Which company invests the least money in autonomous driving technics?


Mick Briesgau

Tire Trailblazer
Does any of you guys know which German company (Audi/BMW/Mercedes) invests the least, or hardly any at all, money in autonomous driving? @Busty @EnI @Wolfgang or anyone?
I guess it won't be Mercedes-Benz or Audi, so it must be BMW. Or am I hugely mistaking? I'd be thankful for answers and explain later why I'm asking this question.
 
That is indeed difficult to say for different reasons. One very critical factor is organization size and structure. Mercedes has passenger cars and trucks etc., Audi is a Volkswagen appendix if you want, BMW is the smallest player in that circle, at least at first sight. Another problematic aspect when examining your topic is the efforts of suppliers that carry huge amounts of developmental load in that field. Third, educational institutions are involved. And fourth, different aspects of 'development' have to be taken into account. Basic research is probably most extensively conducted by BMW (even in absolute numbers) or VW whereas series production related research seems to be a strength of Daimler.
And that is just a very quick and dirty view on the matter ...
 
The suppliers, of course. Isn't it so @Busty, that they often develop hand in hand with and are sponsored by car companies? So in that case money from the car company is transferred to the suppliers like Bosch etc. In a decade or so time, it'll probably be so, that a car company is buying the complete autonomous driving technics as a package, without having spend an hour/dollar/euro in it's development.
 
Does any of you guys know which German company (Audi/BMW/Mercedes) invests the least, or hardly any at all, money in autonomous driving? @Busty @EnI @Wolfgang or anyone?
I guess it won't be Mercedes-Benz or Audi, so it must be BMW. Or am I hugely mistaking? I'd be thankful for answers and explain later why I'm asking this question.

I doubt there's any real way to tell, I think it's unlikely there are any true apples to apples comparisons available.

My two cents on the matter... both BMW Group and Daimler AG talk about the same things... BMW call it ACES, Daimler calls it CASE.... the A in both stands for Autonomy. It's CASE and ACES that they are spending there R & D money on... so that might be a place to start.

Based on 2016 figures
BMW Group employ 13,100 people in R & D, and last year spent €5.2bn on R & D
Daimler employ 24,200 in that area and spent €7.6bn... however, only 16,300 and €5.7bn of those/that goes to Mercedes Cars.

These figures are fairly comparable, and it's reasonable to imagine that they've both allocated a similar amount of money to each of their ACES/CASE plans... so in R & D terms I don't think there's much in it - though Daimler is bigger, so it's reasonable to assume they have more to spend overall.

In terms of actual investment, there are plenty of subsidiary companies, partnerships, participations and joint ventures that get listed in the financial reports, but beyond company names, these don't tell much - there are pages and pages of them for both BMW and Daimler and to be honest I don't understand BMW 236 page report, or Daimlers 321 page report, or even VW's 422 page report, well enough to pull the relevant info out...

On the subject of VW...

As far as Audi goes... VW's I think spent €13+ bn on R & D, though how they are spending that in light of Dieselgate, who knows! I'd guess they were spending more on EV tech given promises they've made since Dieselgate.

Just my two cents.
 
Your figures @Matski support my guess MB is investing most in it, BMW being a good second in place. Whereas MB is probably thinking they should invest alot in autonomous drive because they think this technic enlarges safety on the road (core brand business). I have a feeling BMW is going along because they think they have to, because market dictates it. Personally I don't think it suits typical BMW brand awareness.
VW/Audi have indeed other challenges and problems to take care of at the moment, but still have much cash.
 
Whereas MB is probably thinking they should invest alot in autonomous drive because they think this technic enlarges safety on the road (core brand business). I have a feeling BMW is going along because they think they have to, because market dictates it. Personally I don't think it suits typical BMW brand awareness.

It might be a better fit with traditional brand image for Mercedes, but I firmly believe both companies are doing it for the same reason, to make sure they are still relevant in 10 years time, in 20 years time, and in another 100 years time. The automotive landscape will change... adapt or die.

I found BMW's Next 100 event quite reassuring... maybe not for the styling direction :D but in terms of how they see themselves adapting in future. I have no idea about Mercedes' plans and ideas because I don't read their PR's as much to be honest.
 
Your figures @Matski support my guess MB is investing most in it, BMW being a good second in place. Whereas MB is probably thinking they should invest alot in autonomous drive because they think this technic enlarges safety on the road (core brand business). I have a feeling BMW is going along because they think they have to, because market dictates it. Personally I don't think it suits typical BMW brand awareness.
VW/Audi have indeed other challenges and problems to take care of at the moment, but still have much cash.
It looks like MB will share the faith of VW soon, so the money could be realocated
 
The more I think about it, the more I feel like a dinosaurus. Because I really dislike this autonomous driving technology so much, that I'm truly considering stop buying cars of companies who invest hugh amounts in this technology. I don't want to 'sponsor' them any longer. I know and realize how minuscule my donation is, but I just don't want to support them any longer. I do realize as well it's the future and I can't stop it. I'm also probably one of few who dislikes the autonomous-drive -direction car industry is going.

If I knew for a fact, BMW would spend much less money in autonomous driving technology than Mercedes-Benz, I'd buy BMW. Or vice versa. One could buy Dacia of course, but that's too much asked.

Well, must face it, I'm an extincting species of car afficionados.
 
The more I think about it, the more I feel like a dinosaurus. Because I really dislike this autonomous driving technology so much, that I'm truly considering stop buying cars of companies who invest hugh amounts in this technology. I don't want to 'sponsor' them any longer. I know and realize how minuscule my donation is, but I just don't want to support them any longer. I do realize as well it's the future and I can't stop it. I'm also probably one of few who dislikes the autonomous-drive -direction car industry is going.

If I knew for a fact, BMW would spend much less money in autonomous driving technology than Mercedes-Benz, I'd buy BMW. Or vice versa. One could buy Dacia of course, but that's too much asked.

Well, must face it, I'm an extincting species of car afficionados.
Just imagine: you rob a bank and the car instead of escaping is driving you directly to the police station
 
@Mick Briesgau I understand your reservations and also feel like a dinosaur at times. What bothers me most is not automation (even though I don't dig it either) but the fact that marketing 'hijacks' the hardware product more and more. In my perception, the image being conveyed and sold has become more important than the authenticity and craftsmanship of the product itself.
 
Thank you for the interesting thread, Mick Briesgau. :)

At Daimler the basic research was completed around 1995, but then was not offered in series production at the time. This info page on Robot Car history, describes the decisions thusly:

"Somewhat surprisingly, however, many representatives of leading car companies such as BMW and DaimlerChrysler (the company with the world's largest private research budget: $6.7 billion as of 2005) are not all too enthusiastic about self-driving vehicles. Why not? Because they feel that completely autonomous cars do not necessarily fit the self-image of their customer base. Hence their present research focuses on more modest topics such as driver assistance." ROBOT CARS - autonomous vehicles - history of self-driving cars - best robot car

At present the optional DrivePilot was renamed to the optional Active Assist.
 
Does any of you guys know which German company (Audi/BMW/Mercedes) invests the least, or hardly any at all, money in autonomous driving? @Busty @EnI @Wolfgang or anyone?
I guess it won't be Mercedes-Benz or Audi, so it must be BMW. Or am I hugely mistaking? I'd be thankful for answers and explain later why I'm asking this question.


The R&D for AD is quite complex. Not very linear at all. And not done alone by carmakers themselves.

So it's hard to specify how much of the total R&D money goes exactly to AD R&D. All the public data just show total R&D figure per year or period. But that includes all the R&D areas: new cars, new powertrain & drivetrain tech, new infotainment systems, new safety systems etc etc.

Also, as said by others, suppliers are very much included in that equation - spending their own R&D money on AD, while collaborating closely with carmakers.

Eg. MB, BMW & Audi bought Nokia's mapping company HERE - which is essential to AD.
Also eg. BMW is being very vocal about collaboration with IBM & Mobileye (which was acquired by IBM in the meantime) & recently Delphi have joined the team.
Also in April Daimler & Bosch announced the collaboration on developing AD tech.
While Audi have been very much tied with NVIDIA when it comes to AD development.

All three companies have a goal to commercially offer fully automated vehicles in 2020/21.

So I guess they (together with their partners) spend very similar R&D on the AD tech. Perhaps Daimler is a bit more eager to spend more due to very techy-driven commercial vehicles division. Since commercial use of AD is much more promising than personal use of the tech. Self-driving trucks, buses, cargo vans, even taxies ... that's the future. And Daimler's commercial vehicle division is quite a big player (at least in Europe), and so is MB's involvement in taxi business (which will morph into car sharing / ride sharing / mobility services business in the foreseeable future). Same could be said about VW - although they are much more interested in clean drivetrain lately (also due to Dieselgate): mass-volume EVs being their first priority right now.

AD is coming. No doubt about that. Everybody will be there. Sooner or later (later meaning lagging behind 1-3 years). Sure the AD feature will be optional initially. Or standard on some specific vehicles only. Also there will be differentiation regarding levels: some models will come with fully Level 5 AD, some only with Level 3 AD etc. It depends on marketing - to whom do certain models sale to.
Also, some brands / models will offer "mobility units" - very passenger oriented vehicles, where driving & driver involvement will be secondary - so will be the provisional cockpit.

But mind AD - to work well - needs lots of high-performance chips & PUs, much more capable on-board electronic network (to power all that stuff), lots of very precise multi-sensors, superb software (incl. very capable AI machine-learning feature), precise & reliable mapping (incl satellite positioning) , supporting traffic info, intelligent traffic signalization, and most importantly: super speedy mobile internet connection. So, everybody has it share in the development ... incl. telecommunication companies, satellite positioning providers, traffic control operators, states & municipalities (when it comes to installation of intelligent traffic signalization & other traffic management & control systems etc).

So, I wouldn't be worried about any of the biggest three German carmakers when it comes to AD.

But don't rule out US carmakers. They are becoming very formidable players when it comes to AD - being backed & supported by superb US IT industry. They all (in many variations & combinations) collaborate with IT giants like Google / Waymo, Apple, Uber, Lyft etc. Not to mention tons of great start-ups there, and most importantly: the knowledge, skills, know-how in CS field.

And then there's China ... collecting know-how & knowledge from others (also by educating their CS engineers abroad); collaborating with foreign car industry (eg. Baidu & Continental have just announced an AD collaboration); state supporting the tech development with incentive programs etc.

Not sure what's going on with French, Korean & Japanese carmakers (Fiat - as part of FCA is benefiting from US IT). How far are they with AD.

But I'm sure that in 10 years will see quite some fully AD vehicles on the roads. At least in some areas where traffic infrastructure & legislation will allow that. And again: at least Level 5 is much more suitable for commercial than personal use. Mass personal usage will require quite some infrastructure investments & more importantly - a change in mindset. Which usually requires a generation change. New mobility paradigm for a new generation.
 
The more I think about it, the more I feel like a dinosaurus. Because I really dislike this autonomous driving technology so much, that I'm truly considering stop buying cars of companies who invest hugh amounts in this technology. I don't want to 'sponsor' them any longer. I know and realize how minuscule my donation is, but I just don't want to support them any longer. I do realize as well it's the future and I can't stop it. I'm also probably one of few who dislikes the autonomous-drive -direction car industry is going.

If I knew for a fact, BMW would spend much less money in autonomous driving technology than Mercedes-Benz, I'd buy BMW. Or vice versa. One could buy Dacia of course, but that's too much asked.

Well, must face it, I'm an extincting species of car afficionados.
I feel exactly the same as you about this technology I feel like ancient and maybe not adapting to the fast pace in change in technology in cars. I personally don't want my car to drive itself as I really enjoy driving whether it's a long 10 Hr cross country drive or city pace crawl. I also feel like I won't have trust or faith in these autonomous systems as I feel I want to be in total control of my driving experience in my car. Imagine how boring it would be sitting in your car and been tossed from side to side on a race track while your autonomous system drives the car around in the quickest time possible without having to engage in the experience and feel of the controls which will certainly put a big smile on your face.
 
Because they feel that completely autonomous cars do not necessarily fit the self-image of their customer base.
True and insightful words, Wolfgang. I have a feeling in this case (AD) the likes of Mercedes-Benz and BMW are researching and developing beyond the needs and wants of their customers.
 
@Mick Briesgau I understand your reservations and also feel like a dinosaur at times. What bothers me most is not automation (even though I don't dig it either) but the fact that marketing 'hijacks' the hardware product more and more. In my perception, the image being conveyed and sold has become more important than the authenticity and craftsmanship of the product itself.
Yes, i see what you mean. That's even quite bitter, realising these companies are in fact nothing without their engineers. They are the ones to receive praise, they are the ones who should talk about the product.
 

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