If there is no 'Business case' for a BMW supercar.....

[mini_cooper4]

I was loosing fate in this forum but thank God UCG started posting in this thread!

From an investors point of view and as a forex player I can assure you that you must be blind to invest in Daimler and not in BMW AG right now and it is a bit too late already but still not a bad idea

BMW should not invest in anything else but volume products and module platforms right now if they want to keep the grow and cover more markets and niches.
A super car is never profitable enough. It's all about the image with super cars. BMW's image is all about the sport sedan and they are still the best in it... ok talk about Panamera but before that think about the price difference

I so much want to change my Gallardo with a BMW super car as I cannot stand Audi at all.
I pray sometimes that BMW will make that STUPID decision to build a super car in this days.
As a BMW enthusiast I'll say FU BMW for not being stupid enough to build my dream car!!!!

 

[Guibo]

I want a supercar because BMW's competitors all have one and they all seem to have made a business case for it, yet BMW can't? The SLS has sold so well they're bringing a Black Series version, the R8 V8 sold so well that Audi brought the V10. BMW can't fight back? BMW has ALL of the tools they need to make a car that will smack the competition around. The just don't want to use it. If the make make a 1M out of M3 parts, they can make a proper mid-engined super-car out of M6 parts.

I think you're missing the point that some have brought up: It's not whether they can make it profitable. It probably can be profitable. What you don't know is how BMW is weighing that option vs investing in something that yields larger (and longer term) profits. Investing in their efficiency programs, for example.
As for the logic of the Black Series and R8 V10, while I'm sure those models sell well, you can't readily assume that the higher-spec, faster versions are proof of massive success. Sometimes, hotter versions are introduced to maintain or renew interest in a lagging model line. All of those special editions of the Corvette and SLR, for example, are not proof of hot-selling vehicles; the SLR fell short of sales expectations.
And that relates to the McLaren F1 example that was posted. As driving enthusiasts, we remember it for its benchmark performance figures and Le Mans racing success. To many of us, it is a legend. But the market did not respond in kind: Against a projection of 300 planned units, they only sold ~100 examples. Considering a brand-new, from the ground up vehicle generally costs about 1 billion euros to develop, I'd be amazed if they made any profit on that venture.

You cannot make the case of using Ferrari vs BMW. Ferrari are in a unique position that no one has ever seen before in the automobile industry. They can command huge profit margins largely on their racing legacy and today's cars are a direct result of the modernization processes made possible with Fiat's helping hands decades ago. 20% of their profits is from their very lucrative licensing operations alone. Look at that Ferrari theme park in Abu Dhabi: My understanding is that they didn't invest money into that project. The park's operators pay Ferrari for the association with the name. You think BMW could pull that off? Ferrari also makes about a €46,000 profit on each car sold.
Another aspect you haven't considered is that low-volume manufacturers like Ferrari can apply for exemption to the EU CO2 limit targets.


As far as what the LFA has done for Lexus's image, I'd say the fact that there have been hundreds if not thousands of threads and mag articles pitching a Lexus against established supercar marques should tell us its impact in the minds of car enthusiasts. From a manufacturer standpoint, BMW are probably looking at that example and seeing that as a route they would rather not pursue: High development costs and a very long gestation period could prove harmful to their image. For Lexus, they felt they needed something to spark the public's imagination about the brand (known for reliable but ultimately boring vehicles) and were willing to take the hit in initial investment; additionally, the LFA had support from a pretty hardcore car guy (the company's now CEO) which rarely exists in other companies. For BMW, they probably feel they don't have such a need; they already have the sporting image that Lexus doesn't, and they've also already got a partner for supplying carbon fiber(SGL).

 

[Gianclaudio]

For the record, was not the the last year, where Lexus lost their top spot in USA sales against BMW and Merc? I don't see the initial positive impact of the LF-A, sorry. Mat be in the long term, but I highly doubt it.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

For the record, was not the the last year, where Lexus lost their top spot in USA sales against BMW and Merc? I don't see the initial positive impact of the LF-A, sorry. Mat be in the long term, but I highly doubt it.

The Tsunami had a huge part to play in that, I think.

 

[Gianclaudio]

Very good point, I completely forgot about it. We should see this 2012, then.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Very good point, I completely forgot about it. We should see this 2012, then.

Hopefully!

 

[SCOTT27]

Then wouldn't something along the lines of an E Superlight make more sense? A product that's actually accessible to the consumer? Don't get me wrong, I love the i8 and its design, but making something in the mid-high range seems to make more sense. It would make their INVESTMENT make more sense. I'm pretty sure if the i3 is well received there will be a i1, i2, i3, i4, i5, i6...xi2, xi5, etc...

The great thing about the BMWi cars is that they are not going to be mutually exclusive. Yes they will be available for purchase but in order to cement the new BMW image of sustainable mobility we will connect with rental institutions globally who will offer the cars for daily rental. If you take Germany as the prime example and especially Sixt - The i3 and the i8 will be offered to rental customers so everyone will be able to get the opportunity to drive a BMWi vehicle. Similar schemes will also be set up globally with a universal design and architecture where the i8 and i3 will be located in special portals along with terminals in which you can pre-set your journey , entertainment etc in the car.

If the i8 and i3 are to be a success as of course BMW's mission to change the overall perception of Alternative Drive.
Then it has to be extended to everyone, who can make up their own mind whether Alternative Drive is a revolution or passing trend?
Of course they will still be Premium vehicles with a Premium price but anybody will get the opportunity to drive a BMWi car .

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

The great thing about the BMWi cars is that they are not going to be mutually exclusive. Yes they will be available for purchase but in order to cement the new BMW image of sustainable mobility we will connect with rental institutions globally who will offer the cars for daily rental. If you take Germany as the prime example and especially Sixt - The i3 and the i8 will be offered to rental customers so everyone will be able to get the opportunity to drive a BMWi vehicle. Similar schemes will also be set up globally with a universal design and architecture where the i8 and i3 will be located in special portals along with terminals in which you can pre-set your journey , entertainment etc in the car.

If the i8 and i3 are to be a success as of course BMW's mission to change the overall perception of Alternative Drive.
Then it has to be extended to everyone, who can make up their own mind whether Alternative Drive is a revolution or passing trend?
Of course they will still be Premium vehicles with a Premium price but anybody will get the opportunity to drive a BMWi car .

So BMW really IS trying to become the next GM! What happened to the days when you had to pay extra to drive something with the roundel on it?

 

[Levi68]

So BMW really IS trying to become the next GM! What happened to the days when you had to pay extra to drive something with the roundel on it?

BMW is trying to be the next GM but they won't be able, VAG already is!

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

BMW is trying to be the next GM but they won't be able, VAG already is!

I'm sure BMW will find a way. They've been able to become the most profitable German luxury car maker, after all. The VAG empire is huge consisting of 6+ companies, yet they can't seem to make more money then ONE single company, BMW. Yes, BMW is doing a lot of things right. I hate on BMW because of what they use to be and what they have become and I'm just old school BUT, even I have to admit that that's pretty impressive.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

I'm sure BMW will find a way. They've been able to become the most profitable German luxury car maker, after all. The VAG empire is huge consisting of 6+ companies, yet they can't seem to make more money then ONE single company, BMW. Yes, BMW is doing a lot of things right. I hate on BMW because of what they use to be and what they have become and I'm just old school BUT, even I have to admit that that's pretty impressive.

You guys are probably one of the most ignorant members on this forum.

No. BMW are not trying to be the next GM or VAG and it can’t. BMW is a PREMIUM manufacturer and its business model is completely different to that of GM and VAG – who’s businesses comprise a mixture of premium (Audi, Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborgini for VAG, Cadillac for GM) and mass-market (VW, Skoda and Seat for VAG, Chevrolet, Opel, Vauxhall etc. for GM).

If you’re stupid enough to not realise, the business model for premium manufacturers are completely different to that of a mass-market.

Want proof?

In 2011, the following companies posted the following net losses:

PSA
Fiat Europe
GM Europe
Ford of Europe

How about the profitable companies:

VAG – including Audi
BMW
Daimler

Can you see the trend?

BMW did explore the idea of being a premium and mass-market manufacturer – Rover in the 90s. And we all know how spectacularly that failed!

BMWs goal is to be the leading premium manufacturer – I honestly for the life of me fail to see how that can be interpreted as being the next GM.

Seriously, you kids should stick with the other threads where you talk about big spoilers and touchy interior plastics. You’re way over your heads in this thread. Leave the serious business talk to intelligent people like your uncle UCG.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

You guys are probably one of the most ignorant members on this forum.

No. BMW are not trying to be the next GM or VAG and it can’t. BMW is a PREMIUM manufacturer and its business model is completely different to that of GM and VAG – who’s businesses comprise a mixture of premium (Audi, Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborgini for VAG, Cadillac for GM) and mass-market (VW, Skoda and Seat for VAG, Chevrolet, Opel, Vauxhall etc. for GM).

If you’re stupid enough to not realise, the business model for premium manufacturers are completely different to that of a mass-market.

Want proof?

In 2011, the following companies posted the following net losses:

PSA
Fiat Europe
GM Europe
Ford of Europe

How about the profitable companies:

VAG – including Audi
BMW
Daimler

Can you see the trend?

BMW did explore the idea of being a premium and mass-market manufacturer – Rover in the 90s. And we all know how spectacularly that failed!

BMWs goal is to be the leading premium manufacturer – I honestly for the life of me fail to see how that can be interpreted as being the next GM.

Seriously, you kids should stick with the other threads where you talk about big spoilers and touchy interior plastics. You’re way over your heads in this thread. Leave the serious business talk to intelligent people like your uncle UCG.

Woah, calm yourself down there partner. Go back and re-read what I wrote. There was a compliment inside the quote. I like many others here will also post what I want because I'm here to learn. YOU good sir will not tell me what I can and not not discuss.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

^ I couldn't give a shit if you included a compliment in your statement. A compliment from someone as ignorant as you doesn't exactly mean much. It's like a retard complimenting Stephen Hawling on his intelligence.

I'm just getting frustrated over the stupid posts you've made. You come in, thinking that it's rational for BMW to build a supercar becasue Ferrari is profitable. Do you realise how idiotic that sounds? Do you not realise that BMW and Ferrari are completely different companies that conduct their operations and finances in completely different manner? Seriously, going by your logic, BMW should also build an aeroplane because Boeing and Airbus are also profitable.

Another stupid post you made was in refernce to the sales figures to justify Daimler's financial position. Even more stupid was that you only used the US figures to back your claims. Do you not realise that sales only makes up a fraction of what constitutes financial success? Other important indicators are profitablity, free cash flow, ROI, ROA, gross margins, the strength of the balance sheet, R&D to Revenue ratio etc.

You even made that stupid post claiming that Daimler's share price is increasing. WTF!!!! I actually included supporting facts in my earlier post that Daimler shares have deteriorated over the past 12 month.

On top of that, you even say that the SLS is a success because it's sales increased from prior year in the US. That is not how you determine whether a model is selling successfully. You compare it to budget or a forecast!

Seriously, i can highlight many more flaws in your posts.

My advice is this: before you make a post about a particular topic in which you know shit all, do some reading or research because you're only demonstrating your sheer stupidity and ignorance to people.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

^ I couldn't give a shit if you included a compliment in your statement. A compliment from someone as ignorant as you doesn't exactly mean much. It's like a retard complimenting Stephen Hawling on his intelligence.

I'm just getting frustrated over the stupid posts you've made. You come in, thinking that it's rational for BMW to build a supercar becasue Ferrari is profitable. Do you realise how idiotic that sounds? Do you not realise that BMW and Ferrari are completely different companies that conduct their operations and finances in completely different manner? Seriously, going by your logic, BMW should also build an aeroplane because Boeing and Airbus are also profitable.

Another stupid post you made was in refernce to the sales figures to justify Daimler's financial position. Even more stupid was that you only used the US figures to back your claims. Do you not realise that sales only makes up a fraction of what constitutes financial success? Other important indicators are profitablity, free cash flow, ROI, ROA, gross margins, the strength of the balance sheet, R&D to Revenue ratio etc.

You even made that stupid post claiming that Daimler's share price is increasing. WTF!!!! I actually included supporting facts in my earlier post that Daimler shares have deteriorated over the past 12 month.

On top of that, you even say that the SLS is a success because it's sales increased from prior year in the US. That is not how you determine whether a model is selling successfully. You compare it to budget or a forecast!

Seriously, i can highlight many more flaws in your posts. Like ai said I am here to learn and have no problem admitting I make mistakes. I will now block you and your childish attitude. Grow up.

My advice is this: before you make a post about a particular topic in which you know shit all, do some reading or research because you're only demonstrating your sheer stupidity and ignorance to people.

How old are you again? 12? Sounds about right. I am here to learn and have no problem admitting I make mistakes. I've only been in Business school for less then a year so all this stuff is new to me. Do me a favor and grow up. For a second I actually thought you were 'smart'.

 

[330CIZHP]

Could you knock it off with the hostile and condescending language?? You should know it is a forum intended for discussion and he/she is entitled to his/her opinions. Posting such derogatory comments is not going to help you get your point across.

^ I couldn't give a shit if you included a compliment in your statement. A compliment from someone as ignorant as you doesn't exactly mean much. It's like a retard complimenting Stephen Hawling on his intelligence.

I'm just getting frustrated over the stupid posts you've made. You come in, thinking that it's rational for BMW to build a supercar becasue Ferrari is profitable. Do you realise how idiotic that sounds? Do you not realise that BMW and Ferrari are completely different companies that conduct their operations and finances in completely different manner? Seriously, going by your logic, BMW should also build an aeroplane because Boeing and Airbus are also profitable.

Another stupid post you made was in refernce to the sales figures to justify Daimler's financial position. Even more stupid was that you only used the US figures to back your claims. Do you not realise that sales only makes up a fraction of what constitutes financial success? Other important indicators are profitablity, free cash flow, ROI, ROA, gross margins, the strength of the balance sheet, R&D to Revenue ratio etc.

You even made that stupid post claiming that Daimler's share price is increasing. WTF!!!! I actually included supporting facts in my earlier post that Daimler shares have deteriorated over the past 12 month.

On top of that, you even say that the SLS is a success because it's sales increased from prior year in the US. That is not how you determine whether a model is selling successfully. You compare it to budget or a forecast!

Seriously, i can highlight many more flaws in your posts.

My advice is this: before you make a post about a particular topic in which you know shit all, do some reading or research because you're only demonstrating your sheer stupidity and ignorance to people.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

How old are you again? 12? Sounds about right. I am here to learn and have no problem admitting I make mistakes. I've only been in Business school for less then a year so all this stuff is new to me. Do me a favor and grow up. For a second I actually thought you were 'smart'.

Haha! you're acusing me of being a 12 year-old and telling me to grow up?

I'm not the member who's making the stupid, idiotic and ignorant posts.

I actually perform research from reputable sources and am able to make informed, logical and rational contributions to this forum.

Your contribution (and i use that term very loosely) to this forum are posts where you talk about big wheels, touchy feely interior plastics and nice bright headlights. The only thing you're good at is antagonising BMW fanboys (which isn't something to be proud of, in intellectual terms).

You've only been in business school for only a year! HAHA! You're either:

1. A 18-year old immature boy who doesn't even own a BMW (they're your parents car not yours, the only thing you're showing-off is your parents wealth) and who only just started to drive.

2. A 30-year old mature-age student who's only gone back to school after spend the best part of his 20s unemployed and stoned


You've got a lot to learn kid!

I am a lot older and far more experienced than you. I have been a Chartered Accountant for over 9 years. I've analyzed and consulted many blue-chip companies throughout my career. I study the industry inside-out and outside-in. Even then, i'm still considered a young-un in this industry.

I actually own a 2007 BMW 320i Luminance of which, i paid with my own hard-earned money.

Throughout my posts in this thread i have provided and taught you and other members some very valuable information. And throught most posts i make, i give all the readers some very valuable insight into the industry.

Contrast this to the shit you post.

I just gave you a valuable piece of advice in my previous thread. Use it or loose it, i don't care.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

I've reported UCG....again. I suggest others do the same. His posts are completely unacceptable and he really should reel his neck in.

 

[mini_cooper4]

No doubt UCG is one of the most valuable members in my eyes and forms his opinion based on facts and makes intelligent conclusions at the end
I agree that Hot Ice was misinformed and made a few posts that weren't accurate and meaningful and there was a big lack of logic in many of the posts he made in this thread.
BUT IMO you went too deep with your last posts UCG. I agree with you about everything but the personal attacks