problem, his car finally regained power, but he was left with too much to do.

Finn Raikkonen, 28, led home team-mate Felipe Massa in a Ferrari one-two at Interlagos.

Alonso finished on the same points as Hamilton, but the double world champion from Spain was third on countback.

 

[Sunny]

The moving aero parts were not considered illegal when they were used because they passed scrutineering. Where is the violation?

So if some biased stewards ignore an illegal part during scrutineering or an incompetent one doesn't see it, it becomes legal? 450SEL, no offense, but I think the the red mist is really effecting some of your arguments.

 

[450SEL6.9]

So if some biased stewards ignore an illegal part during scrutineering or an incompetent one doesn't see it, it becomes legal? 450SEL, no offense, but I think the the red mist is really effecting some of your arguments.

First, how can you even suggest that the stewards could have been biased, ignorant or incompetent? I don't think you understand the argument and that's why you think it's pro-Ferrari bias again.

The race stewards do not make anything legal. Them allegedly ignoring or not seeing a part would not suddenly make that part legal. You suggested that by ignoring a part through bias, it might make the part legal. They scrutinize cars based on the rules on the books at the time. Anyway Sunny, I think you are talking more about the qualifications of the stewards than the actual sporting regularity of the parts involved.

This season's flexi floor was not conclusively beyond regulations at the time. Renault's mass dampening system was used in the first half of '06, but it was also not illegal until it was banned. Where is the Ferrari red mist bias? All I'm saying is, can anyone conclusively tell me that those parts were illegal at the time of use? People insist it was/is illegal, but they should prove that the part was unquestionably in violation of the regulations before bringing that point up to indicate Ferrari got a helping hand this year.

 

[Gene]

Fuel irregularities don't happen very often but in the 90s Hakkinen and Schumi were disqualified for fuel irregularities.

Yes they were disqualified, but the constructors were disqualified and the drivers points restored. Read a previous post in this thread about it, I have a link to the original source.

LOL, of course you don't, you see things through a red lens. But I digress, there's no point of arguing about it.

I can similarly say that you see things through a silver lens. But I agree, Ferrari in the past have gotten away with a lot, and yes they have cheated. I do not deny this. But this year, this season, how has Ferrari cheated? The only, thing that Ferrari could be accused of cheating of this year is the flexi-floor saga. Call this cheating or bending the rules, but it happens every year, and it affected the BMW's as well. Now does anyone want to go ahead and accuse BMW of being long time cheats? Its all part of the design process and every team bends the rules to get the advantage. Heck, even McLaren could be called into question about their flexi front wing. If anything, and if we must assign who the cheating team is this year, it is clearly McLaren. They have been proven to have cheaten in the courts.

I can see your point, but don't BS please... BMW & Williams were not "allegedly" breaking the rule, they were breaking the rules. FIA data showed this blatantly. There's no allegedly.

Straight from the mouth of the FIA, there is no substantial proof to prove that the fuel was incorrect. You and I come from Western societies, so you should know full well the saying: "Innocent until proven guilty". Its pretty much the underlying value that governs western law. If a jury, for example, cannot unanimously agree that a person is guilty, that person will be released.

Tell me siko, are you happy that McLaren are appealing this? One thing about this appeal is that it is fitting reminder to the season this year - McLaren screwing everyone including F1 fans and McLaren fans over, when the fault lies within themselves.

 

[Gene]

So if some biased stewards ignore an illegal part during scrutineering or an incompetent one doesn't see it, it becomes legal? 450SEL, no offense, but I think the the red mist is really effecting some of your arguments.

I think this is a bit unfair. BMW were equally charged with the flexi-floor saga, and they aren't exactly viewed as long-time cheats. One might say that BMW was let off because Ferrari were allowed to do it. I'm sorry, that is going into the realm of Conspiricy.

 

[Sunny]

First, how can you even suggest that the stewards could have been biased, ignorant or incompetent? I don't think you understand the argument and that's why you think it's pro-Ferrari bias again.

Are you saying it outside the realm of possibilities that the racing stewards at some F1 race can be biased or incompetent.

The race stewards do not make anything legal. Them allegedly ignoring or not seeing a part would not suddenly make that part legal. You suggested that by ignoring a part through bias, it might make the part legal.

No I was stating exactly the opposite - that by ignoring a part through bias or incompetency doesn't make it legal. (It was my counter point to your argument that cause the part passed scruteinnering, it must be legal).

This season's flexi floor was not conclusively beyond regulations at the time. Renault's mass dampening system was used in the first half of '06, but it was also not illegal until it was banned. Where is the Ferrari red mist bias? All I'm saying is, can anyone conclusively tell me that those parts were illegal at the time of use? People insist it was/is illegal, but they should prove that the part was unquestionably in violation of the regulations before bringing that point up to indicate Ferrari got a helping hand this year.

Unlike the mass damper system, which was kind of gray area in the rules book, there is no ambiguity regarding moving body parts in the rules book (as far as I know).

 

[coolraoul]

Well, i support Mclaren. I was really pissed of when they lost their points.
But here they should stop, forget this year and begin the new one (firstly, try to find a solution to fit all the equipments and big truck in their new paddock).
If they win the tiltle this way... would be a suited answer to ferrari, but honestly... not a very good victory; embarassing for Hamil I would say, to win like that.

Better not. and that, coming from a McLaren supporter.

 

[Sunny]

I think this is a bit unfair. BMW were equally charged with the flexi-floor saga, and they aren't exactly viewed as long-time cheats. One might say that BMW was let off because Ferrari were allowed to do it. I'm sorry, that is going into the realm of Conspiricy.

They should have been punished too. This is exactly the larger problem with FIA. It has been so inconsistent in enforcing it's own rule book, than any one can look at their actions and see bias and preference towards any team.

 

[siko]

I think this is a bit unfair. BMW were equally charged with the flexi-floor saga, and they aren't exactly viewed as long-time cheats. One might say that BMW was let off because Ferrari were allowed to do it. I'm sorry, that is going into the realm of Conspiricy.

Well considering BMW used it after Ferrari (they used it late last season)... which could strongly suggest BMW used it because they saw Ferrari getting away with it.

I can similarly say that you see things through a silver lens.

Hell no... I've never really been a McL fan. Used to always be a Williams fans until BMW-Sauber came to be. But I admit I despise Ferrari (since I'm kid), so perhaps an anti-red lens .

But I agree, Ferrari in the past have gotten away with a lot, and yes they have cheated. I do not deny this. But this year, this season, how has Ferrari cheated? The only, thing that Ferrari could be accused of cheating of this year is the flexi-floor saga. Call this cheating or bending the rules, but it happens every year, and it affected the BMW's as well. Now does anyone want to go ahead and accuse BMW of being long time cheats? Its all part of the design process and every team bends the rules to get the advantage. Heck, even McLaren could be called into question about their flexi front wing.

It's just funny that every year, there is one consistent name that seem to bend the rules a little too much.

Straight from the mouth of the FIA, there is no substantial proof to prove that the fuel was incorrect.

If that's the case then fine... initial reports said that the FIA had cold hard data to prove otherwise.

Tell me siko, are you happy that McLaren are appealing this?

I'm indifferent to the fact... and I understand why they are doing it, since the FIA (as always) are inconsistent with the way they apply the rules.

One thing about this appeal is that it is fitting reminder to the season this year - McLaren screwing everyone including F1 fans and McLaren fans over, when the fault lies within themselves.

I don't seen how they are "screwing everyone"... how, because they are appealing or because they cheated?

 

[RikfromBelgium]

I believe people should just shut up about the FIA being biased because it's bloody obvious when it comes to teams close to the heart, everybody here has some biased thoughts.

 

[coolraoul]

Well, Mc should shut up and let this season get his end!!! This is enough scandal and appeals and all that stuff, will it have an end? Will thsi season be over one day?

This appeal is stupid, it is against the sport, they lost they lost. period. It put them to a shame that they want to win even if they lost...It is almost a Ferrari-like behaviour I would say .

Seriously, it is too much.
I've read an article sayinf these captors were really unreliable... And who cares? it would not be a good victory, will keep in the history books as "yes they won, but cheated, and appealed, and all that stuff... Ferrari won the constructors on the green carpet, and so did Mc with the driver's title"... Not good.

Whereas here... the constructor's title, well, almost nobody cares (only the teams), and the driver's title, well, pretty fair victory. Mc decided not to be united for victory, here is the result.

So enough. Mc lost everything this season, that's it, black season for Mc. Concentrate on the next now, prepare it to win, and stop crying now.

Remember that I am for McLaren...But too much is too much.

 

[siko]

I believe people should just shut up about the FIA being biased because it's bloody obvious when it comes to teams close to the heart, everybody here has some biased thoughts.

Please don't tell me to shup up.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

haha, yeah why not, take it personally and ignore the message. I did not tell you to shut up, I just want the fia favoring ferrari crap to stop and have Mclaren fanboys let it rest and have the balls to say they were wrong, ferrari didn't do anything wrong and that if Mclaren is complaining about this then their drivers should have their points taken too, Hamiltion for instance on 3 occasions. now grow up sorry, it's a sport you have winners and losers and the team with the biggest losermentality has been Mclaren and there is nothing FIA or ferrari can do about that. Some other fans can, why can't you.

 

[Gene]

They should have been punished too. This is exactly the larger problem with FIA. It has been so inconsistent in enforcing it's own rule book, than any one can look at their actions and see bias and preference towards any team.

Fair point. Everyone is biased in some way or another. Everyone see things however best suits them.

It's just funny that every year, there is one consistent name that seem to bend the rules a little too much.

Perhaps, I do not deny this at all. But in this circumstance I'm talking about this season. Ferrari did not out-right cheat once this season as far as I can tell.

I don't seen how they are "screwing everyone"... how, because they are appealing or because they cheated?

Its really a combination of the two. Firstly because they are appealing: when the race is over, we know who the winner is. Thats done and dusted and you move on with life. But the way McLaren want to win it, is in the courts? Tell me, is that really true to the sport of motor racing? And what about the fans? Truth is, is that McLaren had the title signed, sealed and delivered in the second to last race of the season, and they simply didn't capitalise on it. They screwed up, they should accept it, learn from their mistakes for next season. We as the fans, don't want the title to be decided in courts where we can't see it. Heck even Hamilton doesn't.

The next reason is because of cheating. The season will be characterized by the spy saga, and conflicts within the McLaren team. It won't be characterized by the racing as it should be, and we all know McLaren's role in that.

In the end I accept everyone's opinions, and accept they won't match my opinions. Its interesting to see what other people think, even though I may disagree with you.

Oh and contrary to popular believe I don't actually like Ferrari. BMW Sauber is my team. Then probably Super Aguri, because they are the little team that do amazing things.

 

[450SEL6.9]

Sunny, of course it is not impossible that stewards are incompetent or biased. I'd like to see professional stewards, like Luca di Montezemolo said. However, I don't see how the bias or incompetence possibility relates to the question/furor over flexi-floors, unless you are sure that some steward really screwed up the inspection after the Aussie GP.

No I was stating exactly the opposite - that by ignoring a part through bias or incompetency doesn't make it legal. (It was my counter point to your argument that cause the part passed scruteinnering, it must be legal).

If a car passes scrutineering, one reasonable assumption is that it is legal according to the rules and regulations in place at the time of the race. I think the integrity of all race results is based on that assumption. If it passed scrutineers meeting, one possibility and the most likely possibility is that the car is legal! It doesn't mean the car is 100% legal 100% of the time, but ask a neutral GCF member who does not follow F1 about it

In your mind, Sunny, passing scrutineering still might not make a car legal because the possibility exists that a steward might be incompetent or biased. Fine, but you have to prove that! Unless someone has proof that the scrutineering procedure was actually biased or incompetent, you're really opening up a can of worms about whether a car is legal.

 

[450SEL6.9]

I just want the fia favoring ferrari crap to stop.

All I want is for people saying Ferrari were given FIA gifts this year to justify their claim and explain exactly what these "gifts" were. Now that Ferrari won the WCC, even if Mclaren was not DQed, what were they given?

I criticized Ferrari a lot this year and still would rather have Alonso than Raikkonen as driver. Contrary to popular belief, I am not always defending Ferrari. I have long said Schu lost himself an 8th title in '06.