Is BMW becoming too soft?

[Sunny]

Eni, don't get your undies in a knot. I am an enthusiast, my pov is that of one. I am not running BMW, I don't have to be encumbered by such trivial things as financial resources or market research.

But I think your last line, pretty much makes my point for me... before BMW was something special, now it is just a regular company - for better or for worse.

 

[EnI]

EnI, was this process always the case within the confines of BMW or was it really due to having their hands' tied from the Rover fallout?

I understand that finances, or lack thereof, will always constrain ideals. And there's always going to be input and disagreements between the various factions, but my assessment of BMW relative to other car companies is that the engineers have a significant say with what's put in the car. And especially within the M-sport division, there's even more emphasis from the engineers.

It's more or less daily battle - since they are aware the finacial resources are rather limited, and should be spent wisely & carefully. Something they have learned from Rover fiasco.

Perhaps today the contrasts within this battle are less emphasized. Today everyone is much more aware of the situation, and they work like crazy to satisfy each other. Financials trying to get more money, engineers trying to find better solutions, designers being more understanding toward engineers, marketers trying to find perfect ways as well - also via promotion, advertising, PR. To communicate a product that is not exactly what customers asked for (still not comfy & roomy enough etc .. not sporty enough etc).

And, yes, M engineers are still at the top. But they had to deal with the product the get. With the core architecture & design. But they certainly squeeze best from every car - within the marketing limits of course.

Eg. X6M & X5M were set much more aggressively (as were the regular X6, new 7er etc): being more dynamic to drive. But the marketing guys demanded the cars to be toned down. Same case happened to eg. Audi A5.

Also while cars have become more and more complex due to more features requiring more electronic componentry, engineering precision will always be required and needed.

They sure are THE core of the company. Without engineers there is no product! Marketers then have nothing to sell, and designers just ended up with drawing sketches & sculpturing clay models. And even in design there are engineers: CAx designers are more of engineers to me than being designers.

I don't have to be encumbered by such trivial things as financial resources or market research.

Isn't that a bit ignorant to say? IMO everybody - every single customer has to know the limitations, and act responsibly. A behavior "I want it, and I don't care what it takes, just give it to me already" sounds a bit childish to me.

But I think your last line, pretty much makes my point for me... before BMW was something special, now it is just a regular company - for better or for worse.

Was it really, or were you just tricked by brilliant BMW propaganda, and lack of worthy rivals? nobody can be special forever - when others start to imitate it. BMW trashed Alfa romeo when started imitating its formula, and Alfa wasn't able to follow anymore.

 

[Sunny]

Isn't that a bit ignorant to say? IMO everybody - every single customer has to know the limitations, and act responsibly. A behavior "I want it, and I don't care what it takes, just give it to me already" sounds a bit childish to me.

Wait, I thought you just said customer was the king?

Anyway let us see how this goes -

Non-childish customer to BMW sales guy: hey, I would love a light sporty car, have any?
BMW sales guys: Nope, sorry, we just had a bad year, so bean counters said no money to develop one, but we have couple of 2 ton trucks? want them?
Non-childish customer: Bad year uh? that sucks, but that is cool, screw my taste/needs, let me give you my hard earned money and buy something I don't need. Can I also buy couple of 22" dubs from you guys. I am not into them, but hey, anything to help you guys out.


Sorry Eni, that is not how it works, they don't have to know or care about BMW's limitations, BMW is not the only game in town, if BMW can't give what the customer wants, they will just take their business somewhere else.

 

[klier]

Eni, don't get your undies in a knot.

LOL, too late

 

[Human]

In short: a BMW = Premium + Sport orientated + Luxurious

1. Premium - has certain expectations and criteria that it HAS to meet to satisfy the customer - Options and Luxuries that makes it a premium product.

2. Sporty - BMW's ///M division has their work cut out for them + KEEP IN MIND THAT being an ///M car it still has to be a BMW and BMW = Premium + Luxurious.

Point in time - If BMW is going "soft" SO IS PORSCHE!

BMW = X6+X5 (X6 M + X5 M) + Porsche = Cayenne (Cayenne Turbo)

BMW = 7 Series + 5 Series GT + Porsche = Panamera

BMW 'Sporty' = M3+ M5+ M6 + Porsche Carrera series / BMW Z4 + Porsche Cayman and Boxter.

ALL Premium + Sporty + Luxurious AND soft then

I rest my case

 

[Mr Robert]

I think there is a difference between when there are soft parts of the line and when the whole line has gone soft.

 

[Zafiro]

BMW has not gone soft, its the customers who are soft.

 

[EnI]

Wait, I thought you just said customer was the king?

Anyway let us see how this goes -

Non-childish customer to BMW sales guy: hey, I would love a light sporty car, have any?
BMW sales guys: Nope, sorry, we just had a bad year, so bean counters said no money to develop one, but we have couple of 2 ton trucks? want them?
Non-childish customer: Bad year uh? that sucks, but that is cool, screw my taste/needs, let me give you my hard earned money and buy something I don't need. Can I also buy couple of 22" dubs from you guys. I am not into them, but hey, anything to help you guys out.


Sorry Eni, that is not how it works, they don't have to know or care about BMW's limitations, BMW is not the only game in town, if BMW can't give what the customer wants, they will just take their business somewhere else.

Yeah, it's easy to just bitch, and be ignorant.

Sure customer is the king. As it comes to SERVICE! As it comes to PRODUCT (strategic marketing planning) the most prevailing group of does customers matter, not an individual. All the others are considered a niche, and they are catered independently if viable. Sure within a core product various customization is possible but within limits.

I was not talking about eg. the company not being able to deliver a reliable product of high quality that reflects the product's price. Sure in this case customer is the king - and he deserves & has a right to get an excellent product for the price he paid.

But in the case of product planning & offering, then it's hard to swallow all the bitching. "Oh, too soft. Too harsh. Oh, too whatever!" As you have stated correctly: every customer has an alternative - he can leave for another brand / product if not satisfied.

Sure every company is hungry for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback - since that can help the a lot making the products better, and more suitable for the certain customers. But unfortunately not every customer wants the same - usually needs & desires can be directly opposite: some wanting sportier car, some more comfortable one. And therefore engineers came up with selected Drive systems, where driver can chose from different engine, transmission, suspension,steering etc settings - making the car more a boat, or a racer.

And as you can see that's the trend right now: more cars in one. Either in ride character, or in basic shape. People want "masters of all trade". Especially in the premium segment.

As Martin stated. Not every body has money to buy himself / herself a weekend car. Most of core premium customers want a car that can be a daily drive, and still can transform into weekend car (being that a sports car, an off-roader, a wind catching cabrio etc. A car that feels at home on highways, in city streets, on twisty country roads etc.

Why do you think almost all carmakers are offering all-rounders at most? Because people want them! And it's the same case with BMW. Most BMW customers want more BALANCED cars. And BMW engineers have a task to develop such Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde vehicles.

I guess purists has become an insignificant minority. Therefore they are given the special models like is, M, GTS, tii, CLS etc. But such cars are hardly affordable. So - if you want them, pay a price for them. Too expensive? Sorry to hear there are many others who have more money, and can afford the car. It's not company's fault somebody's incomes are insufficient for getting such a car.

Gosh, I missed such debates. It make me feel a bit more alive again.

I even get myself a brand new pair of boxing gloves, so stay alert!

 

[Human]

Too expensive? Sorry to hear there are many others who have more money, and can afford the car. It's not company's fault somebody's incomes are insufficient for getting such a car.

Exactly! If you cannot afford premium, go buy sub-premium or non-premium.


PREMIUM =

1. The total cost of an option.

2. The difference between the higher price paid for a premium product and lower price paid for non+sub premium products.

 

[Mr Robert]

Problem, for BMW, is that it is not the only option for a sporty product in the segment. Audi is a really strong contender these days, moving hard into the driver oriented area and doing it good, on account of lightweight constructions - a very nice direction to have momentum towards these days - while BMW have tried to broaden its appeal by adding more comfort and luxury (and, inevitably, weight) to the whole range.

Not so many years ago, BMW was the only place to burn your cash for a sporty mundane car. Today, that is simply not the case.

At least, that is my opinion and what do I know, I'm only a potential customer.

 

[Padi]

Ofc it's getting softer, like every other car too, times are changing. But that BS about Audi gonna be the sporty one out of the trio, come on. I refuse to admit that before they come with a RWD car and that will never happen. Sorry but I would never buy any sporty/powerful car without RWD. Only thing I'm worried about BMW is their decision to make FWD cars

 

[HighestOfHigh]

Lord have mercy…BMW folks fighting amongst themselves over their beloved brand. What ever happen to the unity I saw back in the early 2000’s?

Yeah, it's easy to just bitch, and be ignorant.

Lol..Wow! Best line EVER!

 

[Beemer B773ER]

What ever happen to the unity I saw back in the early 2000’s?

Hmmm, sounds like a line from 'Where is the Love?' by the Black Eyed Peas.

If there's anyone to blame for all this, it's Chris Bangle. He's the one who convinced BMW as a whole to not be limited by their dogmas.

There ya go, we all now have someone to blame. Problem/disagreement solved!

 

[HighestOfHigh]

Hmmm, sounds like a line from 'Where is the Love?' by the Black Eyed Peas.

If there's anyone to blame for all this, it's Chris Bangle. He's the one who convinced BMW as a whole to not be limited by their dogmas.

There ya go, we all now have someone to blame. Problem/disagreement solved!

Lol..You are too funny.

Honestly..I think it all depends on the type of enthusiast you are that will determine your perspective of BMW being too soft.

Too a hardcore BMW/M enthusiast that sits at their house looking at there M3/M5 all day and taking it to the track every five minutes might see BMW as not being the same.

Now to someone like me who despised BMW 10 years ago, I think they are just where they need to be. The goal of any car company is to sell cars and make a profit. That should be their goal. Of course that comes along with customer service and making quality cars that engines don't catch on fire.

I would say in recent years they products have gotten better and appeal more to people who normally would not consider BMW. There increased sales is evidence of that. They are given customers what they want...options. They are being innovative and creative with their designs and their technology.

Too Soft? I doubt it. Just being more open minded.

I say way to go BMW. Keep up the good work!

I still want my M7 & X7 though.

 

[Merc1]

Lord have mercy…BMW folks fighting amongst themselves over their beloved brand. What ever happen to the unity I saw back in the early 2000’s?

It went out the window with manual gearboxes, lightweightness, naturally aspirated engines and RWD only....or in short with the nearly the entire Motorsports division.


M

 

[manuelf]

....

Gosh, I missed such debates. It make me feel a bit more alive again.

I even get myself a brand new pair of boxing gloves, so stay alert!

EnI, thank you for your contribution in this thread! Your analysis is sharp as ever ... and your comment about bitchyness and ignorance was just spot on! I don't get it why the "so called enthusiasts" don't get the logic that you disclosed in your comments? Even the really big ones (GM/Toyota/VW) in the industry with plenty of money to throw out don't manufacture the cars these people dream of (at least not for the price segment they are hoping).... But small BMW shall build these cars for this small audience and lay back and wait for being absorbed by Mr. Piech?

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

Gosh, I missed such debates. It make me feel a bit more alive again.

I even get myself a brand new pair of boxing gloves, so stay alert!

It's good to have you back Eni!

I'd love to get into more debates with you.

 

[Human]

Problem, for BMW, is that it is not the only option for a sporty product in the segment. Audi is a really strong contender these days, moving hard into the driver oriented area and doing it good, on account of lightweight constructions - a very nice direction to have momentum towards these days - while BMW have tried to broaden its appeal by adding more comfort and luxury (and, inevitably, weight) to the whole range.

Not so many years ago, BMW was the only place to burn your cash for a sporty mundane car. Today, that is simply not the case.

At least, that is my opinion and what do I know, I'm only a potential customer.

Doc, I know it's more than 'the some of the parts' so to speak but let's talk about suspension as one of the major influencing factors.

With suppliers i.e ZF Sachs that develop new adaptive suspension systems for the motor industry it is IMO the logic step for the OEM to incorporate these systems into their vehicles. The outcome in using this new tech by all mayor manufacturers (Audi (VAG), BMW and DAIMLER) is, as I said before that an Audi or BMW can turn into a Benz at the push of a button and vise versa.

Thus: If a Benz can turn into a BMW (with ABC suspension) its ok!

But: When a BMW 7er turns into a Benz by pushing the COMFORT button on the center console its wrong!?

And the same goes for a Porsche Panamera and Audi A8.

(The BMW ///M's had EDC for quite a while now - did not make any difference nor spoiled the driving involvement)

Must BMW drop adaptive suspension technology???

If I am missing the point I apologize

Interesting: I had a test drive in the LR Disco 4 last year and recently in the new Grand Cherokee Overland. Both have Adaptive Air Suspension + non-runflat and high profile tyres, though non of these two vehicles has the composed ride nor comfort my wife's X1 offers - maybe that is a little bit too soft!?

 

[Sunny]

Yeah, it's easy to just bitch, and be ignorant.

I absolutely get the business of BMW trying to appeal to bigger audience by making "softer" cars. I am just pointing out enthusiasts doesn't have to remain BMW loyalists if BMW doesn't offer what they want. As simple as that. How that is just "bitching and being ignorant" is beyond me, but whatever...

 

[TheDriver]

I don't get the whole thing that BMW has done soft, though their latest 'JOY' adverts are very confusing and don't in my mind explain the direction BMW are going.

I don't see anything different that BMW are doing or making now that they did 5-10 years ago, their M cars keep getting better, more rounded in their abilities but the level it still right up there. No BMW aren't going soft, it's just that their rivals are muscling in on their patch and in some cases are beating them at their own game.

What's changed is the range on offer, SUVs with M treatment, M cars with turbos, M cars that aren't manuals, they aren't going soft just adapting with the times.