- Messages
- 3,574
A good retro design is one thing, but a design which is not adapted to the time we live in is another thing…
GMA GMA T.50
- Thread starter mihc
- Start date
GMA is a British maker founded in 2017 by Gordon Murray. It builds analog, V12-powered hypercars like the T.50 and T.33. Official: GMA
A good retro design is one thing, but a design which is not adapted to the time we live in is another thing…
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
- Messages
- 11,258
This is pretty much a redux of a McLaren F1.
TopspeedPT
Track Technician
- Messages
- 3,748
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
No updates (so far), but at least a photo of their first pre-production car:
Since they are up to pre-production cars already, it shouldn't be too long now before the production starts (although the lack of updates is a bit concerning). Hopefully we might get the cars - and first reviews - before the end of the year.
Oh, also, there seem to be some power output claim shenanigans. Before the car had been fully revealed, the power was claimed to be 650bhp (659PS). Then when the car got revealed it rose slightly to 654bhp (663PS) - that is the most widely used figure. Then, at this year's Goodwood Member's Meeting and Festival of Speed the T.50 had plaques stating it had 669"hp" (probably PS). Finally, at the Quail the T.50 had a plaque claiming the car makes 650PS. And if you download the car data sheet from GMA's website it now also states 650PS, whereas it previously stated 663PS. Not sure if the power went up and then down because of needing to meet emission regulations or some because of other changes to the car, if the engine actually makes more power but now the ISG parasitic loss is calculated in and it wasn't before, or whether it's just confusion and conflicting information being supplied to those who write those...
Since they are up to pre-production cars already, it shouldn't be too long now before the production starts (although the lack of updates is a bit concerning). Hopefully we might get the cars - and first reviews - before the end of the year.
Oh, also, there seem to be some power output claim shenanigans. Before the car had been fully revealed, the power was claimed to be 650bhp (659PS). Then when the car got revealed it rose slightly to 654bhp (663PS) - that is the most widely used figure. Then, at this year's Goodwood Member's Meeting and Festival of Speed the T.50 had plaques stating it had 669"hp" (probably PS). Finally, at the Quail the T.50 had a plaque claiming the car makes 650PS. And if you download the car data sheet from GMA's website it now also states 650PS, whereas it previously stated 663PS. Not sure if the power went up and then down because of needing to meet emission regulations or some because of other changes to the car, if the engine actually makes more power but now the ISG parasitic loss is calculated in and it wasn't before, or whether it's just confusion and conflicting information being supplied to those who write those...
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
One thing I wonder about is how close to production the noise insulation is. I think the gearbox/engine gear/ISG whine might become annoying after a while - and certainly it wouldn't be the level of NVH you get in a Bugatti or something - if the cabin refinement is close to production level.
- Messages
- 35,960
The Veyron and Chiron are Hyper GTs which is a different type of vehicle to a Huyra or Laf.
Valkyrie, AMG One and T.50 are taking NVH to new levels. The noise in their cabins are on par with racing car. It's not for everyone but might nor matter if the cars will hardly be driven.
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
Well, the Valkyrie is certainly taking NVH to a new level. The AMG One apparently needs earplugs as well, although from the reviews so far it didn't seem that bad and might not be worse than something like the GT3RS/GT4RS. The T.50 - given all the talk about how it can be used every day - should be much quieter than the other two. And it seems that it is quieter, except there is this annoying ever present whine no matter the engine speed.
We know that the early prototype (XP5) shown at Goodwood didn't have any sound insulation installed and maybe this VP1 doesn't have it installed either. Which better be the case because otherwise I don't see how you would want to use this car every day (or at least often) if you had to listen to that whine all the time at the current volume.
This could be a pretty big deal as well because this was presented from the start as a usable supercar, specifically unlike the much more aggressive and extreme Valkyrie and AMG One. If it instead turned out that this is, in fact, a more of a stripped out racer than we were initially led to believe, then that would in turn place a lot more pressure on them delivering on the performance and sportiness side, which they might be unable to do.
We know that the early prototype (XP5) shown at Goodwood didn't have any sound insulation installed and maybe this VP1 doesn't have it installed either. Which better be the case because otherwise I don't see how you would want to use this car every day (or at least often) if you had to listen to that whine all the time at the current volume.
This could be a pretty big deal as well because this was presented from the start as a usable supercar, specifically unlike the much more aggressive and extreme Valkyrie and AMG One. If it instead turned out that this is, in fact, a more of a stripped out racer than we were initially led to believe, then that would in turn place a lot more pressure on them delivering on the performance and sportiness side, which they might be unable to do.
- Messages
- 35,960
AMG One and Valkyrie are more road legal race cars then they are hypercars. As you said, if the T.50 was touted to be a daily drivable hypercar like a P1, Laf or Huyra then they will be dissapointed by the high pitched wine.
It's similar to the wine you get when driving in 1st gear.
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
Seems like no car this year... 
EVO - Phase one of new Gordon Murray Group HQ celebrates topping off ceremony
Apparently, from someone who talked to Murray at Monterey Car Week, the production was still "6 months away" due to supply chain problems, which would place the production start in February. One good thing is that they are already at least up to their second pre-production car (out of 3 planned), so we might see reviews soon... that is if it's really just supply problems that are causing the delay and not development troubles and one is being optimistic...
EVO - Phase one of new Gordon Murray Group HQ celebrates topping off ceremony
Apparently, from someone who talked to Murray at Monterey Car Week, the production was still "6 months away" due to supply chain problems, which would place the production start in February. One good thing is that they are already at least up to their second pre-production car (out of 3 planned), so we might see reviews soon... that is if it's really just supply problems that are causing the delay and not development troubles and one is being optimistic...
Tourbillon
Cornering Kingpin
- Messages
- 9,107
- Messages
- 35,960
Anyone who read between the lines in Aug 2020, would have figured out that the estimated delivery date was unrealistic. First of all, the announcement of the car was basically a prospectus/fundraise. Received deposits would green light various next steps across prototyping, discussions with suppliers, tooling and building a HQ.
The delays won't be deal breaking for customers. This is a unicorn car and a 2nd chance for those who missed out on a McLaren F1. With a bespoke NA, manual gearbox, Gordon Murray as a creator, growing appetite for $2m+ cars, any units built will easily be worth at least 2-3x in 5 years.
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
It wasn't quite like that. If the planned delivery date was unrealistic, it was simply because they gave themselves only 14 months from first prototype to the start of production, while the industry standard is more like 2 years.
By the time the car got unveiled in August, all the major suppliers had long been locked in - Cosworth, Xtrac, Formaplex, etc. If you remember, we got to see first prototypes of the engine and gearbox even before the full reveal of the car, tooling for which had to have been signed off year or more in advance. They also had already sold ~70 cars even before the reveal, so it was not really the issue of money either.
Tracing the line of delays:
- first reveal of the car was originally planned for May 2020, but got moved to August 2020 (claimed because of Covid restrictions)
- the Ultima mule was first supposed to run in August 2020, but only started to run at the end of September 2020
- the first prototype was supposed hit the road in October 2020, but that only happened in February 2021 (claimed because of Covid restrictions related supply chain delays) - the car is 4 months behind schedule by this point
- they rushed their XP2 car ahead of XP1 to catch winter testing but in the UK the travel restrictions weren't lifted until May 2021, so they presumably missed that
- In January 2022 we are told the production is planned for "as early as Summer"
- In April 2022 prospective owners are told the production is planned for September
- the first pre-production cars were supposed to be built in October 2021, but by that point they were still in early prototype phase with the fan/active aerodynamics not yet working. The first time we saw a pre-production car was in August 2022 at Quail - the car is 10 months behind schedule
- In August 22 at Quail we are told the production is planned to start in 6 months, which would be February 2023 - 13 months behind schedule, but exactly 2 years after the first prototype
As for the cause of the delay - we know that both Covid restrictions and supply chain problems had a real effect, but I don't think that's the full story. I am pretty sure there have been some development troubles as well (when are there ever not?). The latest delay, for example, from September 2022 to February 2023, is being blamed on supply problems, but just a few days ago someone caught two prototypes testing in UAE - clearly quite unfinished and full of testing equipment - suggesting that the situation is far from the development being finished and the company just waiting for parts to arrive...
- Messages
- 35,960
Elon Musk said it best: Prototyping is easy, scale-up production is hard.
I can't think of a single recent new car manufacturer that hasn't faced delayed with delivering the first customer car.
It's a bit like building a new house. If someone gives you estimated completion date - add an additional 3-6 months to factor in delays.
- Messages
- 11,453
- Name
- Matt
I'm wondering how they handle the 'sales transaction' side of it. I believe everything that GMA has announced was sold by this summer at the latest... but it's not built. There is no way the car's bill of materials hasn't risen substantially in cost since. The quote I heard from someone at GMA, was along the lines of ... 'all the cars are sold, but Gordon's only got £10 in the bank'. It could be that development is struggling because of finance. Just a thought.
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
- Messages
- 1,316
That's possible. And beyond the rising cost of materials, a one year delay would balloon the development budget even more. Plus they are massively invested into building a new HQ. On top of that, as I have said in the past, I am not sure how their business plan - which is quite unlike other niche hypercar brands like Pagani or Koenigsegg which build one model over 10 years and then go to the next - is gonna work out. How do you release and sell a new hypercar (because that's the only thing you can produce if you limit yourself to 100 units) every year or two without a major fatigue setting in?
Well, anyway, if Aston Martin can still get funding even though it's a near bankrupt company with zero hope, GMA should be able to secure some new funds too if it comes down to it. And if money was really that tight, they probably wouldn't fly their cars and technicians to UAE to test. So probably it's not that bad yet...
