The new CEO of Ford drives 'the finest car in the world'

[Top Secret]

Just a quick remark and i will reply to the rest later. Jaguar and Cadillac are well established luxury marques as far as i am concerned cause they have the tradition and unique identity that it takes for a marque to be considered as luxurious. They don't immitate and they didn't fall from the sky one day trying to convince everyone of their status.

I'm not sure where Jaguar and Cadillac come into this discussion, but whatever. I also disagree with your opinion that history and tradition makes a luxury brand, but I'll let that one slide.

Also, you have to remember that every luxury marque, at one time, 'fell from the sky one day' and convinced everyone that they made luxury cars. It's just that the time in which they did that was so long ago, people have forgotten and assumed that these brand have just 'been there'. Lexus is essentially doing the same thing, only it's much harder for them to establish themselves as a prestige marque in such a modern,large, commercialised and globalised world of ours. Yet, in some parts of the world, they've done it. In the US and Australia, Lexus is often found in the same sentence as BMW and MB. It's just that in Europe, they haven't so far.

There are numerous examples of these types of car manufacturers. Take Pagani for example. They essentially came out of nowhere in 1999 with the release of the C12, and now, not even 10 years later, we consider the iconic Zonda better than rival Ferrari's and Porsches, even though these brands each have 50+ years history behind them. Sure, perhaps it's easier for supercar brands to 'make it', but there's no reason why Lexus, in the near future, can't.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You seem to assume that Lexus imitates it's competitors and make it out to be a bad thing. You think that other prestige marques, or heck, EVERY other car maker in the world doesn't imitate or copy it's rivals? Everyone is just as guilty as Lexus.

NB: I don't actually think Lexus is a habitual imitator of it's competitors. They haven't succumbed to the iDrive/MMI/COMMAND nonsense like it's competitiors, nor have their recent styling efforts reflected those of their rivals. They, in my view, have their own 'identity'.

 

[Mr. M]

Yannis, I fail to see how I "fell" for Lexus "propaganda". What propaganda lies with the success of Lexus? Nothing, really. They simply make good cars that can mix it with the best of them. It's nothing confusing or idiotic about it. The fact that they became front-runners with such established nameplates such as BMW and MB in only the past few years is testament to how good Lexus' are. No propaganda. Just good, simple cars.

As for their limited successes in Europe, just because a brand doesn't sell very well doesn't mean that their cars are not good. That's stupid. You have to remember, that the majority group doesn't care about how 'good' a car is, but focus more on the trends and brand reputation/history. Also, other factors such as advertising and brand awareness also contribute to the success of a car manufacturer. Now, I don't live in Europe, so I can't really elaborate on Lexus' limited succeses, but looking from the outside in, I could only assume that the lack of advertising in print and media and Lexus is failing to properly get their cars 'out there'. Also, the history of the brand (which can't be helped) must also provide a crippling effect to the sales.

However, it is obvious that Lexus is trying to find it's feet in Europe after such huge successes in America (which still stand as the largest car market in the world) and arguably, Lexus will invest a large amount in getting the Lexus nameplate into Europe. Whether this will meet success in the next few years is debatable, but I hope they succeed, as they deserve it.

Another factor which contributes to the dismal sales is the European 'resistance' to Japanese cars. As far as I know, brands that are popular in Australia and USA, such as Mazda, Nissan and Toyota are continually shunned by the European public. You are a classic example of this attitude. According to you, anything that's not German should be regarded as an inferior vehicle. Perhaps that might be due to European car prices being lower than equivalent costs in America and Australia (where Japanese cars being great value for money), so 'premium' brand cars from Europe are of similar prices to that of their Japanese counterparts. This is just a mindset of the European majority, and ultimately, it will take years and years, if ever, to break that mentality. Lexus simply cannot do anything about this mindset, and will endure tough times in the coming years. Just plain bad luck, really.

So there you have it Yannis. There's no relationship between good cars and sales, and Lexus' less-than-impressive sales are more contributed to the mindset of the European public, and just pure bad luck. Nothing else, to be honest.

Don't forget as well that Lexus doesn't make enough comparable diesel cars that can compete with the highly-developed diesel models of the German cars. Diesel cars contribute to plenty of car sales in some countries in Europe, and in many at least more than half of the cars sold are diesel-powered. A solid, awesome diesel car is needed dearly to penetrate the European market- I believe this is the one and perhaps only aspect at which Lexus is lacking in at the moment.

 

[Yperion]

I'm not sure where Jaguar and Cadillac come into this discussion, but whatever. I also disagree with your opinion that history and tradition makes a luxury brand, but I'll let that one slide.

I said that regarding your comment:

You are a classic example of this attitude. According to you, anything that's not German should be regarded as an inferior vehicle.

So you believe that i consider (for example) Rolce Royce , Bentley, Ferrari or even Pagani and Spyker inferior? When did i said that?

Pagani is not a good example as how a new car maker can be established overnight as they have very limited production and make top of the world , ultra expensive cars and that makes them unique and desirable.

 

[SDNR]

The newly named chief executive officer of Ford Motor Co. drives a Lexus LS 430, the flagship luxury sedan from Toyota Motor Corp. that he unabashedly says he purchased because "it's the finest car in the world."

FULL ARTICLE

...and there is the problem with Ford. If they honestly view Lexus as the benchmark, then they have clearly lost their passion for automobiles.

 

[Top Secret]

I said that regarding your comment:



So you believe that i consider (for example) Rolce Royce , Bentley, Ferrari or even Pagani and Spyker inferior? When did i said that?

Pagani is not a good example as how a new car maker can be established overnight as they have very limited production and make top of the world , ultra expensive cars and that makes them unique and desirable.

No, I know you don't consider Bentley inferior, because suprise, suprise, they're owned by VAG, but I came to the conclusion that you find other vehicles inferior because you don't like any French manufacturers, any Japanese manufacturers, no American manufacturers (bar Cadillac, it seems), which make up a heck of a lot of the automotive landscape.

Referring to the Pagani example, I believe it's very relevant, because there have been thousands of exclusive supercar makers like Farboud who have seemingly disappeared into nothing. It's a ruthless market, however many they make or however expensive they are. It still applies to the luxury market, although to a greater extent. But I believe Lexus has the potential to crack it.

 

[SDNR]

Just a quick remark and i will reply to the rest later. Jaguar and Cadillac are well established luxury marques as far as i am concerned cause they have the tradition and unique identity that it takes for a marque to be considered as luxurious. They don't immitate and they didn't fall from the sky one day trying to convince everyone of their status.

I agree Yannis ..we must also realize that the most fundamental difference between Lexus and its competitors is Lexus was conceived in a boardroom ....it is as much an exercise in exemplary marketing as it is in excellent engineering -- DCX could learn a thing or two from Lexus, with regards to Maybach.

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac -- regardless of whether they are technically better or inferior to Lexus, are still stronger brands in the minds of millions of consumers.

However, I must commend Toyota for doing their homework; they understand the psyche of the American market inside-out -- unlike VAG with the Phaeton. The Europeans will take a little more time, but Lexus are certainly a serious threat to the Germans ...Mercedes and BMW cannot afford to be complacent.

 

[Merc1]

Wow a debate about Lexus! Should I or shouldn't I?

M

 

[PanterroR]

Wow a debate about Lexus! Should I or shouldn't I?

M

You should! Get 'em!

 

[Yperion]

I agree Yannis ..we must also realize that the most fundamental difference between Lexus and its competitors is Lexus was conceived in a boardroom ....it is as much an exercise in exemplary marketing as it is in excellent engineering -- DCX could learn a thing or two from Lexus, with regards to Maybach.

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac -- regardless of whether they are technically better or inferior to Lexus, are still stronger brands in the minds of millions of consumers.

However, I must commend Toyota for doing their homework; they understand the psyche of the American market inside-out -- unlike VAG with the Phaeton. The Europeans will take a little more time, but Lexus are certainly a serious threat to the Germans ...Mercedes and BMW cannot afford to be complacent.

I agree 100%.

I also don't understand why Top Secret accuses me of not liking Japanese , French and American cars (with a few exceptions). If i liked them then it would make no sense to be in a forum called GERMAN Car Zone.

 

[warot]

I agree 100%.

I also don't understand why Top Secret accuses me of not liking Japanese , French and American cars (with a few exceptions). If i liked them then it would make no sense to be in a forum called GERMAN Car Zone.

I'm sorry Yannis but I have to agree with TS. If there was a Lexus badge on an A8, my bet would be that you wouldn't like it. Sure this is German car zone but still, some respect has to be given to Lexus.

Look, I'm going to come out and say that Lexus is pretty far down my list after German cars (mostly because I don't really like their styling. New ones aren't as bad). But if we for a moment stop thinking about the brand itself, and think of the cars, are they really that inferior to the Germans (if inferior at all)? I don't think so, I really don't. Sure brand is important, but sometimes you have to see past the marketing and what not and look at the product.

Btw, TS, Pagani is an excellent example. It doesn't matter how many cars they sell. They came out of nowhere. Now they are world famous. DIfferent scale I guess, same idea.

 

[Yperion]

I'm sorry Yannis but I have to agree with TS. If there was a Lexus badge on an A8, my bet would be that you wouldn't like it.

Lexus could had never made a car like the A8 (or S class or 7 series) because making such a car is not a matter of effort or money spend. It's also about long standing tradition in excellence and heritage which they don't have.

 

[MikeJ]

Great discussion guys. Maybe I should throw in my two cents' worth...

I live in Finland. In Finland, we have relatively long distances between towns and cities and long, cold winters. What all that means is that people want to have reliable cars that they can trust to take them from A to B and back even in the middle of winter. So it's hardly a surprise that Toyota is the most popular brand here, with the Corolla, Avensis and RAV4 being the most popular cars in their respective classes. Toyotas are in very high demand in the used car market as well, due to their reliability and longevity. Other Japanese brands are (or at least have been) quite popular, too. Furthermore, Finns are generally speaking not as brand conscious as most Europeans. So, you'd think that Lexus would be doing rather well here, now wouldn't you? Well, think again.

It seems that luxury car buyers are interested in other qualities besides reliability, because while Lexus sales are higher than ever, they're still low enough to make the brand a rare sight on the roads here - unlike Merc, BMW and Audi which are everywhere. Pricing is not the issue here, and neither is advertising. Yet, there is something that makes most luxury car buyers go for the traditional brands. Maybe it's the looks - in my eyes Lexus is still struggling to come up with a design identity of its own, or perhaps it's the philosophy of building excellent machines that are missing that important ingredient - personality.

In my eyes, Lexus has produced exactly one desirable model during its existance, and that's the original GS300. Of course the car has aged now but back in the day I used to think the design was quite impressive. Of course, it was not an in-house job...

 

[Gene]

I would apreciate it if you didn't call me names again. I could also call idiot or retarded or stupid those who believe Lexus/Toyota propaganda like you or Gene but i don't intend to fall so low.

I fail to see why I have been drawn into this debate when I haven't even said anything in the thread.

I am not a Toyota/Lexus Lover/fanatic. I love cars for cars, I love what each car maker brings to the table to improve the industry. So don't think that I am Toyota/Lexus fanatic because I defended them. I defended them because it is a naive comment to simply say "they are crap". No offence Yannis, but look past the end of your nose.

I could careless if a car company doesn't have history and heritage. In terms of sales, Lexus have proved in the US market that buyers simply don't hold history and heritage in the same regard as you. Yes its a niceity, but there isn't any rule to say they can't be good car makers. Oh and what about car makers that do have heritage and history and have bombed? like rover.

Lexus have increased competition which has forced the BMW/Audi/Merc to lower their prices considerably. Without Lexus, the Germans simply could have astronomical prices in non-european countries like New Zealand. This has allowed us everyday people to drive these cars everyday. This is part of the reason why I have the utmost respect for Lexus.

This is not to offend you but to remind you Yannis: Remember back in the old GCF days where Brian (creator/owner of GCF) outwardly said that he didn't hold your posts in as high regard as others due to you bias towards Audi. And Brian is arguably the biggest german car fanatic. Now this wasn't to attack your character, but to say "Yannis, stop being so narrow-minded and look at the wider picture". Did you not learn anything from that post? If you don't remember this then don't worry, but I've been around a LONG time (as have you).

 

[SDNR]

Btw, TS, Pagani is an excellent example. It doesn't matter how many cars they sell. They came out of nowhere. Now they are world famous. DIfferent scale I guess, same idea.

I don't agree that Pagani is comparable with Lexus at all. Pagani is the product of inspiration, integrity, and one mans dream -- conceived with a single-minded ambition to create something unique and extraordinary, with an almost total disregard for the "realities" of the market. Lexus, on the other hand, is entirely the product of intensive market research, corporate-strategizing, and market reality....with the economic rewards for Toyota being the primary objective. Lexus is an excellent product ...but not a particularly inspired one.

To compare Pagani with Lexus, is to misunderstand both brands, and their intentions, greatly.

 

[Yperion]

This is not to offend you but to remind you Yannis: Remember back in the old GCF days where Brian (creator/owner of GCF) outwardly said that he didn't hold your posts in as high regard as others due to you bias towards Audi. And Brian is arguably the biggest german car fanatic. Now this wasn't to attack your character, but to say "Yannis, stop being so narrow-minded and look at the wider picture". Did you not learn anything from that post? If you don't remember this then don't worry, but I've been around a LONG time (as have you).

Funny that you mention Brian who closed our forum cause he was loosing money (at least that was the official excuse) and abandoned the whole "German Car Fans" idea by making the transvestite "World Car fans" site just to get more publicity and advertising money.
Of course i understand that he has to make money for a living from the site but at least i 'm an idealist (some may call me fanatic i don't care) who never made a single buck from the countless hours i preach about German superiority in this and every other forum i participated.

 

[warot]

Lexus could had never made a car like the A8 (or S class or 7 series) because making such a car is not a matter of effort or money spend. It's also about long standing tradition in excellence and heritage which they don't have.

This is my opinion, BUT, if you said that Audi had a long tradition of making luxury automobiles 15 years ago, people would have laughed at you. That was MB's job, while BMW's made sporty cars. Audi was just kind of in the middle. But now look at how successful they are. I just don't see why heritage is the biggest factor here, because I think engineering is far more important. And heritage and engineering are two seperate paths.

So ok, Lexus doesn't have as much prestige as the Germans, especially in the Sclass, A8 and 7 series category, but that takes time. This is exactly what happened to the Phaeton. Great car, no way in hell anyone would buy it (brand name). Lexus suffers the same problem in Europe.
You cannot sit here and tell me that the Phaeton was a mediocre car, as any Lexus.

 

[warot]

Funny that you mention Brian who closed our forum cause he was loosing money (at least that was the official excuse) and abandoned the whole "German Car Fans" idea by making the transvestite "World Car fans" site just to get more publicity and advertising money.
Of course i understand that he has to make money for a living from the site but at least i 'm an idealist (some may call me fanatic i don't care) who never made a single buck from the countless hours i preach about German superiority in this and every other forum i participated.

It's one thing to be making money, but it's a whole other thing to be LOSING money from a forum. I'm sorry, but I doubt that you would agree to spend the time and the money.

 

[Gene]

Funny that you mention Brian who closed our forum cause he was loosing money (at least that was the official excuse) and abandoned the whole "German Car Fans" idea by making the transvestite "World Car fans" site just to get more publicity and advertising money.
Of course i understand that he has to make money for a living from the site but at least i 'm an idealist (some may call me fanatic i don't care) who never made a single buck from the countless hours i preach about German superiority in this and every other forum i participated.

I think you should give a little respect here. Brian single-handedly created the spirit to the original GCF forum and its successors. Without the GCF forums this forum might not exist and a great number of people from this forum would not be part of it.

Secondly have you thought for a moment that Brian didn't actually 'sell-out' the German Car Fans brand to World Car Fans, because maybe, just maybe, he is a car-fanatic that likes ALL cars, and is not narrow-minded enough to think that German cars are the only cars on this planet. I myself consider Brian to be the biggest car fan of all of us here, since he has dedicated his career to developing and maintaining a website devoted to them. It is a well known fact he had another successful career that earned him the money to live comfortably, but he quit that to pursue the WCF website - now that is dedication. Of course I don't know what your career is, but can you tell me that your career is even in the automotive industry?

Futhermore do you honestly believe that the Germans are perfect in every aspect of car design? I for one would put up my hand to say that are definitely not. I would say they are among the best in the world. But I'm also the first person to tell you that the Japanese are better in manufacturing and the Italians are better at putting in the 'passion' factor, whatever that might be. Putting it one way, if you are so narrow-minded to think that Germans are always the best, then you simply don't know anything about cars.

 

[Yperion]

Putting it one way, if you are so narrow-minded to think that Germans are always the best, then you simply don't know anything about cars.

There is no such thing as "the best" in any aspect of our lives, at least objectively speaking but in every single segment there is at least one German car that comes as close as possible to being "the best" overall (for example 3 series or S class). Japanese cars have failed to achieve that.

BTW if i know something or anything about cars it's not for you to decide or anyone else. Generalization , insults and elitistic bahaviour just shows that you and Top Secret are in a diffucult position proving that you are right.

 

[warot]

There is no such thing as "the best" in any aspect of our lives, at least objectively speaking but in every single segment there is at least one German car that comes as close as possible to being "the best" overall (for example 3 series or S class). Japanese cars have failed to achieve that.

BTW if i know something or anything about cars it's not for you to decide or anyone else. Generalization , insults and elitistic bahaviour just shows that you and Top Secret are in a diffucult position proving that you are right.

I really don't think that Gene or TS are being unreasonable at all. They are Lexus fanboys like you call them and neither am I. I personally love German cars, but I am open to other cars as well.

This has gone way off topic. But speaking of 'generalization', this whole thing started off by you saying that the Volvo S80 is better than any Lexus/Toyota on page 1 without any reasonable proof. Actually look at any post on the first page...