What is the Future of fuel saving technology.

[Matt]

Gas prices are rising, no doubt, so the automotive industry has to come up with a technology thats going to utilize fuel as best as possible. What technology will arrive.
This is the big question thats circulating the automotive industry. Where are we going in terms of fuel saving? Are we going to use fuel cells or hydrogen powered automobiles? Are we going to see more and more hybrids or deisel hybrids? Will turbo charged diesel engines take over the market? Or how about steam powered forced induction (which BMW is developiong)? Or camless engines which will use less power and create more hp...Or maybe simply improving the petrol engines we see today....

What is ahead? Please enlighten us and lets have a very intelligent conversation on this upcoming issue that is soon going to be a problem.

 

[Zonda]

Ethanol?

 

[notic]

near future, hybrid. distant future? maybe hydrogen...from pebble bed reactors, or maybe natural gas

i don't understand this hype with enthanol in america. the corn that is currently being processed into ethanol is reportedly taking up more net energy than it is producing. its also quite expensive...unless they improve farming and processing methods, i don't see ethanol as a viable alternative.

also, i don't think there is enough arable soil in the united states to farm the amount of corn necessary to provide a decent alternative to oil. they better have a good trading partner ready if the government is serioius about ethanol.

 

[MikeJ]

It seems the overall economy of alternative fuels is, at the moment, much worse than that of the traditional ones (diesel being a traditional one). There was an overview of alternative fuels in a magazine, and they came to the conclusion that the alternative fuels we have now make more sense if used in electricity/heat production which can be done in less refined form than would be required in order for them to be used to power cars. Of course, one day oil will probably run out and we will be forced to use the alternatives.

I suppose Matt's question is about the American market - in Europe diesel cars will make up for more than 50% of overall sales in 2006.

 

[Michael]

Many manufacturers like Toyota have pushed to over a variety of hybrid vehicles which puts them on the map in distinguishing themselves from others. I think we will head towards a hybrid/diesel type of function for a while before we look at alternatives like hydrogen.

 

[LaArtist]

diesel hybrids.. the new Bluetchs from MB seem to be gr8

 

[Zonda]

near future, hybrid. distant future? maybe hydrogen...from pebble bed reactors, or maybe natural gas

i don't understand this hype with enthanol in america. the corn that is currently being processed into ethanol is reportedly taking up more net energy than it is producing. its also quite expensive...unless they improve farming and processing methods, i don't see ethanol as a viable alternative.

also, i don't think there is enough arable soil in the united states to farm the amount of corn necessary to provide a decent alternative to oil. they better have a good trading partner ready if the government is serioius about ethanol.

Ethanol is cheap as candy in Sweden. Last time I checked.

 

[Mr. M]

It seems the overall economy of alternative fuels is, at the moment, much worse than that of the traditional ones (diesel being a traditional one). There was an overview of alternative fuels in a magazine, and they came to the conclusion that the alternative fuels we have now make more sense if used in electricity/heat production which can be done in less refined form than would be required in order for them to be used to power cars. Of course, one day oil will probably run out and we will be forced to use the alternatives.

I suppose Matt's question is about the American market - in Europe diesel cars will make up for more than 50% of overall sales in 2006.

One thing I'm not too sure about diesel cars - they say it releases less CO2 to the environment, but does it release more of other harmful gases?

 

[MikeJ]

One thing I'm not too sure about diesel cars - they say it releases less CO2 to the environment, but does it release more of other harmful gases?

A few years ago there was a lot of talk about the particles in diesel emissions, but I suppose new particle filters have put an end to that. Other than that there are nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbons to consider, but the levels of those in the emissions of modern diesels are much lower than before, but still higher than gasoline-powered cars.

 

[Michael]

Isn't Ethenol used by formula 1?

 

[MikeJ]

Ethanol is cheap as candy in Sweden. Last time I checked.

That has little to do with production cost, it's because there's heavy tax on gasoline and diesel but not on ethanol.

 

[Matt530i]

The most promising technology is a hydrogen combustion engine (not fuel cells) though. If you could have the same performance as a gasoline/diesel engine without any harmful emissions who wouldn't make that choice? The only barrier will be whether or not hydrogen becomes an economically viable option.

That being said, there is still plenty of oil in the world and consumers will only embrace a new technology if it's cheaper or roughly the same price and considerably better for the envirnoment.

 

[Michael]

It will be relatively hard to establish hyrdrogen as a replacement fuel in the NEAR future.

I read somewhere a while ago that in order to make the hyrodgen you need oil. You need the oil not directly, but indirectly in the means of the machines that are used to extract and produce hydrgoen. The only solution would probably be to make a hyrdrogen based machine? I am not sure if this makes any sense.

 

[Matt530i]

You don't necessarily need oil to produce hydrogen. You can separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water through electrolosis. Essentially all you need then is a power source (say from a wind generator if you wanted to be very environmentally friendly). The problem is that it requires more energy for electrolosis than you get out in hydrogen. If someone solves the efficiency problem, then hydrogen should become quite viable. It's a big if though.

 

[donau]

Ethanol?

That would have been my vote too had it been a choice in the poll.

 

[Centurion]

I think that hybird is the next trend an in 5 years probably every large manufacturer will have atleast one hybird car in their lineup. Toyota and Lexus are IMO the leaders right now when it comes to hybird technology.

 

[Snake Vargas]

I also think hybrid is the next trend, whether with petrol or diesel engines. It's immediately useful and will continue to improve, too. It's not a complete solution, but IMO it's the best we have right now.

Yeah, ethanol is often cheap because it's either exempt from taxes/excise/levies etc., and, as I think is the case in Australia and other countries where there's lots of farming, grain and hence ethanol production is government subsidised, to keep the farmers in business (and therefore to keep them happy and secure their votes). There was a big blowup here at one time since (IIRC) the government wouldn't mandate that petrol stations needed to display the ethanol content of fuel if it was under 10% or something, even though some car manufacturers said that it could be damaging to the engines.

Anyhow, that mostly makes me opposed to ethanol, whether as a blending agent or as a pure fuel. If it can stand on its own two feet, then let it come. Otherwise, stop artificially making it seem attractive.

Matt530i's idea of using natural energy sources to produce hydrogen is also an idea I like. You can use electricity whenever it's generated, since wind farms don't run 24 hours/day, nor do solar panel farms, but they can do work when they can to make hydrogen, which can then be stored.

It's very difficult to ever get more energy out of something than you put in, but it's probably the method that IMO makes the best use of the forms of energy to conserve what we have and to make efficient use of natural sources.

 

[Deutsch]

For the immediate future: Hybrids & Diesels. All other alternatives are a bit expensive for infrastrutures to be built and car drivetrains to be manipulated to accept such alternative means of energy such as Hydrogen. There are only a handfull in the world right now.

What do you guys have to say about safety in using highly combustible hydrogen to run a car?

 

[Michael]

You don't necessarily need oil to produce hydrogen. You can separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water through electrolosis. Essentially all you need then is a power source (say from a wind generator if you wanted to be very environmentally friendly). The problem is that it requires more energy for electrolosis than you get out in hydrogen. If someone solves the efficiency problem, then hydrogen should become quite viable. It's a big if though.

Wow. That is a very interesting factor.

Oh by the way Luv Toyota and Lexus are the same company. So, I like to refer to them as Toyota since Toyota is the main manufacturer. Either way that is fine.

Toyota is leading the way, like I said earlier, when it comes to hybrids. I definitely can't wait to see more stylish hybrids. Honda is not behind either.

Take a look at the 253hp Honda Accord hybrid. It is a bit expensive but this is really nice http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Accord+Hybrid

 

[Deutsch]

Not only has Toyota achieved making quality hybrid engines, but also making performance oriented hybrid engines too. Has anyone seen how quick the GS450h and LS460h are? Not the best handling cars, but incredibly fast...