Is Rolls-Royce British or German now?

[SDNR]

Not that intersting really ...but I'll post it anyway. It is a few years old.

After reading Ihno's post about the RR P DHC a few minutes ago, I remembered I was going to post this article but never got around to it.

It is copyrighted so I will post the link

Goethe-Institut About the Car - Auto Design

 

[SDNR]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

I guess what made me think was the idea that Rolls-Royce is perceived as a German brand now -- do you see it this way?

I guess I do.

The funny thing is, I still think of Bentley as British ...but Rolls' seem German -- why is this?

What do you think?

 

[Choleric]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

The funny thing is, I still think of Bentley as British ...but Rolls' seem German -- why is this?

Design?

New RR designs seem more German and modern to me, wheras Bentley has been following their tradition with new vehicles, example: the Brooklands.

Anyway I feel the same as you Rob.

 

[SDNR]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

^ Hey Great (Jeff's here ) Please can you change the title of the thread to Is Rolls-Royce British or German now? -- I think that is what I was trying to get at with this thread ....din't make it very clear.

^Design you say Jeff,

Yes, I would agree that is partly it -- although it very much looks like a Rolls. I've always been bugged by the Phantom in some ways, it looks like a Rolls, and certainly has the presence -- but I still find myself having to think about it a lot to convince myself that this is a 'real' Rolls. Its not that I think of it as a BMW, because BMW's DNA has been kept as far away from it as possible, but it still does have a distinctly un-British character about it ....and I'm not talking about the fact that finally, after several decades of, at times, dubious quality, The Spirit Of Ecstasy proudly stands at the front of a reliable and well-built machine.

 

[Sunny]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

I think it has to a certain extend to do with the perception that anything British has to look archaic and not modern (another case in point the new Jag S type, which many, including myself consider not to be "British").

May be (and just may be), it will work the other way around, and Rolls and now Jaguar discarding the old school looks and going modern will bootstrap people's perception of what is "British" and bring it to the correct century.

 

[SDNR]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

Hmm, that is an interesting observation Sunny -- you might have a point there.

Funny thing is though, I still think the Mini feels British -- I guess it is all down to personal perceptions.

It really wouldn't matter much - except that "Britishness" (whatever that is) has long been part of the whole Rolls-Royce myth.

Rolls-Royce is not just another car brand (even if in reality that is precisely what it is); It is intrinsically entrenched in our popular culture as the world's most famous symbol of power and wealth; But there are a litany of other metaphysical associations attached to it also (both positive and negative) -- I struggle to think of many other trademarks in the world that are so universally evocative on so many levels.

 

[SDNR]

Re: Quite an intersting article about Rolls-Royce's recent history

^ I just re-read that post .......God I can sound like a pretentious git sometimes -- sorry about that guys ...I'll try to keep myself under control








....and thanks to the SM who changed the title as I requested ...I appreciate that

 

[klier]

If RR is German (fine by me), then Lamborghini is German too. Jaguar is freaking Indian, then.

 

[Centurion]

Ok, here is my take on the matter.

Mini: The Brits love it, the car is everywhere here and BMW has done a great job preserving the Mini spirit while enhancing the car by offering various customizations options.

Verdict: British!

Aston Martin: Although their cars have the same keys are Volvos and share knobs as well, the sexy but yet reserved design is typically British. When I see an Aston the Ford name rarely pop up in my head.

Verdict: British!

Bentley: This one is a difficult one. As many of you know I'm a hardcore Arnage and Brookland fans. It really doesn't get more British than those two. But the CGT and Flyingspur ooze of Deutch mass production. One aspect of the car I don't like is that the interior layout is straight out of the Phaeton, it's all not very bespoke and the same goes for the slightly bloated exterior. The car's weren't conceived with 100% passion which is typical of British luxury companies. Heritage and traditions should go before profit. Let's pray that Bentley don't ruin it with the new Arnage

Verdict: Half British, half German.

Rolls-Royce: This is a tricky one, what's obvious though is that all shots are called from Munich. Although it share some components with the 7er there are absolutely no visible traces of BMW in the car which is fantastic.

What bothers me is the styling which is a bit German with it's flat surfaces with very little or no details. That is why the car, unlike the Arnage, doesn't look exquisite from the outside. Further more I don't think the current Phantom will be a model to behold in the future. It's just a bit too trendy and slightly glitzy rather than timeless and classy. When a new model comes along the current Phantom will look dated which isn't common for many British cars will still shine years after they have been replaced.

Verdict: German

 

[SDNR]

If RR is German (fine by me), then Lamborghini is German too. Jaguar is freaking Indian, then.

I have often thought Lambo has lost a lot of its "Italianess" ....but it is technically better than ever!

I don't have a problem with Germans -- my own Grandmother was German! -- and I love German cars. It is all just an observation

Jaguar klier? ha ha, Jaguar is like an Indian Lexus

 

[coolraoul]

I think Sunny got the point: a British car has to feel out of time, even outdated and archaic.

Or, if not, it has to be lovely and cute like the Mini.

Or, like a Roadster, it...

Well, honestly, what a British car needs to appear really British, is charisma, soul, personality. It has to be different, it has to be unique, it has to be...impossible not to love.

The Arnage/Brooklands are truly British, the frogs aren't. The Mini is quite British, too. The new Jaguar SF isn't, whereas the XJ and XK still are.

The Rolls... for me, isn't. They made a confusion between charisma, soul, and brashness, size, chrome. The Rolls has a lot of presence, but no charisma. And I saw some of them IRL, I'm not talking about the pics here.

It's big, impressive, but surprisingly...uninspiring. Almost flat, once you're accoutumes to its size and grille.

For me a British car has a soul. It's not perfect technicallywise, but it's part of the charm too.

However, the German technicity is now everywhere and every single carmaker (even Ferrari) is now aiming at becoming German. I only see Aston Martin as an exception, but with Tata and a cooperation with Mercedes-Benz, it won't last long...

It's globalization, but this time the British and Americans have lost ground.

 

[Tarek]

However, the German technicity is now everywhere and every single carmaker (even Ferrari) is now aiming at becoming German.

Care to explain this to me?

 

[SDNR]

I agree with much of what you said there Amaury,

But not all British cars have charisma and personality -- in the last quarter of last century, the Brits built some of the worst rubbish ever conceived this side of the Berlin wall.

I think good British cars are like good French and Italian cars, they have passion and culture ....and also sometimes border on being irrational. The Germans are always (well maybe not always) so practical and sensible

 

[coolraoul]

Care to explain this to me?

Well... A Ferrari used to be 3 elements: A fabulous motor with a crazy noise, a wonderfully balanced chassis, and a marvelous shape on it.
The rest of the car was not as important. As a result it was crap. But nobody cared.

Now, you have... an interior that wants to be finished like a German one (still not the case, but in progress), a whole lot of various electronics and fancy equipments, a clever gearbox (but they forgot that a REAL Ferrari has a REAL alu-grille with a gorgeous level and not a ridiculous small piece of nothing to engage reverse), more electronic aids than in an E-Class...

Oh yes, it also has a motor and a chassis. And a .... shape on it. Not nearly as beautiful and evident as before, but a complex technic-induced aerodynamic shape. In fact, the Form-follow-function (which is... Porsche, not Ferrari, normally).

So Ferrari has been Germanized. For me, at last. It's becoming digital and electronic.

 

[SDNR]

^ The Italians are great -- I love them. They often start off all enthusiastic, go nuts with the engineering ...get obsessed with the smallest details -- things like the appearance of doorhandles and tail lights often seem to be of much more vital importance to them than such mundane things as ergonomics or visibility.

Build quality and reliability has always been the big problem with Italian cars -- unless they are truly loved and cared for they tend to disintegrate relatively quickly -- anybody seen a Fiat Uno in a while -- NO! -- why? -- because they all fell apart years ago!

 

[Tarek]

Well... A Ferrari used to be 3 elements: A fabulous motor with a crazy noise, a wonderfully balanced chassis, and a marvelous shape on it.
The rest of the car was not as important. As a result it was crap. But nobody cared.

Now, you have... an interior that wants to be finished like a German one (still not the case, but in progress), a whole lot of various electronics and fancy equipments, a clever gearbox (but they forgot that a REAL Ferrari has a REAL alu-grille with a gorgeous level and not a ridiculous small piece of nothing to engage reverse), more electronic aids than in an E-Class...

Oh yes, it also has a motor and a chassis. And a .... shape on it. Not nearly as beautiful and evident as before, but a complex technic-induced aerodynamic shape. In fact, the Form-follow-function (which is... Porsche, not Ferrari, normally).

So Ferrari has been Germanized. For me, at last. It's becoming digital and electronic.

That is called progress! do u want them to be incident compared to other cars? plus those F1 fast gearboxes,suspension tech and engines are coming straight from their F1 expertise.No one out there transfers F1 to road cars like Ferrari and i think we as car fanatics should give'em huge credit for that.i'm also surprised to see u complaining about Ferrari's F1 transmission aren't u the one who is complaining about MB's old auto in their AMGs?

As for form-follows function,what makes u say it's Porsche exclusive and any other brand applies then it becomes germanized? Ferrari since ever used to design their cars with aerodynamics priority number one in mind

 

[SDNR]

No one out there transfers F1 to road cars like Ferrari and i think we as car fanatics should give'em huge credit for that.

I Totally agree with this Tarek ....you are absolutely right

Ferrari since ever used to design their cars with aerodynamics priority number one in mind

Yep ...this is true (to a degree). But I think it is fair to say that, in the past, the Germans have taken an even more scientific approach to aerodynamics.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

But Ferrari's electronics come from Formula 1.

Ferrari was behind in many ares and by the late 1980s they begun to bring foreigners to catch up and/or surpass the rest in terms of electronics, aerodynamics and materials. Enzo Ferrari was even more radical as he wanted to move the Scuderia to Britain.

Ferrari were the ones who in in F1 in 1989 introduced the semi-automatic paddle shifted gearbox; then in 1990 they have also introduced Traction Control-Launch Control (Ferrari created the first TC-LC system not Williams nor Volvo nor McLaren, contrary to popular beliefs) and active dampers/semi-active suspensions.

It's a clear case of improving-the-breed/technological-progress/relevancy.

 

[coolraoul]

I know all this. But for me, Ferrari has lost some of its appeal, it's not that pure any more. I don't like their new in-home design very much, and the fact that chips have so much importance is not really a progress in my eyes.

The F1 gearbox is, for me, far less appealing than the classic Ferrari-grille (that you now see more often in Lamborghinis...). Where is the 'Ting' when you engage the gear, the superb grille and gearlevel?

Today's Ferraris are less focused on the driving experience than before. They want to be driven everyday, to have a luggage space, to have a 11-motors power-seat, an automatized gearbox, a seatbelt warning and a big glovebox...

And before, a Ferrari was not really about Form-following-function. It was more Form-following-passion.

However, that's only my opinion. And I never drove a Ferrari, old or new. Only saw and hear them, and I prefer the older models (F355...what a noise!!)

 

[Tarek]

I know all this. But for me, Ferrari has lost some of its appeal, it's not that pure any more. I don't like their new in-home design very much, and the fact that chips have so much importance is not really a progress in my eyes.

The F1 gearbox is, for me, far less appealing than the classic Ferrari-grille (that you now see more often in Lamborghinis...). Where is the 'Ting' when you engage the gear, the superb grille and gearlevel?

Today's Ferraris are less focused on the driving experience than before. They want to be driven everyday, to have a luggage space, to have a 11-motors power-seat, an automatized gearbox, a seatbelt warning and a big glovebox...

And before, a Ferrari was not really about Form-following-function. It was more Form-following-passion.

However, that's only my opinion. And I never drove a Ferrari, old or new. Only saw and hear them, and I prefer the older models (F355...what a noise!!)

Well lets keep Lambo out of this coz it's been germanized to the bone

I'm actually so glad that Ferraris now are more usable than before,it means if u are rich enough to get one,u r able to enjoy it everyday not just the weekends.plus they are the only brand out there that keeping their tradition without having to produce SUVs or wagons to keep their company independent..that alone earns them immense respect