Post-War Baby Benz Prototypes Query

[BMW 1000 Twin-Cam]

Apart from the information available online on the Mercedes-Benz W118/W119 project (due to being a precursor to the DKW F102 / Audi F103), am interested in knowing more about the Mercedes-Benz W122 project.

Cannot seem to find out what the likely specifications were for the W122 including proposed engines or dimensions had it reached production, am assuming the M121 petrol and OM621 diesel engines were the likely candidates (possibly with even smaller capacity versions along with potential carrying over the pre-war M136 petrol and OM636 diesels).

Going back to the W118/W119 project or more specifically the Mercedes-Benz M118 engine (that later evolved into the Volkswagen EA831 OHC), was it strictly conceived just as a (presumably all-new clean-sheet) 4-cylinder engine or was there further scope in the design for 5/6-cylinder or even dieselized versions?

Links
- https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2016/07/19/an-abbreviated-history-of-the-baby-benz-from-the-1940s-to-the-1960s/
- 1960 Mercedes-Benz W118/W119 project - compact Benz that never was

 

[BMW 1000 Twin-Cam]

Anyone?

What peaks my interest regarding the W122 project would be the potential of it using a smaller capacity version of the M121 petrol and OM621 diesel engines, which have read were reputedly derived from the M180 6-cylinder though it is not clarified if the petrol/diesel 4-cylinders were directly based the M180 6-cylinder or a design that carried over much of the M180/etc.

It also brought to mind an old thread from a while back on the Nissan L16 engine that Prince built under license before the Nissan takeover reputedly being derived from the Mercedes-Benz M180 6-cylinder, at least if the M121/OM621 were NOT directly derived from the M180 engine and thus opening up the possibility for a smaller M180-derived 4-cylinder to power a production version of the W122 project.

 

[Giannis]

Anyone?

What you are looking for is not common car-fan level of knowledge. Maybe @Wolfgang can help you with your quest.

Have you tried MB's press site archives?

 

[Matski]

Sounds like an interesting research project. Sadly, I'm not really familiar with what resources you can look to if it's not related to a BMW!

Going on what Giannis mentioned, the Daimler press site has the original info that the articles you linked to probably reference...

Mercedes-Benz Media

Exklusive Einblicke und individuelle Angebote: Erleben Sie mit Mercedes-Benz das Maximum aus digitaler Live-PR. Exclusive insights and individual offers: Experience the maximum of digital live PR with Mercedes-Benz.

media.daimler.com

I don't know if Daimler have anything akin to the BMW Group Archive that the public can access, but it looks like they may not.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

Some quite comprehensive information (German language):

W118, W119 und W122: Die Vorreiter des Baby-Benz:

W118, W119 und W122: Die Vorreiter des Baby-Benz - Mercedes-Seite

Heute spielen die Klein- und Kompaktwagen für alle Hersteller eine immense Rolle. Bei Mercedes-Benz gewinnen smart, A-, B- und C-Klasse eine immere größere Bedeutung und Beliebtheit. Für die Stuttgarter begann der Erfolg der Kompakten mit dem Start des "Hundertneunzigers", also der Baureihe...

mercedes-seite.de

 

[Matski]

W118, W119 und W122: Die Vorreiter des Baby-Benz:

Hmmm..

... requires a Jim Carey reaction GIF ...

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Hmmm..

... requires a Jim Carey reaction GIF ...

Interesting but it ain't pretty.

 

[BMW 1000 Twin-Cam]

What you are looking for is not common car-fan level of knowledge. Maybe @Wolfgang can help you with your quest.

Have you tried MB's press site archives?

Understand, if Wolfgang is unable to help will try and contact the press site to see whether they can provide answers.

Sounds like an interesting research project. Sadly, I'm not really familiar with what resources you can look to if it's not related to a BMW!

Going on what Giannis mentioned, the Daimler press site has the original info that the articles you linked to probably reference...

media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko.xhtml?oid=9361776&relId=1001&resultInfoTypeId=175#toRelation

I don't know if Daimler have anything akin to the BMW Group Archive that the public can access, but it looks like they may not.

Based on the post-war 1.2-litre 2-door 1940s project that preceded the W122 project, it would appear to suggest Mercedes were planning on powering the W122 with its existing 1.8-2-litre M121 4-cylinder engines (assuming they were based on the 2.2-2.3-litre M180 6-cylinder) yet it would not make sense for them to use the engines in a smaller model if they were already used in the W120/W121.

OTOH a direct 4-cylinder version of the 2.2-2.3-litre M180 6-cylinder would equate to a displacement of around 1.5-litres, unless the M121 4-cylinder could be reduced to around 1.5-litres or even 1.2-litres as was to be the case with the post-war 1.2-litre 2-door 1940s project (since the related 1.8-litre 6-cylinder eventually evolved into the 2.2-litre M180 engine).

 

[Matski]

@BMW 1000 Twin-Cam

Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on the options already. One of the articles you original posted talks about a flat 4 and laterly a "H" engine for the later developments. I know nothing of these options, but unless they had something similar in their portfolio at the time, perhaps they were planning an all new engine for these small cars all along? According to Wiki the M121 was used in some pretty wide-ranging applications, from SL to Unimog, I'd not rule out them using the engine in a compact car also...

... but I'm guessing. This is well out of my comfort zone!

 

[Giannis]

This is well out of my comfort zone!

Ah, but life begins at the end of your comfort zone!

 

[Matski]

Ah, but life begins at the end of your comfort zone!

Off topic, but as I'm packing up my house for a protracted move (thanks COVID-19), one thing I haven't put in a box yet is my very literal comfort zone... a dusty shelf in the corner of my old office that commemorates the love affair that made my twenties and early thirties interesting...

 

[Giannis]

Off topic, but as I'm packing up my house for a protracted move (thanks COVID-19), one thing I haven't put in a box yet is my very literal comfort zone... a dusty shelf in the corner of my old office that commemorates the love affair that made my twenties and early thirties interesting...

I was not expecting that. I was totally not expecting that.

BTW, the pic took ages to load (probably it's p0rn peak hour due to the quarantine, so internet is slow), so I took some guesses as to what your 20's love affair would be.

And on exactly the same sidenote, "Life begins at the end of your comfort zone" was the life moto of the girl that I spent half my twenties with. Surprisingly I survived that life moto in one piece.

 

[BMW 1000 Twin-Cam]

Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on the options already. One of the articles you original posted talks about a flat 4 and laterly a "H" engine for the later developments. I know nothing of these options, but unless they had something similar in their portfolio at the time, perhaps they were planning an all new engine for these small cars all along? According to Wiki the M121 was used in some pretty wide-ranging applications, from SL to Unimog, I'd not rule out them using the engine in a compact car also...

... but I'm guessing. This is well out of my comfort zone!

It is a limited conjecture drawn from the current information available so-far though depends how accurate it is to what Mercedes planned with the W122.

The possibility also exists they investigated other layouts from a 1.5-litre Flat-Four to what eventually became the M118 (later Volkswagen EA831) engine, however under the impression both seem to have been developed within the context that neither an M121/OM621 or another M180-derived 4-cylinder would fit into the FWD W118/W119 prototype (outside of a few FWD Nissan diesels AFAIK).

It is interesting to note Nissan managed to get quite a bit of mileage out of the M180-derived Prince-developed Nissan L engine, whose descendants would appear to include the Nissan Z/FJ/KA/NA 4-cylinder and Nissan RB/RD 6-cylinder engines.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

Off topic, but as I'm packing up my house for a protracted move (thanks COVID-19), one thing I...

Oh YEAH ! Leaves me embarking on one of those trips down Memory Lane. Student days in early-mid 1970s' Munich with a good number of U.S.-American friends and acquaintances. Southern Comfort was one of the beverages of choice at partys. Led Zeppelin and the Allman Brothers, hippie chicks and rock n' roll. A good number of beat-up old Pontons and Fintails too. It was far out, man.