Lexus beaten by Porsche in JD Power survey

[wltsm]

Thanks for the link EniLab, great read!

A few years ago Hummer and MINI protested because their vehicles received low IQS scores because of poor fuel economy and awful cupholders, respectively.

This part really worries me, I can understand the Hummer loosing marks for poor fuel economy, but the Mini lost marks because of the cupholders, that's just insane! When will those Americans learn cupholders aren't the most important thing in a cars interior! (no offence Americans)

 

[BKK-ES]

I've noticed several topics for a long time and this is what I found:

When the results are what we've expected, we say it is good, reliable, expert, absolutely correct, superb, etc.
When the results are NOT what we've expect, we say it is poor, rubbish, non-sense, non-reliable, insane, etc.

I don't say those are wrong. It is normal since we are human.

 

[EnI]

I've noticed several topics for a long time and this is what I found:

When the results are what we've expected, we say it is good, reliable, expert, absolutely correct, superb, etc.
When the results are NOT what we've expect, we say it is poor, rubbish, non-sense, non-reliable, insane, etc.

I don't say those are wrong. It is normal since we are human.

The problem is this time - for the first time - IQS includes "design quality" category, and nobody knows what this is - what "design qualities" exactly includes.

As said before - could it be this?: if you are irritated by steering wheel thickness and make a complaint this will hurt a brand position on IQS chart. Or: you get central controller (e.g. iDrive, Command, MMI) instead of numerous buttons - and you are not used to it - click! - you make a complaint.

This has nothing to do with reliability or quality issues.

That's the problem - the survey is called Initial Quality Study. What's next? Intangible brand name quality?

 

[Yperion]

Last year Hyundai managed to climb nearly to the top of JD Power survey just by adding many full size cupholders to their cars. I think that says it all about those surveys.

 

[Deutsch]

The problem is this time - for the first time - IQS includes "design quality" category, and nobody knows what this is - what "design qualities" exactly includes.

As said before - could it be this?: if you are irritated by steering wheel thickness and make a complaint this will hurt a brand position on IQS chart. Or: you get central controller (e.g. iDrive, Command, MMI) instead of numerous buttons - and you are not used to it - click! - you make a complaint.

This has nothing to do with reliability or quality issues.

That's the problem - the survey is called Initial Quality Study. What's next? Intangible brand name quality?

I just talked to one of the big guys here at work today about his participation in the J.D. Powers IQS study survey a year ago, and he said it's a lot of trivial stuff. "Design Quality" is more like ergonomics, how easy are the cars tech features to use? Stupid stuff really, there's no real reason why BMW (for instance) should be below the industry average.

 

[BKK-ES]

The problem is this time - for the first time - IQS includes "design quality" category, and nobody knows what this is - what "design qualities" exactly includes.

As said before - could it be this?: if you are irritated by steering wheel thickness and make a complaint this will hurt a brand position on IQS chart. Or: you get central controller (e.g. iDrive, Command, MMI) instead of numerous buttons - and you are not used to it - click! - you make a complaint.

This has nothing to do with reliability or quality issues.

That's the problem - the survey is called Initial Quality Study. What's next? Intangible brand name quality?

Exactly. I agree with you. But let's go back to the basic of JD power. It is to measure customer satisfaction. If I-DRIVE make less satisfaction for customers, what is the point of it. The fact is not only people in is board use I-DRIVE. We are car crazy. No matter what BMW (for example) invent, we can adapt to it. But think about others. They don't have any knowledge about cars. What they have is money. So cars should adapt to user. If most customers don't want i-drive, command or whatever, don't use it. It is that easy. (Sorry for may bad english)

 

[cawimmer430]

I'm starting to wonder 'what this whole JD Power' stuff is all about. The last I recall, Porsche was nowhere near the top, and now they're #1? How does one increase one's position so quickly? Quality improvements take years to show up.

Know what I think? I think Porsche paid JD Powers more $$$ than Lexus for once.

 

[EnI]

Exactly. I agree with you. But let's go back to the basic of JD power. It is to measure customer satisfaction. If I-DRIVE make less satisfaction for customers, what is the point of it. The fact is not only people in is board use I-DRIVE. We are car crazy. No matter what BMW (for example) invent, we can adapt to it. But think about others. They don't have any knowledge about cars. What they have is money. So cars should adapt to user. If most customers don't want i-drive, command or whatever, don't use it. It is that easy. (Sorry for may bad english)

A progress has to be made. If a 65-year "stupid white man" or a 25-year "I'm the centre of the world babe" can't use the new system - bad for them. They can stick with their ancient tech.

Cars electronics has progressed heavily in the latest times: you can adjust countless settings in your car. Imagine how many buttons will be needed for so many functions. There is much more than just HVAC, Nav & Hi-Fi. The cockipt would look like Boing 747's cockpit. The central controller knobs are natural progression.

Also: the JDP study is called: "Initial Quality Study".
Not "Initial Satisfaction Study" - like it should be to reflect a real matter of the study.

ISQ includes so many parameters that nobody knows anymore why some cars / brands are positioned so high / low.

You can not find out which car is most reliable, which has the most usable cup-holders, and which one has enough buttons to please the users.

So the ranking becomes pointless.

 

[cawimmer430]

Thanks for the link EniLab, great read!



This part really worries me, I can understand the Hummer loosing marks for poor fuel economy, but the Mini lost marks because of the cupholders, that's just insane! When will those Americans learn cupholders aren't the most important thing in a cars interior! (no offence Americans)

Even worse, only a total IDIOT would buy a Hummer H2 and wonder why the gas mileage sucks.

And the fact that JD Powers publishes such results as "poor quality" makes me question the reliability of their surveys.

 

[Centurion]

Even worse, only a total IDIOT would buy a Hummer H2 and wonder why the gas mileage sucks.

I'm an in closet H2 fan and would love to own one.

 

[Snake Vargas]

I'm an in closet H2 fan and would love to own one.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself Luw j/k.. LOL

---

Anyhow, that's an interesting point that BKK makes. Ok, let's forget that the study is a little misleadlingly named; and secondly that it really would be a lot more useful if they separated all the different things measured into their own lists.

If things aren't making life better for whichever buyers of whichever car, then isn't that a completely valid thing to measure? Not everyone likes to fiddle with every single setting in the car. Some people just want things to be accessible. If they say that iDrive or whatever is bad design, then isn't that their right?

I wouldn't expect my own dad to learn how to use it. Please don't tell me my dad is some stupid idiot (not that I'm saying you did, EniLab - he's not 65 and he's not white, and we don't own a BMW ). It's just something that doesn't come easily to older people, and they have the right to say that if they want. BMW should have made it more user friendly in whatever way, if they were concerned at all about satisfaction.

As for cupholders, if they're not up to standard, then what's wrong with complaining about it? Some people just like to have drinks when they're in the car. Gridlocked city traffic could be made that little more bearable. If you can't put your favourite drink in there, go ahead and complain. They're just being picky about different aspects of a car to what car enthusiasts are picky about.

IMO the only proviso should be that they separate the results and describe them accordingly.

 

[Merc1]

Saw the full report on MBWorld.org:

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June 8, 2006

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• J.D. POWER SURVEY: Hyundai leapfrogs Toyota in quality
Overall quality
The number of quality problems reported by buyers of new cars and trucks continues to fall. PP100 % change
1998 176
1999 167 9.00 5.11%
2000 154 13.00 7.78%
2001 147 7.00 4.55%
2002 133 14.00 9.52%
2003 133 0.00 0.00%
2004 119 14.00 10.53%
2005 118 1.00 0.84%
2006 109 9.44 8.00%


Pickup quality
Pickups remain one of the last strongholds for Detroit automakers. General Motors Corp. trucks ruled the roost on quality, followed closely by Toyota.


Pickup truck PP100
Chevrolet Silverado LD 98
Chevrolet Silverado HD/GMC Sierra HD (tie) 101
Toyota Tundra 103
GMC Sierra LD 104
Ford F-150 107
Dodge Ram LD 117
Pickup average 118
Ford F250/350 127
Chevrolet Avalanche 132
Nissan Titan 145
Dodge Ram HD 147

Design defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100
1 Porsche 35
2 Hyundai 41
3 GMC 43
4 Jaguar 44
5 Lexus 45
6 Nissan 45
7 Honda 46
8 Toyota 47
9 Chevrolet 49
10 Lincoln 50
11 Ford 50
12 Acura 51
13 Dodge 51
14 Mitsubishi 51
15 Infiniti 52
16 Industry Average 52
17 Saturn 54
18 Pontiac 55
19 Mercury 56
20 Jeep 56
21 Cadillac 57
22 Kia 58
23 Chrysler 59
24 Volvo 61
25 Audi 62
26 Scion 62
27 Saab 63
28 Mazda 64
29 Suzuki 66
30 Buick 68
31 Mercedes 68
32 Subaru 69
33 Isuzu 70
34 VW 73
35 Mini 77
36 Hummer 80
37 BMW 82
38 Land Rover 89


Manufacturing defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100
1 Lexus 42
2 Porsche 49
3 Toyota 52
4 BMW 52
5 Hyundai 53
6 Chrysler 53
7 Cadillac 54
8 Buick 55
9 Honda 57
10 Infiniti 57
11 Jaguar 59
12 Audi 60
13 Acura 63
14 Lincoln 63
15 Industry Average 64
16 Volvo 64
17 Mercury 65
18 Mercedes 65
19 Mini 65
20 Subaru 67
21 Chevrolet 69
22 Ford 69
23 GMC 70
24 Nissan 70
25 Saturn 70
26 Pontiac 70
27 Scion 71
28 Dodge 72
29 Kia 72
30 Mitsubishi 78
31 Mazda 79
32 Hummer 79
33 Jeep 87
34 VW 87
35 Saab 91
36 Suzuki 93
37 Land Rover 106
38 Isuzu 110


2006 Nameplate rankings
Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100
1 Porsche 91
2 Lexus 93
3 Hyundai 102
4 Toyota 106
5 Jaguar 109
6 Honda 110
7 Cadillac 117
8 Infiniti 117
9 GMC 119
10 Acura 120
11 Chrysler 120
12 Lincoln 121
13 Nissan 121
14 Chevrolet 124
15 Industry Average 124
16 Ford 127
17 Mercury 129
18 Saturn 129
19 Audi 130
20 Dodge 132
21 Pontiac 133
22 Volvo 133
23 Buick 134
24 Mitsubishi 135
25 Kia 136
26 Mercedes 139
27 Scion 140
28 BMW 142
29 Subaru 146
30 Mazda 150
31 Mini 150
32 Jeep 153
33 Saab 163
34 Suzuki 169
35 Hummer 171
36 VW 171
37 Isuzu 191
38 Land Rover 204

Look at the differences between the different breakouts, particularly with BMW. BMW got killed because of idrive I suspect.

M