VW CEO frustrated by Hyundai's new i30 solid fit & finish!

[K-A]

Wow! This is amazing. Gotta give respect to Hyundai/Kia for the 180 they've done in a few short years (literally). They still have a ways to go, to catch up in certain "not on paper" areas, but as for offering the best appliance for a price, with some pizzaz to boot, they have the industry at the moment, I think.

I also want to hear about the Chris Bangle comments that Scott was talking about.

And finally, BIG respect to the VW CEO for this. This actually in a weird way is a veiled advertisement for the VW Group, as it shows how HANDS ON their high up man is, how much he pays attention, and how he will himself, jump in a competitors car, and "listen to them". It also means that the future must be bright for VW.

 

[Cashmere]

and a VW salesman responds

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[EnI]

^LOL

Yes, 'cause door banging & humping quality is very important ... eg. when visiting drive-in safari, or a ghetto, or a riot / protest site. Is it scratch-proof too? Fire-proof?

Btw, I find it very lame when some senior engineers & officials check the competition so publicly @ autoshows.

They could easily get a car for a test drive at a local dealer for a few hours, or even a day ... and they'll be able to scrutinize it very closely in some well-equipped garage. Privately.

Now it looks like a viral ad for Hyundai i30.

And it gives you an insight of VAG, how Winterkorn (and I'm sure Piech as Chairman as well) are micromanaging the processes. Presenting all the designers, engineers, marketing guys etc as completely incompetent stuff. I remember something similar was happening @ BMW with CEO von Kuenheim, and later with Reitzle as R&D chief. Is it a good thing? I guess it is. Especially when bosses are net-picking. It helps to better the products & processes. But then the serious question really emerges: if the senior director has to micromanage to make the things right ... how competent are then the employed engineers, designers etc.

And yes ... I would also love to see Bangle's comments form IAA.

 

[Human]

^LOL

Yes, 'cause door banging & humping quality is very important ... eg. when visiting drive-in safari, or a ghetto, or a riot / protest site. Is it scratch-proof too? Fire-proof?

Btw, I find it very lame when some senior engineers & officials check the competition so publicly @ autoshows. (1)

They could easily get a car for a test drive at a local dealer for a few hours, or even a day ... and they'll be able to scrutinize it very closely in some well-equipped garage. Privately.

Now it looks like a viral ad for Hyundai i30.

And it gives you an insight of VAG, how Winterkorn (and I'm sure Piech as Chairman as well) are micromanaging the processes. Presenting all the designers, engineers, marketing guys etc as completely incompetent stuff. I remember something similar was happening @ BMW with CEO von Kuenheim, and later with Reitzle (2) as R&D chief. Is it a good thing? I guess it is. Especially when bosses are net-picking. It helps to better the products & processes. But then the serious question really emerges: if the senior director has to micromanage to make the things right ... how competent are then the employed engineers, designers etc.(3)

And yes ... I would also love to see Bangle's comments form IAA.

(1) Now that is where you're wrong IMO. This must be the thread of the year and kudos to you. We the public, consumer and enthusiast need to be reassured that the top-brass that are paid the top $ is looking after us and after those who invest in their respective companies - before we take our money (and heart) elsewhere

(2) Bring Panke back

(3) Isn't it funny how this thread started by yourself raises more questions than answers? The much needed - 'can the mighty German Auto Industry, reinvent themselves and fight of the REAL "invasion" by offering REAL premium albeit at a premium price again?'
Okay, the above is one question that was raised in my mind and there are many! The Koreans has been on my mind since KIA launched their new Sportage. And the whole thing made me a loyalist to the Dark Sides strategy, because they are the only ones who has the balls and cash to fight of the 'invasion' - JOIN THE DARK SIDE my apprentice

Pure luck or cleverness from Betty Swollocks in joining the dark side? I will bet on the latter.

Don't stress Klier mate, I am only campaigning for the Germans against the Korean Invasion.

 

[EnI]

As discussed many times by me ... The "mass premium" is in jeopardy. What is premium right now? Especially perceivable one.

Once it was the tech. Today almost every car can have the latest tech. Especially when solutions are modular, and easily to trickle down from bigger models. And also tech development is so fast right now that a premium solution premiered in a top-end car wears out within car's Mk lifecycle.
Perhaps the materials? You can get a leather in almost every car if you want. And even smallest cars introduces the cabin trim. So, this is hardly premium today.
Is it the design? Hardly.
Size of the car. I doubt it.
Is the brand - capitalize on heritage & past qualities? Sure. But for how long?
Is it the price positioning? In some cases. But people are not that stupid & manipulable anymore. They are much more aware about the products.
Is it the what ... the company's or brand's sustainability? Econess? Social responsibility? Perhaps, but not really.
The after-sales services? Maybe.

What will define premium of the future? And since majority of German automotive brands & companies are perceived as premium today, they are at risk the most. Since they have to find the competitive advantage over non-premium rivals.

What ever will it be, it will cost a lot. And the question is will the investors ready to sacrifice the profits, since I doubt customers will be ready for higher premium car prices.

IMO it will become all about the details. Detailing is what will differ premium from non-premium. Perhaps styling individuality. But that costs a lot. And with cost-effective modular solutions - even adopted by premium manufacturers to be cost/profit-competitive - this is a real challenge.

Sure the superexpensive limited-production hand-manufactured cars will sure retain the premium status ... but what about the mass-premium brands & cars? Or the brands between economy & mass-premium (like VW, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Saab etc) - how will they be able to retain the better image when more than solid competition from Asia (or even Europe) is starting to be very aggressive in this segment.

VW can start a fierce price war. But this can end badly for all the involved. Some companies can get in financial trouble, and VAG can face a nasty antitrust action from regulatory bureaus, ending in paying huge fines or even being to sell off some of its MASS brands (namely Skoda and perhaps even Seat).

I completely understand the frustration of Winterkorn ... And with further upscale models coming from KIA & Hyundai I'm sure frustration will creep in Zetsche's, Reithofer's & Stadler's office as well.

 

[Turboholic]

oh the steering wheel nechanism makes no sound, incredible!!! WHAT A CAR!!!

 

[Centurion]

^LOL

Yes, 'cause door banging & humping quality is very important ... eg. when visiting drive-in safari, or a ghetto, or a riot / protest site. Is it scratch-proof too? Fire-proof?

Btw, I find it very lame when some senior engineers & officials check the competition so publicly @ autoshows.

They could easily get a car for a test drive at a local dealer for a few hours, or even a day ... and they'll be able to scrutinize it very closely in some well-equipped garage. Privately.

Now it looks like a viral ad for Hyundai i30.

And it gives you an insight of VAG, how Winterkorn (and I'm sure Piech as Chairman as well) are micromanaging the processes. Presenting all the designers, engineers, marketing guys etc as completely incompetent stuff. I remember something similar was happening @ BMW with CEO von Kuenheim, and later with Reitzle as R&D chief. Is it a good thing? I guess it is. Especially when bosses are net-picking. It helps to better the products & processes. But then the serious question really emerges: if the senior director has to micromanage to make the things right ... how competent are then the employed engineers, designers etc.

And yes ... I would also love to see Bangle's comments form IAA.

Micro management is a necessary evil of good leadership. Just look at companies like RIM and other giant corporations who's board employ CEO from a completely unrelated industry. These CEO play no other role but being resource managers who decide how much will be spent on R&D, what markets to enter and how much to spend on marketing etc. They would even know how to use the company's most recent product let alone name it.

All the VAG overloads have deep engineering background and gives them the possibility to hang the blazer on the coat rack, roll up the sleeves and get involved with fine tuning finer details that can make the difference between a good and disastrous car. So micro management is not a biproduct of Martins' subordinates being painted incompetent. Its about working together to create even better cars that don't have cheaper equivalents.

Props to Huyndai. This is marvellous publicity. Can't wait to see how they will milk this in their next viral ads. Them and KIA are doing exactly what they should in order to convince European shoppers that Asian cars can be equally as compelling.

CEOs visiting other booths is normal. At the Paris autoshow a year ago I caught the Designer of the CLS at Audo by the quattro concept chatting to the young lad who designed the exterior. And at Frankfurt two years ago I bumped into Fisker for a chat amidst a safari of Panameras which he was locking his eyes on. It was quite amusing :d

 

[Guibo]

Yes, 'cause door banging & humping quality is very important ... eg. when visiting drive-in safari, or a ghetto, or a riot / protest site. Is it scratch-proof too? Fire-proof?

It's a funny commercial, but it's reassuring to know something as simple as the doors are so sturdy. Mercedes did the same thing when the current C-Class was first released. Their commercial showed 4 of their assembly line workers each sitting on a door. When I went to see the C-Class at an auto show, I could see why (and compare to the typical doorhinge next to it):

Immediately you notice the heavy-duty nature of the hinge. It's thick and solid, while the other one looks like it could easily crumple. The bolt head on the Mercedes appears to have the 3-pointed star. Aside from a stamp of pride, it's an indication they haven't settled on any off-the-shelf bolt, but have probably stress-tested it and found it fully appropriate for the job.
If you've driven kids around after a long day, you know they can get tired and hang onto just about anything. Will a big guy ever jump on the door? Probably not. But just like most who buy premium watches will never dive to 200m or land on the moon, it's reassuring to know just how over-engineered some things can be. If they've put this much thought into a hinge, imagine how durable the rest of the car might be.

Perhaps in the short-term the premium brands will feel the pressure from non-premium brands. I think in the long run, the Koreans may see what happens when their products improve and their overall standard of living improves. Just as in Japan, the value of their currency goes up, the cost of labor goes up. TVs and other electronics that were once built in Japan are farmed out to foreign plants where labor is cheaper (China and Malaysia).

As to Winterkorn, the timing of this video and VW's announcement of 62B in investment is rather peculiar, as Human pointed out. Perhaps that investment is a compromise figure, and he wanted more but the board members resisted. This is maybe his way of shaking them up, or reassuring them that the investment of that level is absolutely necessary: "You guys arrive at work in your A8s or chauffered Bentleys. You have no idea of what we're up against. We can no longer afford to cut costs in development!" He may have been hamming it up for the camera, but we have seen what happens when a company (GM/Ford/Chrysler) takes cost-cutting too far, when upper management consists of too many bean counters rather than real car guys: they are removed from the very real differences in quality of competitors.

 

[K-A]

Wow, I just remembered this ad. Hyundai WEREN'T KIDDING. This is insanely accurate, as if it was a prediction toward the near future:

ANGRY BOSSES spot:
Hyundai Super Bowl XLIII Ad "Angry Bosses" Jeff Bridges in-game spot Exclusive - YouTube

And good pics by Guibo, with M-B's door hinge area. THAT *attention to detail* is what we require from Mercedes-Benz, right down to the Star on the bolt. THAT is what will significantly impact how "Premium" a car is, more-so in the future than ever. As ENI said, everyone's catching up to everyone in with the big stuff (engines, tech, etc.), but people are cost cutting the small details more than ever. M-B and BMW CAN NOT afford to cost cut the little areas any more than they already have, or they inevitably might fall victim to "Just another mass brand". Things like the E-Class having plastic panels around the footwells, when the W211 had carpet, is stuff that they know their "I just want the badge/Lease than throw away" crowd won't notice, but certain people DO, and that visual care for detail and refinement is what lots of people open their wallets up for.

And I want to know what Bangle said! Spill it, Scott!

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

The automotive industry is really shaking up. You have Hyundai's which are easily the match or better than their rival Japanese counterparts, and then you have brands like Audi, BMW and MB venturing down lower than they have ever been before. Eni poses a particularly interesting question in, what exactly will define 'premium'?

While KA may have a point about 'build and finish' defining premium, even the lower end of the market is reaching a point where there is in fact not much to complain about, especially with a 5 year warranty up your sleeve. Furthermore to define premium based on long term build may be another pointless excercise because at the end of the day cars have become consumables. Seriously, how many people keep their cars for the lifetime of the vehicle? Cars like MB, Audi and BMW are dumped en masse when a new model is out because of new technology, new styling and of course street cred.

I think bangle was of the firm belief that styling would be an integral factor in defining premium, which is why he pushed BMW towards such avant-garde design. Styling that actually costed money to engineer, to the point that BMW actually cut 'interior' budgets to compensate for the build complexity of the exterior.

 

[K-A]

Only problem now, is that the cheaper brands are doing more extreme styling than the Europeans. Will they all just see who can make the most insane styles, to prove that they're "premium", or will it be that the "premium" brands will showcase their advanced nature through more solid, confident and conservative designs.

Bangle had a good point, and it in theory is true and makes sense. And it definitely holds true. People say "M-B's look like xxxx car now / BMW's look like xxxx car now", but when you put an M-B or BMW next to a Hyundai/etc. that might appear similar, you'll see how much more precise, crisp, and technical the sheetmetal and lines are on the M-B/BMW. That to me defines premium 100%. And not to mention, that tension within the metal costs $$$$, so it's not just about "looking the part", like the Japanese do, it's about "being the part".

My E has a downward sloping crease, as do millions of cars. However, M-B does it and executes it better. That is what expect at least. That attention to detail, and not frivolous styling, rather, precise and artful styling, regardless of how simple or advanced the actual "sketch".

 

[SCOTT27]

From my recollection @ BMW he talked with Adrian VanHooydunk about the i3 and i8. (full of praise because he says that it is a very futuristic design medium)
And the M5. Where he compares the understated look of M cars that intentionally do not give up their secret until you get behind the wheel.
It does not need to brag immediately or something to that effect.
They briefly mention the 6. As Adrian was Bangle's student who designed the previous model.

I saw the VW and Porsche team at the Maserati Kubang. Now if you remember when the first kubang came out it lead to discussions regarding a co-operation with VAG to exchange the Touareg chassis for the Quattroporte chassis which did not come to anything at the end. I think it was because VAG wanted to get their pincers @ Ferrari or something that brought proceedings to a close.

Anyway the Kubang interior was pretty much off-limits but they had a good look around the exterior and yes the tape measure came out. But because the exterior was only available it was more hand-signals , interesting enough they pulled out the tape measure slightly longer than the Kubang which suggests they were comparing it with a "hypothetical concept"

The Kubang is a fairly pretty car I especially like how they have integrated Maserati design cues to the Kubang such as the C-Pillar which mimics the one of the GT and Quattroporte. The rear roof linecame into particular attention because of it is more Coupe and X6 like rather than upright like the Cayenne. So they had a good discussion regarding this. Which begs the question? Will the Bentley SUV be more Coupe-esque or more conventional like the Cayenne etc?...

If you remember in 2007 Eni ?- The Piech/Porsche benchmarking at the IAA over the BMW X6 Concept? "Porsche should be doing this first... Not BMW , why did we not think of this first?" Hence why the Porsche Cajun is a Sport Activity Coupe and more Porsche like in form.

 

[7saen]

If you remember in 2007 Eni ?- The Piech/Porsche benchmarking at the IAA over the BMW X6 Concept? "Porsche should be doing this first... Not BMW , why did we not think of this first?" Hence why the Porsche Cajun is a Sport Activity Coupe and more Porsche like in form.

Wasn't the benchmark for the X6 some Acura Concept?

 

[Deckhook]

I think it's great that Hyundai and Kia have reached the point there the likes of VW and other industrial leading brands are taking them seriously, I have been watching the latest ads for their i40 touring and rate it one of the best looking estates out there. Korea are finally on the map in my opinion and this is only the start of it because their products are continuing to improve at an alarming rate.

 

[sfbayfan]

And if I were the Japanese brands, I would be very nervous too.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

You all have to realise that this practice happens in the industry all the time.

When a new model is launched, a rival company always somehow manages to get hold of an early-build model. A group of engineers and accountants then get together and examine the car in great detail. Once done, they strip the car bit-by-bit. The engineers obtain a grasp of what makes a car tick and a gist of what solutions were devised to the obvious complex problems. The accountants (with the purchasing officers) get an idea of what the car costs to make.

What Martin Winterkorn's doing is nothing special. In fact, i'd say that he's wasting his time.

 

[Wolfgang]

Hyundai-Kia is also a fuel cell leader. E.g. they plan a limited production run of 1000 starting next year...

And 10,000 by 2015.

Hyundai FCV Ready to Roll

 

[Wolfgang]

Winterkorn was found inspecting again. This time the new SL. Did it pass???

Did he bring a magnet for testing?

Martin Winterkorn: Neuer Mercedes SL gut genug für den VW-Boss? - Nachrichten Motor - WELT ONLINE

 

[K-A]

Man, I'd love to know what I said.

 

[SCOTT27]

They had a good look around the F30 3er also , I am told especially the fit and finish of the 3er Luxury Line. Which the leather and wood surfaces come direct from the 7er .