Senna [Official] McLaren Senna (P15)

[Joelpeyeye]

But is faster in every circuit than Porsche GT2 RS

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Am I the only person that doesn’t think that the Senna is ugly?

Possibly....

Aesthetically, the Senna is very spec-sensitive. If done right, it looks good. If not, it's legit bad. With the Senna, there's very little middle ground where one stands on its appearance.

 

[Laurent T]

Auto Moto (France TV, TF1) tested it on their track. Went faster (1sec) than the previous record holder, the GT2RS. Auto Moto always does only two laps with the car to set a time - the test driver says he needed more to fully grasp the potential of the car. Below the 3 fatests laps of the track :
1. Senna : 1min24sec703
2. GT2RS : 1min25sec818
3. 720S : 1min27sec109

 

[WBarnes]

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[WBarnes]

Auto Moto (France TV, TF1) tested it on their track. Went faster (1sec) than the previous record holder, the GT2RS. Auto Moto always does only two laps with the car to set a time - the test driver says he needed more to fully grasp the potential of the car. Below the 3 fatests laps of the track :
1. Senna : 1min24sec703
2. GT2RS : 1min25sec818
3. 720S...

Which track is that?

 

[Laurent T]

Which track is that?

I think it is Mortefontaine in France, a track which is more representative of a country road than a pure race track.

 

[WBarnes]

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X8 WST registration plate. Alexander West's?

 

[manuelf]

I am uncertain, what to think about the 7s gap between the Senna and the 650 GT3 ...
Is it "only" 7s or "still/after all" 7s ...
I mean: The GT3 is so much lighter and has kind of aero, which could never be street legal and it had race slicks! So I tend towards "only" 7s on a 2+ minute lap ... it means, that the Senna is only 5% slower than an "all in" GT3 race car.

On the other hand this is at least a clear indicator, that the Valkyrie - even in street legal form - will wipe the floor with any GT3 class racing car

 

[Switar]

A Gt 3 cup car can lap Mugello circuit in 1.45, an impressive lap time, absolutely impossible for a streer car. 1.45 is today Marquez pole and record for motorcycles. Andrea Iannone with the fastest street bike on earth, Aprilia 1100 factory in perfect condition, lapped the track in about 1.55 (1.55.1 or 1.55.6, i don't remember). So the Senna lap time is really good

 

[WBarnes]

A Gt 3 cup car can lap Mugello circuit in 1.45, an impressive lap time, absolutely impossible for a streer car. 1.45 is today Marquez pole and record for motorcycles. Andrea Iannone with the fastest street bike on earth, Aprilia 1100 factory in perfect condition, lapped the track in about 1.55 (1.55.1 or 1.55.6, i don't remember). So the Senna lap time...

And another perspective is that the 650S GT3 is also faster than a P1 GTR, which is significantly faster than a P1 (by about 4s on a 1 minute track - Anglesey Coastal). So 7s on a 2 minute track.

More perspective.

Hungaroring:
650S GT3 (Alexander West) - 1:45
650S GT3 (Fastest pro in 2017 GT Open) - 1:42
BAC MONO (Oliver Webb) - 1:54
488 GTB (Csaba Mor) - 2:05

 

[M.N.D]

I am uncertain, what to think about the 7s gap between the Senna and the 650 GT3 ...
Is it "only" 7s or "still/after all" 7s ...
I mean: The GT3 is so much lighter and has kind of aero, which could never be street legal and it had race slicks! So I tend towards "only" 7s on a 2+ minute lap ... it means, that the Senna is only 5% slower than an "all in" GT3 race car.

I remember at the beginning or this thread there was talks about the Senna being as fast as GT3 cars and I did some posts regarding that, so I'd like to chime in on some points. I may seem biased towards racing cars,but I don't buy the idea that a road car can be compared to a race car based on just track numbers, because there are many facts that have to be considered.

I'm not going to focus much the lap times since both have been set by Chris Harris, but just like @Switar mentioned, a GT3 car can lap Mugello in around 1:50 give or take. Also, as seen in @WBarnes post, a pro class driver can extract more time from the race car, where Chris Harris races in the Am class.

A GT3 car has its limitations in power delivery, acceleration and top speed if you want to compare them to the Senna.

Usually, GT3 cars have their top speed around 270~280 Km/h (on long straights) due to the gearing and the aero limitations (downforce is supposed to reach 650 KG around 200 Km/h, and it'll be higher the faster you go, if we can use raw numbers alone, because there is more to that than just numbers). Also, the 650S GT3 is known, along with the 488 GT3, to have a more aggressive aero package compared to the rest of the competing cars in the class.

Power to weight ratio of GT3 cars are usually around 400+ HP, while the Senna, on the other hand, has around 650 HP (a 250~300 HP advantage), in addition to a faster shifting transmission with an additional gear and a DRS which helps increasing top speed on straights. Regarding weight, GT3 cars usually weigh between 1230 (911 GT3 R, 488 GT3, 650S) to 1350 Kg (BMW and Bentley), the Senna is supposed to be around 30 to 50 Kg heavier, but with a much higher power advantage.

The main strong card of race cars are the tyres, which are the more important part in providing the mechanical grip (in addition to the suspension system) which is more effective at low to medium speeds (of course, in combination with the aero grip). This allows for later braking and a higher entry / exit speed to keep momentum.

However, even racing slicks are not the same. Michelin tyres provide better grip than Pirelli which can results in a better lap time. I didn't pay attention to the slicks brand of the car in the video, but I'm assuming they're the Pirelli ones because Chris usually races in Blancpain GT, which is sponsored by Pirelli, so if Michelin tyres were being used, you can at least subtract about 1~1.5 seconds.

Another thing has to be considered is the layout of the track. Here is a picture of the track with trap speed records of Moto GP Yamaha.

I won't compare the speed trap data because these are for amotorcycle, but it's possible to see that there are some points where power is needed for a higher speed. This is where the Senna will have a good advantage with its higher power and its DRS. There are some tracks where the difference could be higher than the 5% seen here, while other tracks may have a smaller gap.

More important than just raw lap time numbers is the actual gap on the circuit itself. A 7 seconds difference in the case of the video comparison means that after 18 laps, the GT3 will lap the Senna. That is, if the senna is able to keep a consistent lap time. GT3 cars can keep on lapping for 24 hours, not with the same consistency, but part of having longer laps over the course of the race is because of the drivers' fatigue. That's why it's called endurance racing.

I'm not a racing expert, but I'm a big fan of GT and Touring racing, and I've been following GT3 racing for quite some time, so while I have modest knowledge, there could be some holes in my post.

 

[WBarnes]

I remember at the beginning or this thread there was talks about the Senna being as fast as GT3 cars and I did some posts regarding that, so I'd like to chime in on some points. I may seem biased towards racing cars,but I don't buy the idea that a road car can be compared to a race car based on just track numbers, because there are many facts that have t...

The fastest pro lap in 2018 with a 650S GT3 was 1:58.687. It's impossible to be as fast as a race car without slicks. The suspension setup in a race car is also tweaked specifically for a track and would likely kill a non-racing driver. Not sure whether the gearing is also adjustable in GT racing but it's nevertheless more track biased - no 210+mph top speeds.

 

[M.N.D]

The fastest pro lap in 2018 with a 650S GT3 was 1:58.687.

On what track was that, and in which class? As far as I can remember, no pro teams used the 650S in 2018, unless I've missed something...

The suspension setup in a race car is also tweaked specifically for a track and would likely kill a non-racing driver.

That is right, but for GT3, especially in competition eacing, it's usually more restricted to few elements to keep things more balanced, taking in consideration the Am class drivers (a personal guess, so could be inaccurate).

Not sure whether the gearing is also adjustable in GT racing but it's nevertheless more track biased - no 210+mph top speeds.

GT3 cars are adjustable, but not everything is allowed to be done as such because there is the Balance of Performance (BoP) set that defines how each car will be adjusted during the race. Regarding the gearing, I'm not sure if the ratios are allowed to be tuned, but for the top speed, the fastest top speed of a GT3 car I've seen is on the Dottinger Hohe of the Nurburgring where cars were able to barely hit 280 Km/h.

 

[WBarnes]

On what track was that, and in which class? As far as I can remember, no pro teams used the 650S in 2018, unless I've missed something...

Silverstone in 2017.
Results - GT Open

That is right, but for GT3, especially in competition eacing, it's usually more restricted to few elements to keep things more balanced, taking in consideration the Am class drivers (a personal guess, so could be in...

The amateur class drivers don't really need mollycoddling that much. Sure, they're slightly slower but they're well used to these vehicles and often own them personally.

GT3 cars are adjustable, but not everything is allowed to be done as such because there is the Balance of Performance (BoP) set that defines how each car will be adjusted during the race. Regarding the gearing, I'm not sure if the ratios are allowed to be tuned, but for the top speed, the fastest top speed of a GT3 car I've seen is on the Dottinger Hohe of the Nurburgring where cars were able to barely hit 280 Km/h.

And that short gearing will make the car faster accelerating relative to the power-to-weight, then you have the full-on racing brakes, and the de-cat racing exhaust system, which will virtually eliminate lag. But the main deal is of course the tyres. The Viper ACR MkV showed how a set of tyres can knock 4-5s off the lap time of the MkIV at Laguna, and the 650S GT3 has full-on slicks

On Blyton Park it ran 55s, which is 5s faster than a Radical RXC Turbo even on a sub-minute lap.

 

[manuelf]

So - with the same set of slicks the Senna would be on 650GT3 level ... but driveability must be a nightmare then, since Sennas ABS and traction control is nowhere adapted to this level of grip.

 

[Joelpeyeye]

Mclaren Senna in Silverstone with another configuración

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[M.N.D]

Silverstone in 2017.
Results - GT Open

I was suspecting that it's GT Open. I enjoy watching this series even though their livestream is not the best, and this year the grid is weak compared to last year. I like their time handicap trick, and their lap times are faster compared to Blancpain GT series due to having Michelin tyres and their less strict BoP.

The amateur class drivers don't really need mollycoddling that much. Sure, they're slightly slower but they're well used to these vehicles and often own them personally.

Good point, and I have to agree with you regarding the Am class. I have to say though that it's not the most interesting class to me, but sometimes there are good racing.

And that short gearing will make the car faster accelerating relative to the power-to-weight, then you have the full-on racing brakes, and the de-cat racing exhaust system, which will virtually eliminate lag. But the main deal is of course the tyres. The Viper ACR MkV showed how a set of tyres can knock 4-5s off the lap time of the MkIV at Laguna, and the 650S GT3 has full-on slicks

Correct. The shorter gearing will improve acceleration, but compared to the Senna, the faster shifting dual clutch and the almost 300 HP advantage will eliminate every advantage the GT3 car will be able to have. Moreover, the aero pakage will reduce some of the acceleration performance that the car have. If I'm not mistaken, a GT3 car has a 0-60 performance of 3.5~4.0 seconds, depending on the traction control level being used.

Just like you said and what I mentioned, it's the tyres that provide the performance. Endurance racing requires performance to be consistent as much as being quick, which is why I like the formula.

Good points @WBarnes I enjoy talking about racing stuff!

 

[M.N.D]

So - with the same set of slicks the Senna would be on 650GT3 level ... but driveability must be a nightmare then, since Sennas ABS and traction control is nowhere adapted to this level of grip.

Yes, it would narrow the gap, or maybe even as quick if other elements were added to the car (more weight reduction, cat-less racing exhaust) but racing is not about a single lap just to see how quick a car can go. That is qualifying, which has to be followed by a race, unless the qualifying is the race, or it's drag racing.

That's why I don't care about lap times of road cars. I don't see the point that this particular car is faster than that particular car on that particular track because there are so many factors that would change the lap time, mainly the driver's skills. A skilled driver can lap Hockenheim in a Golf GTI than a non skilled driver in an M5, and moreover, there is no trophy being handed to the fastest car other than what the magazines give in their performance shootouts. It's a performance measurement, but it's highly subjected to many factors to be taken seriously. I even suspect that car magazines try to hinder the performance of some cars or to optimize of other ones to give a better image of the car they prefer.

The Valkyrie you've mentioned earlier can be quicker than GT3 cars - after all they are based on road going models - but the Valkyrie is a purpose built prototype, and the car is not going to see any racing, so it's more of an exercise, which I kind of like.

 

[Switar]

Le Mans Bugatti 1.38.5. Wow. 2016 Porsche GT 3 cup was 1.39.0

 

[mihc]

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