Vs W204 C63 Vs. E92 M3

Vehicle comparisons, matchups, debates, performance battles, and head-to-head discussions.

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Never thought in a million years I'd read the M3 has gone soft, which seems pretty much to be the case. No matter how much you would like to discredit auto journalists reviews and many comments, there's most certainly more than a shred of truth when you keep reading the same thing over and over again- and keep in mind that an auto journalists obligation to the reader is to give an honest opinion of a car having tested the extent of it's capabilities, from high to low. M engineers were pretty much lead by marketing rather than their own hearts and heads when creating the new M3. Now it's gone retarded thanks to a myriad of forced would-be batmobile gadgets to dominate the driving experience, rather than a big motor, and sound and true mechanicals. The latter which seems to be overwhelmingly, and surprisingly, the case with the C63 AMG; AMG has learned from its past and added a touch of sincerity to it's products, which seems to have begun with the CLK63 Black Series in going the extra mile to make sure that the speed/handling ratio is in near perfect balance. On the other hand the E92 M3 has been compromised on so much in concept, that it seems to have become a GT as oppose to a sports car, ultimately handing down that title to the lighter and marginally slower, but by no means inferior E92 335i coupe. C63 for me? Probably not, it's just nice to know AMG can do what we always knew it could, and disappointing that M has pissed on high expectations. The 335i is no doubt more my speed, better yet, make that a 135i. Perfect, thank you!
 
I think you might be judging a little too soon. All we have so far are journo's opinions but no hard numbers to back them up. Now if the E92 can't run track faster than the E46, then BMW screwed up. Lets wait for some track numbers.
 
I'm not judging anything too soon, the cats out of the bag and we've learned it. How much faster the E92 M3 is round a track compared to the E46 version doest say much, the E92 is going to be faster, period. My concern lies in the cars character, not track performance, that's a given.

They say, "oh, but wait! There's a CSL version coming!" - OK, but that's not something I can use on a daily basis, thats what the original E30 M3 was all about, everyday usable performance. The CSL, while an incredible car, is heavily compromised for an everyday machine- it is not, it's a purpose built track car. The one thing I do have hope in bringing the E92 M3's character closer, back to what it was- and is suppose to be- is the DCT transmission, with blitz-fast shifts it's sure to make the car more engaging than it already is. Surely there will be some improvements to the cars steering before the E92 M3 hangs its hat.So all is not lost.
 
There are most certainly people here that are going to read my comments the wrong way and say I hate the E92 M3, or that I think it's better than the C63, while I most certainly couldn't care less, I only say any of this because I care. My expectations for this car were so incredibly high, that it would have the sting of the E46 M3 in it's character but the abruptness of SMG sucked out. I didn't want them to inundate the car with gadgets and make it some sort of super hero car, but a complete default performance machine the M3 has always been. Instead, we got the super hero car with a bunch of odd compromises that can only make market demands suspect, and this is the one car BMW should never compromise on, as this is one of the pillars of BMW's reputation and an icon in its own right. I think this excerpt from CAR sums it up best

BMW has clearly engineered the M3 in a way that leaves room for a CSL to appear later and appease those demanding something more hardcore. The new M3 is a well sorted, well rounded junior GT, a car we’d all give our right arms to own, but it’s not a giant leap forward and may leave some craving something a little wilder.

Don’t dismiss it though. It’s clearly more grown up than the old car, still fun, but more of a slow burn, a car that takes a bit of time to impress you with its spread of abilities whereas the RS4 lets you know what you’re in for right from the off.
 
OKay i must say..that i also am not a hater against the M3.. i loved it..
i wanted it to be gr8..
i know some of you cant belive that..but im totally honest..

but now we have a handful of reviews wich are saying more or less the same negatives..
so there has to be something there.. not just something 1 very race focused reviewer feels.. but something most of them feels..

that is not good..
but still i want to keep faith. .but its starting to get harder..

PS
About C63 vs M3.. the battle was won when i saw the pics of the C63..like you all know looks are important to me.. and the C63 murders the M3 imo..
infact one of my big probs with the M3 is how it looks..
 
I think you might be judging a little too soon. All we have so far are journo's opinions but no hard numbers to back them up. Now if the E92 can't run track faster than the E46, then BMW screwed up. Lets wait for some track numbers.

Here are 0-1000km numbers provided by "Steved"(an EVO editor) BMW at the press launch for the E92 M3.

Just a few more details about the performance of the new M3. BMW published at the press conference a 0-1000km time of 23.3 seconds.

This compares with the latest M5 Touring which they quote 22.9 seconds for. The M5 Saloon is quoted at 22.7 seconds.

They also quote a 80-120 km/h figure in 4th gear of 4.9 seconds which compares with the 5.2 seconds they quote for the 335i.

The M3 CSL numbers were 23.5 and 5.0 seconds.

The E46 M3 numbers were 24.2 and 5.3 seconds.


PS
About C63 vs M3.. the battle was won when i saw the pics of the C63..like you all know looks are important to me.. and the C63 murders the M3 imo..
infact one of my big probs with the M3 is how it looks..

Looks are entirely subjective, performance/handling wise... will have to wait for an official comparison.
 
The one thing that has bummed me out more than anything about the E92's reported compromises/flaws has been the steering gone "light" and lacking "feel", but now I've read an interesting comment that brings to light some elements I did not consider before, and probably none of the others writers in any of the other reviews did not as well: road surface. Steved makes a very very good point on the matter:

There was nothing wrong with the steering. I drove my M3 CSL this morning and felt that the E92 M3 had better steering feel.

None of the damp reviews have made any comment thus far about the types of road we were driving on - it was glassy smooth. It takes two elements to provide feel through the steering, tyre and road surface and yet these comments fail to even show consideration of these factors. We identified a slight numbness upon initial turn-in (as I mentioned in my earliest posts) but this varied depending on the road surface, so we did not consider it an indication of poor steering. On roads higher up the hills it felt fine.

I drove there in an Audi RS4 which steered very nicely on the roads down to Marbella, but around the twisty bends of our test route it felt shite (the M3 felt much better). I also read in one of the reviews a comment about the TC light flashing on the M3, and how this reflected on its lack of traction. Ha! We ran both RS4 and M3 up and down the hills at least a dozen times, driving v quickly, and it was the M3 that gained more traction and pulled distance out of tighter corners.
 
I think you might be judging a little too soon. All we have so far are journo's opinions but no hard numbers to back them up. Now if the E92 can't run track faster than the E46, then BMW screwed up. Lets wait for some track numbers.

I don't think he judgment has come too soon. We have already read 3-4 reviews with disappointing verdicts.
 
Very interesting info Deutsch!
I believe what the articles are saying about the new M3, no doubt it`s a super GT but it seems BMW might be giving away it`s original touch to what it`s clientele and fans desires, this is mostly aesthetic engineering instead of whats really needed. (nothing really needs to be added to the M3)

Just_me pointed out not too long ago, "why did the M3 need a V8,
to stay with the competition?" as we can see so far the numbers of this engine just don`t stack up.
 
Just_me pointed out not too long ago, "why did the M3 need a V8,
to stay with the competition?" as we can see so far the numbers of this engine just don`t stack up.

BMW required a V8 because they said the inline-6 was already at its limit in terms of what they could extract out of it reliably. I think there is a sense of sour-grapes from BMW fans/Just_me (no offence), who wish to believe that power is everything, and the winner will have more power. Everyone knows there would be an eventual limit to when the power wars would have to stop, simply because an everyday person could not handle that power, and so couldn't the environment. I guess the M3 has started this trend.

I also feel that some people on this board really need to get it together... somehow they are making it seem like the world has turned upside down, and heaven has turned to hell. That somehow AMG and turned to M and vice versa. And in the end, its all because of expectations of the reviewers and ourselves. When you have an too high expectations, the only way your expectations can go is down, and that is the case of the M3. In the case of the C63, the expectation wasn't that high, considering the C55 (relatively). Hence the only way is up.

Does that make the C63 better than the M3 in terms of driveability etc? Despite the overreaction of several Merc fans that want to believe, of course not. It simply means that the two cars characters have come closer together, only a true comparative test can prove which is better.

So am I disappointed with the M3? I don't know, I've never driven it. But based on reviews I wouldn't say I'm disappointed as such - I'm more interested in the way they've changed their approach. Everybody knows that daily-drivability and on-the-edge-drivability, in general, are mutually exclusive at a certain price point. I think M had finally come to a cross-roads in terms of combining these two forms of drivability, to satisfy all customers. I've heard/read several times over that the E46 M3 wasn't very good in terms of its daily-drivability, such as "the raspy engine-noise can be somewhat tiring over long distances". Given that the M3 is now a somewhat high-selling vehicle to everyone not just enthusiasts, I suspect BMW couldn't simply ignore this. But they couldn't ignore the enthusiasts, which comprise a large portion of their fan base. So they decided to fork off and produce two cars to satisfy both customers - the M3 and the M3 CSL.

That's the thing that has surprised me most about these reviews, the fact that the M3 CSL is so highly advertised. I haven't read one review which hasn't commented on the CSL version. So I suspect that the M3 CSL will come soon, and it won't be a limited edition version like the previous, I also don't expect it to be overly expensive compared to the M3, primarily because I think it'll be mass-produced also.

I think BMW may have done a wise thing here considering their circumstances. Everybody expected the on-the-edge-drivability, the performance and the supposedly daily-drivability of the Porsche Turbo/Audi R8, to be combined in the character of the M3. But maybe it quite simply can't be done for the price of an M3. So if you can't combine both, why not do two? Let the driver decide which they want?

Truth be told still, if I were to win the lottery, I would buy the M3 over the CSL version. Because I still think the M3 will be a better drive than the C63 and RS4, but I would still have everyday requirements for the car. But I guess we'll see in the first comparative test. In the mean time, I need to win the lottery.
 
^i dont think despite the bad reviews many belive the AMG will be better in handling..
not around this forum..

ppl still belive M3.. some more some less.
but the faith is falling with every review..
and i refuse to belive that these review results where every bmw fans wet dream..
they are not liking this..no matter what they say in public..
 
^i dont think despite the bad reviews many belive the AMG will be better in handling..
not around this forum..

ppl still belive M3.. some more some less.
but the faith is falling with every review..
and i refuse to belive that these review results where every bmw fans wet dream..
they are not liking this..no matter what they say in public..

I don't fully understand your post. Unfortunately, alot doesn't make much sense. Although what I gather you are saying is that BMW fanboys aren't happy with the current M3 as it is more civilised. And thats the point of my post, they may not be happy with the current M3, because BMW designed this M3 for the masses, whereas they might be happy with the M3 CSL, which BMW designed for them.

This is my hypothesis anyway. In many ways it seems to me that M are following AMG in the way of their Black Series Range. Rebadging their black-series range to CSL/CS. But who knows, thats why opinion anyway.

Although one thing I have noticed through this exercise is how fickle the fanboy is. How many posts have a read that say: "Looks like I'm keeping my E46 and cancelling my order for the E92", or "i'm getting a C63", after reading a few initial cut-down reviews. Quite honestly, a serious buyer who is willing to lay down the dosh would seriously look at the cars, drive it and compare it against its rivals and make their decision, rather than read a cut down version of a full review and base their entire purchase on that.

Oh and one of the greatest comments ever is "the M3 engine is weak". For crying out loud, 420hp is far from weak. My car has 200hp, in fact 95% of people's personal cars on this boards have less than 420hp. Now let me do the calculations: 420 - 200hp = 220hp. Now lets do the calculation vs C63 and M3: 457 - 420 = 37hp. My god. My car mustn't be able to move with over 220hp less than the M3. Good lord what am I thinking.

My advice to the fanboy who is crying foul and is considering hurting themselves or committing suicide (quite honestly, given the comments on this board, it sounds like some people are considering it) is - Get over it, its only a car. In the worst case, it'll be an absolute failure and BMW will learn from their mistakes. But what does it matter to 90% of you on this board? Absolutely nothing, since you won't be buying the car anyway. Is it a failure so far? No, of course not. Its just some people are too easy to admit defeat, and some people are too quick to take a win, before the game has even started.
 
Now that I've wised up on the E92 M3's heritage and features, I can say that M isn't following anyone. they're simply fulfilling customer wishes by including certain features to appease these individuals. All trademark M features are still intact with this car(high revving engine, track honed suspension, and ultra sensitive and responsive dynamics, wrapped in an ultra aerodynamically tuned exterior). So of course in the pursuit of being more things to more people there are some things that end up compromised, but the key components of what make an "M car" an "M" are there. Like I've said in other threads, the steering has room for improvement(19's will probably increase steering sensitivity) as do other things on the car, and M has always addressed concerns with updates gradually over the life cycle. So regardless of popular opinion, the M3 is what it is, a modernized update of the original, and no doubt an awesome car.
 
I just bought the latest Autobild magazine where they have a short testdrive of both the 2007 BMW M3 and the 2007 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. In both reviews, they claim: "The BMW M3 has a lot to worry about..." in reference to the C63 AMG. I suppose this is said because the C63 AMG drives like no other AMG before it. They said it "handles" and has a very "sharp and direct steering response" and "love to take corners - no matter how curvy". :eusa_danc

Will post the scans later today. :usa7uh:
 
^wow caw.. that sound thrilling.. im waiting for that scan..

PS
gene i feel your pain..some are really exaggerating, they must give it more time..
the point of my post was.. that no BMW fan is happy with the initiall reports..
they could have said so much more.. i dont buy it if some bmw fan tells me..i knew the first reviews would look like this.. thats just not true..
but now that they are.. some resort to panic.. some are more calm..
thats just how ppl are..
and about its JUST being a car.. this is car forum..here a car is not JUST a car..
but this is a virtuall world we live in for a moment when we read and write posts.. so dont worry i dont belive many of us takes the issues from the board into our private life.. lol... that would just be stupid..
 
I think there is a sense of sour-grapes from BMW fans/Just_me (no offence), who wish to believe that power is everything, and the winner will have more power.

How many years havent I've been on this board that people by now should learn that power isn't everything to me. Its not the power that worries me about the new M3, its the driving experience that concerns me (mostly the steering part), again, not the power. Never in millions year have I ever said that car with most power is the winner, if that was the case I would have choosen to like AMG's a long time ago.
 
thats what the original E30 M3 was all about, everyday usable performance. The CSL, while an incredible car, is heavily compromised for an everyday machine- it is not, it's a purpose built track car.

Actually, E30 M3 was very hard car to live with - after all it was a homologation special derived from a race car - the ride was very hard and the engine very temperamental (till the oil warmed up) and the driveline hated stop and go traffic and maintenance was a bitch. Being state side, I have never been in a CSL, but I have a tough time to imagine it is any worse than the E30 as daily driver. BTW there was also a E36 CSL that was more hard core than E46 CSL with no AC or anything. Another tidbit, when E36 M3 was released people bemoaned the fact how it was softer than E30 (and it was - it was a proper street car, not some race car derived homologation special), but of course later it went on be known as one the best handling car of its time.
 
I just bought the latest Autobild magazine where they have a short testdrive of both the 2007 BMW M3 and the 2007 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. In both reviews, they claim: "The BMW M3 has a lot to worry about..." in reference to the C63 AMG. I suppose this is said because the C63 AMG drives like no other AMG before it. They said it "handles" and has a very "sharp and direct steering response" and "love to take corners - no matter how curvy". :eusa_danc

Will post the scans later today. :usa7uh:

that will be excellent.Can u do some translation also.Please:eusa_pray
 
HERE IT IS! -C63 AMG Scans

Here are some things they said about the C63 AMG.

-Terrifying V8 sound
-Quick acceleration
-Excellent handling / dynamics
-Very responsive and direct steering

+A terrific engine
+Agile handling
+Excellent brakes
+Sporty suspension
+Nice engine sound


-Interior doesn't look very premium
-Fuel consumption
-Predicted expensive costs



Here's the Fazit from Autobild editor Lars Zühlke:

"AMG's have always fast. But for the first time, AMG is also serious about driving dynamics. The new M3 will have a very hard time..."

Grade: 1- = A-




The Scans
http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c63amgautobildko8.jpg

BMW M3 coming up in a few minutes...
 

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