What should Daimler do with Maybach?

[ateekt]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Maybach is an awesome car but can never get near "Rolls Royce" ...!

 

[Centurion]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Thanks for this Marcus


This SUV sounds horrifying. I wonder if BMW will jump on this with a limited production Rolls-Royce version of the X5 hmmmmm ...I think not.

^^
ROLF!! Or an Arnage version VW Touerg. I agree with you the idea is totally ridiculuos. Jumping on the SUV trend is some what a desperate action manufacturers do these days iin hope to increase their sales.. I pray to God that we won't see some hideous SUV creation from MB.
Although the Maybach sales are dropping faster than the value of Enron shares dropped in 2003 don't expect MB to can the Maybach brand anytime soon. BMW has RR and Audi has Bentley, there is simply no way that MB will let them rule the world of exquisite luxury cars all alone.

Personally I don't think there is no idea for MB to create an ultra luxurious MM car to compete with the Phantom are the Arnage. They are simply too well established car models and are almost unbeatable. The best products for the brand would be totally unique ones like a gigantic four door coupe, 4 door cab or maybe even a four door SUV coupe with a presidental feeling like the G-wagon. They simply need to re-define the brand like BMW has done with RR.

 

[Pagani]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAR Magazine
At the same time, Mercedes is moving further upscale with premium products like the S65 AMG and the proposed four-seater CL cabriolet. Considering these implications, Maybach’s best bet is a stylish and powerful four-door, four-seater coupé - kind of a bigger CLS for the very rich.’

This is what I have been praying Maybach bring for quite some time now. It will be the ultimate four door. The proposed diret injection v12 with 600hp and 740tq sounds out of this world. Now I am confused a bit though: is this CLS-ish Maybach the cheaper version they are talking about, or it is part of the ultra lux, ultra expensive ones?

All in all, they have realized that the bland styling is to blame, and apparently they have a solution in mind. This hopefully means a shorter than planned lifecycle for the current generation of cars (10 years originally).

 

[zetableh]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I think that Maybach just needs brand identity. That's the problem; it looks like a tarted up S-Class. Give it some uniqueness, and I think that'll solve a few problems.

IDENTITY!

 

[Osnabrueck]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Great thread everybody. The Maybach debacle and the branding puzzle it presents is one of my favorite water cooler topics.

Things might look bleak right now Marcus ...but that could change quite quickly if DCX are clever. I think Bentley's Flying Spur is what they should really be targeting -- this is the real big money market. It might be cheaper than the MM57/62 but it is no less prestigious actually.

Here's the thing Rob, Mercedes already targets the Flying Spur through models like the S600 and the S63. These are cars that are so well appointed, so impeccably crafted that they leave almost nothing to be desired. You could rightly argue that the only thing lacking is the presence of a rarified logo on the hood.

So Mercedes is in a quandry if they want to move "upmarket" with a low-volume, high-profit prestige label - because they already dance that number. What exactly will they move upmarket with since the creme de la creme is already available under the Mercedes badge?

The answer is nothing. By all measures, the S600 renders the Maybach redundent. Sure the Maybach can be ordered with elephant dick leather, but you also have Mercedes Designo satisfying all but the most grotesque of tastes.

At the heart of the matter is this: People who buy super saloons aren't buying superior engineering or superlative dynamics, they're buying a mythical pedigree. Sure, brands like Bentley and Rolls Royce have a rocky past, and have changed hands numerous times, but the brand has remained consistent enough for us to imagine that when we buy a Rolls or a Bentley we're buying a car that's part of noble tradition. We feel that we have a link with the Queen of England and the Prince Charles. We feel like we're part of something pretty goddamn special, because we're part of an ultra-exclusive club that spans back 100 years.

Maybach may have been a name at one time, but up until recently was only known by dead people and car collectors. Now, perhaps this could be partially excused were it not for the fact that the product had so much in common with existing Mercedes vehicles.

McLaren Mercedes is a partnership that makes sense because there's a tangible sense of something different being brought to the table. The SLR is ovbiously like no other Mercedes and is able to follow through on the promise of being significantly different than the rest of the Mercedes range.

Maybach, unfortunately, isn't a real entity. It's just a name and a fasion concept.

The way I see it - Maybach could become a profitable enterprise by becoming a "halo stylist" inside of Mercedes, just like AMG is a "performance stylist."

What Mercedes would do is maintain the Maybach range with a new super-saloon every 7 years or so. Sure, they cars wouldn't sell, but they'd create a halo of credibility around the Maybach name.

We'd soon have cars like the "Maybach S-Klasse" the "Maybach GL" and the "Maybach CL." Such cars would have all sorts of custom BS available to them, giving you an outlandish choice of paints, fabrics and materials at your disposal.

So while the Maybach 57/62 may languish in the shadow of soft sales and lonely showrooms, Mercedes could cash in on the back end by pimping out the name to those who are willing and able to shell out the cash for a different logo on the hood.

The Mercedes CL is already a very expensive car, running into six figures. Since you're already going for the gusto, why not add another $35k to the price and have something really exclusive.

Ok ok - I realize that the scenario that I just outlined above is retarded, but it could also make money. I don't know if that's worth diluting the Mercedes name with an in-house "bling tuner" but like... whatever. I'm almost sorry I wrote all this...

Unless Mercedes can somehow pull equity out of the Maybach name it has little reason to exist. I say give it the axe.

 

[SCOTT27]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

The problem regarding both Smart and Maybach is that they are totally under and over communicated to their target audiences. Maybach have gone for the corporate excess look finally climaxing in Ghetto fabulous in which I know has turned off prospective buyers in Germany and Switzerland - These are traditionalists - people who have wealth and status but don't want to blemish their status.

BMW do not like the Maybach because the brand is iconic in Germany considering it's past and that the 57 or 62 does nothing to celebrate or communicate that history or tradition. One Rolls-Royce manager thinks it looks like an enlarged Hyundai. I know one thing that the 62 is expensive to manufacturer - Apparently they have to stop production so that bodyshells can be trucked to the plant that builds Mercedes-Benzes Buses so it can be dipped in a special tank as the tanks at the Maybach production line are not big enough for the 62 apparently...

But Mercedes-Benz are at that point where BMW was- It's plans of having a mass marketed brand now in tatters and shareholders demanding blood and action immediately before everything goes to the wall that dark cloud that visted Munich that fateful day in february 2000 is fast approaching Stuttgart and then that ultimatum that changed BMW " Do you like your Job?" will be asked in the same way.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I think a Maybach should be designed from the ground up and shouldn't have anything in common with Mercedes besides engine and drivetrains and such...other than that the Design should be 100% original.

 

[mercmad]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I would just put the Maybach Exelero in to prduction and sit back and watch sales come in... Then again I wish life could be that easy

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Here's the thing Rob, Mercedes already targets the Flying Spur through models like the S600 and the S63. These are cars that are so well appointed, so impeccably crafted that they leave almost nothing to be desired. You could rightly argue that the only thing lacking is the presence of a rarified logo on the hood.

You are of course correct Osnabrueck ...but the ODC has already shown us there is potential beyond the S class -- a vehicle which sits between the S class and the MM57/62. It is correct the S600/S65 is technically competing with the Flying Spur ....but (as you point out) this is a market segment governed by perceptions of exclusivity as much as by technical excellence. Sharing so much with cheaper variants under the S class badge, these exclusive Mercs are compromised. The Bentleys do not have this problem because they only offer models which compete at the most exclusive end of the S class tree.

So Mercedes is in a quandry if they want to move "upmarket" with a low-volume, high-profit prestige label - because they already dance that number. What exactly will they move upmarket with since the creme de la creme is already available under the Mercedes badge?

Yes, this does pose a problem ....but I still think a model like the OCD offers a point of difference which doesn't clash with, or compromise, the S class image.

The answer is nothing. By all measures, the S600 renders the Maybach redundent. Sure the Maybach can be ordered with elephant dick leather, but you also have Mercedes Designo satisfying all but the most grotesque of tastes.

Designo does offer a lot ...but the Designo interiors still do not have much of a feeling of substance about them -- they are very comfortable and very well made ...but suffer from an almost complete lack character or emotion. The ODC has the potential to offer a more aesthetically rich experince to give those Bentleys a run for their money.

At the heart of the matter is this: People who buy super saloons aren't buying superior engineering or superlative dynamics, they're buying a mythical pedigree. Sure, brands like Bentley and Rolls Royce have a rocky past, and have changed hands numerous times, but the brand has remained consistent enough for us to imagine that when we buy a Rolls or a Bentley we're buying a car that's part of noble tradition. We feel that we have a link with the Queen of England and the Prince Charles. We feel like we're part of something pretty goddamn special, because we're part of an ultra-exclusive club that spans back 100 years.

I absolutely agree with you -- we have discussed this before. It is almost entirely about perceptions.

We'd soon have cars like the "Maybach S-Klasse" the "Maybach GL" and the "Maybach CL." Such cars would have all sorts of custom BS available to them, giving you an outlandish choice of paints, fabrics and materials at your disposal.
.

I don't know about this Osna, isn't this what Designo is supposed to do already?

As far as Maybach variants of Mercedes existing vehicles is concerned (as DCX are planing to do with a Maybach version of the GL), I think this is a potentially damaging thing to do. I mean, can you imagine Rolls-Royce variants of BMW 5ers and 7ers?. It might have worked for Toyota with the Lexus brand -- but Mercedes is a completely different story because it is already a prestige brand. The MM57/62 doesn't displace the S class' pedigree but MM versions of existing Mercedes models just seem like cynical attempts to exploit a brand name (Maybach) which has had so much money and marketing thrown at it to give it some credibility in the world of ultra-luxury products. I think it could be damaging to Mercedes-Benz -- DCX need to handle this extremely carefully.

 

[Osnabrueck]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I don't know about this Osna, isn't [customization] what Designo is supposed to do already?

As far as Maybach variants of Mercedes existing vehicles is concerned, I think this would be a very damaging thing for Maybach to do. It might have worked for Toyota with the Lexus brand -- but Mercedes is a completely different story because it is already a prestige brand. The MM57/62 doesn't displace the S class' pedigree but MM versions of the Mercedes model range would do nothing but damage the whole image of Mercedes-Benz itself -- DCX need to handle this extremely carefully.

Rob - as always, thanks for your thoughtful response.

The distinguishing difference between Designo and Maybach is the cache associated between the two names.

Designo is just a word that organizes a group of services Mercedes offers to buyers with something special in mind (and something special on their account balance). Maybach, on the other hand is a "superlative luxury brand." If you bought a "Mercedes by Maybach" you're buying into a status symbol that sits above the normal Mercedes fare - sorta like a Brabus. A designo Benz, on the other hand, is just a normal Benz wearing a stylish suit.

If Maybach was implemented as a "haus of custom" within Mercedes, they would offer all the good rootin' tootin' styles that are afforded to buyers of ultra-premium cars - stuff like condor-feather padding and inlays made from extinct trees and lost Shakespre manuscripts.

Anyways, I think the idea I've outlined is terrible, and Mercedes would probably just confuse the hell out of us witless consumers with offerings that make no sense.

You're right about the Ocean Drive Rob. It's got that special sauce. It's also better off being in the Mercedes family, because so much depends upon our perceptions of the brand. An Ocean Drive with a star on its hood means more sales of A and C-Klasse vehicles - where it counts. A Ocean Drive Maybach, on the other hand, would likely be red ink and a possible negative for Mercedes brand equity.

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

It's [Ocean Drive Concept] also better off being in the Mercedes family, because so much depends upon our perceptions of the brand. An Ocean Drive with a star on its hood means more sales of A and C-Klasse vehicles - where it counts. A Ocean Drive Maybach, on the other hand, would likely be red ink and a possible negative for Mercedes brand equity.

That is a very good point ....but where does this leave Maybach. The problem is, the Maybach 'brand' has had so much money thrown at it, DCX have created an ultra-luxury brand image so it's only natural they will want to use it ...but how does it add value to Mercedes-Benz. They really have got themselves into a bit of a mess I think.

Having said that about Maybach, I guess it could also be asked, what value does Rolls-Royce add to BMW?

BTW, thanks for the compliment Josh, I really appreciate that coming from you ...as I thoroughly respect your opinions

 

[Osnabrueck]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Having said that about Maybach, I guess it could also be asked, what value does Rolls-Royce add to BMW?

Short answer Rob: Rolls Royce doesn't need to add value to BMW, except when it comes to the bottom line. So long as Rolls Royce is in the black, it's a wonderful brand to have as part of the BMW portfolio.

Long answer [in account exec talk]- The experience and capabilities of BMW coupled with the prestige and heritage of the Rolls Royce brand create some very natural opportunities to leverage existing assets into areas of enhanced profitability and interoperability. BMW and Rolls Royce can synergize their existing knowledge base to create vehicles that are more compelling, more capable and more profitable than ever before.

At the end of the day, BMW has zero need to align their brand with Rolls Royce. Zip, zilch, zero. In fact, both brands have everything to lose by letting one brand contaminate the other.

From my vantage point, the best move DC can do with Maybach is the same that was done with Smart's extened product range. Count your losses and pull the plug. Trying to leverage the cache of Maybach onto a cache-rich brand like Mercedes is sending mixed signals and is a road to nowhere - fast.

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Excellent points. Why do you think DCX was not able to achieve a similar thing with Maybach? ...I assume everyone would agree there is nothing wrong with Maybach the brand -- it has a very strong image in its intended market. Do you think things could work for Maybach with a redesigned 57/62?

If the S600/S65/ODC really are enough to take on the 'cheaper' Bentleys under the Mercedes name, do you think it is at all viable to keep the Maybach badge (on a redesigned flagship model) to take on the RR Phantom? ...or should the entire Maybach operation be scrapped?

Maybach, unfortunately, isn't a real entity. It's just a name and a fashion concept.

There is truth in this ...but I wonder is the Rolls-Royce brand much more?

BMW's Rolls-Royce operation is also entirely an illusion -- it has no real connection at all with the past (unlike Bentley which is still produced at the old factory in Crewe, South Cheshire). The Phantom is really only assembled in England.

I believe the success of the Rolls-Royce Phantom can be put down to the highly attuned design culture at BMW. Eni and I have been discussing the design culture at BMW in THIS thread -- I honestly think it is this design integrity at BMW that has greatly contributed to the success of Rolls-Royce (and Mini). The Phantom may only be connected (in real terms) to Rolls-Royces of the past in name only ...but it was conceived with an acute understanding of the values and culture of the Rolls-Royce marque. The whole vehicle (every aspect of it, both actual/mechanical and abstract/sensory) was carried out with a thorough awareness of intentions and a united vision of the aesthetics required to pull it off. In my opinion, this is what gives the Phantom a much higher level of authenticity than the Maybach.

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

The problem regarding both Smart and Maybach is that they are totally under and over communicated to their target audiences. Maybach have gone for the corporate excess look finally climaxing in Ghetto fabulous in which I know has turned off prospective buyers in Germany and Switzerland - These are traditionalists - people who have wealth and status but don't want to blemish their status.

BMW do not like the Maybach because the brand is iconic in Germany considering it's past and that the 57 or 62 does nothing to celebrate or communicate that history or tradition. One Rolls-Royce manager thinks it looks like an enlarged Hyundai. I know one thing that the 62 is expensive to manufacturer - Apparently they have to stop production so that bodyshells can be trucked to the plant that builds Mercedes-Benzes Buses so it can be dipped in a special tank as the tanks at the Maybach production line are not big enough for the 62 apparently...

But Mercedes-Benz are at that point where BMW was- It's plans of having a mass marketed brand now in tatters and shareholders demanding blood and action immediately before everything goes to the wall that dark cloud that visted Munich that fateful day in february 2000 is fast approaching Stuttgart and then that ultimatum that changed BMW " Do you like your Job?" will be asked in the same way.

Some interesting poinst here SCOTT27.

I agree with you that the Maybach 57/62 might just be a little too showy for many people. This is where Bentley's Flying Spur has been so successful -- it carries a prestigious image but it doesn't quite overstep that invisible line where high-luxury gives way to ostentation and excess. The Phantom, for some inexplicable reason, works. The Maybach 57/62 is undoubtedly a magnificent car ...but beyond being a symbol of wealth and privilege, it fails to inspire much passion.

 

[Merc1]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I have to say I feel like I've been to a history and marketing class. Scott and Rob, those were some of the most brilliant posts I've ever read on this site. Outstanding, I'm at a loss to add anything....you guys have said it all! A very stimulating give and take session.

M

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

Ah great, thanks Marcus.

But can I please make it clear that any thoughts I have on these matters have been triggered and thoroughly stimulated by the hours of discussions I have had with you and other GCF members. Most often I am processing my opinions as I am typing them ...so they can be a little bit uncoordinated at times.

 

[Merc1]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

I find myself altering and tweaking what I'm going to say while typing also, but it seems I have my best thoughts mid-post or so, so I fully understand that.

I wonder if anyone at DCX ever reads these boards. They're creativity could be sparked by something we've said, something we didn't know we hinted at or stated.

M

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

[the Phantom] was conceived with an acute understanding of the values and culture of the Rolls-Royce marque. The whole vehicle (every aspect of it, both actual/mechanical and abstract/sensory) was carried out with a thorough awareness of intentions and a united vision of the aesthetics required to pull it off. In my opinion, this is what gives the Phantom a much higher level of authenticity than the Maybach.

I guess it must be remembered that BMW did have an established brand with a strong heritage and culture to work with -- Maybach had to be [re]invented from the ground up -- DCX had to build a corporate culture and brand identity around the car ...which was made doubly difficult because it was originally supposed to come under the Mercedes moniker.

It has been said before, but I really feel DCX missed their opportunity with creating the brand identity for Maybach -- it really should have stood for something far more than just a 'better Mercedes' -- this does nothing for Mercedes-Benz and doesn't give Maybach a particularly distinctive image either. I guess this is why Maybach is always being explained as "Mercedes' answer to Rolls-Royce" -- in other words a 'wanna be' or 'me too' car.

In my opinion, Maybach should have established itself as something entirely unique -- not just a typical, predictable, luxury barge, but something incomparable and much more inspiring. Maybach still has the potential to be an extremely exciting marque.

DCX were so fixated with creating an aura of prestige around Maybach the brand that they neglected to distinguish Maybach the car as anything more than a large Mercedes-Benz to take on Rolls-Royce. The Exelero, as much as I personally don't particularly love it, is much more on the right track for Maybach. It is unique and exciting -- if they could transform their limousine models into more expressive vehicles backed up with a unique and sturdy corporate culture, DCX could have something worth pursuing.

 

[Merc1]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

DCX were so fixated with creating an aura of prestige around Maybach the brand that they neglected to distinguish Maybach the car as anything more than a large Mercedes-Benz to take on Rolls-Royce. The Exelero, as much as I personally don't particularly love it, is much more on the right track for Maybach. It is unique and exciting -- if they could transform their limousine models into more expressive vehicles backed up with a unique and sturdy corporate culture, DCX could have something worth pursuing.

This was because as you'll remember the original concept was indeed a Mercedes-Benz to start with. The Maybach by Mercedes:







M

 

[SDNR]

Re: CAR Magazine - Maybach at the crossroads

M

Gosh Marcus, are you trying to give me nightmares?

Seriously though, you are absolutely right ...but I seriously doubt the Maybach would have been much more successful even if it did wear the Mercedes star.

The reality is, the whole Maybach concept of luxury is missing the point. Today, even many modestly priced cars come packed with all kinds of 'gizmos' -- and obviously this doesn't all of a sudden make them supreme luxury vehicles.

The Maybach designers focused entirely on jamming the thing with as many clever toys as possible ...but this is not what real luxury is all about -- and that is why the Phantom is winning this battle, it offers something the Maybach, despite all its brilliant equipment, doesn't -- an experience.

The Phantom is all about emotions and aesthetics -- and herewith lies the Maybachs biggest (and probably its only) flaw, it is almost emotionless, passionless.