Opinion Future European defence policy

[klier]

And where will this money come from?

Everyone is in the red. Most EU economies are struggling.

There is no higher concentration of wealth on this planet than in the EU. So if others can do it, so can we.

And besides, Von der Leyen has eased the rules. Countries can invest without penalties. Where is the money is coming from? Who knows, they can print more Euros for all I care. Like how the Americans have a deficit of trillions and trillions of Dollars.

Money is entirely a non issue. It's about action. It's about the European defense industry being able to plan ahead for many years to come without having to worry there won't be any orders for the next year. This is the main and most important point.

 

[Matski]

And where will this money come from?

Everyone is in the red. Most EU economies are struggling. Even the German economy has shot itself in the leg, with the constantly rising cost of power. Will taxes fund the new war effort? People are already struggling, with constantly rising cost of power, food and rent. I highly doubt ordinary people will be happy to struggle even more.

I see €800bn has been released by the EU to get things going. That's equivalent to €4000 from every household in the EU-27... If that can be distributed across all the EU-27 economies, then it's not too bad, but I find it really hard to image that won't be politicised by euro sceptics.

 

[klier]

euro sceptics.

People have to really be utterly retarded if they are sceptics in this day and age. Who in his right mind wants their tiny little insignificant EU country to be the playball of Trump policy and tariffs??

 

[Design FIRST]

I see €800bn has been released by the EU to get things going. That's equivalent to €4000 from every household in the EU-27... If that can be distributed across all the EU-27 economies, then it's not too bad, but I find it really hard to image that won't be politicised by euro sceptics.

Yes, perceived "just distribution" and timelines are of essence. Germany's adversity towards debt is as ideologically entrenched, especially in free market libertarian and staunchly conservative circles, as it is fiscally entrenched. Hence, media and many voters tend to go into the panic mode when massive 800bn packages are proposed and initiated into policy. But in a less emotional, sober context, distributing this proportionally over, say, 10 years places the issue in a far more acceptable light. Also not to be ignored is often mindless, wasteful state expenditures on superfluous "projects" and the additional bureaucracies that accompany them. Eradicating this would play a very significant role in counter-financing. The government stands accused of recklessly, indiscriminately distributing handouts to parties and projects that contribute little to nothing towards the general well-being of society. It's been this way in Germany for decades.

 

[Design FIRST]

A crazy thought...

Now that the Transatlantic Alliance may now be irreparably destroyed, will the Chinese (reknown for their composed grasp of long term big picture scenarios and forward innovative thinking) become the EU's future bedfellow of choice ? Conceivably, there may be some far more mutally beneficial common ground shared with the Chinese and EU than there is shared with China and Russia...and now...the EU and the US. Excuse my, what could very well be a, brainfart. But man, shit has gotten so crazy as it is. Could it be that the U.S. as well as Russia have totally f***ed themselves up in this commotion ?

 

[Matski]

People have to really be utterly retarded if they are sceptics in this day and age. Who in his right mind wants their tiny little insignificant EU country to be the playball of Trump policy and tariffs??

Perhaps, but are you going to pretend those people don't exist? And they don't vote for people like Farage, Wilders, le Pen, Meloni, or Orban?

Seriously, the UK had one of the sweetest deals going in the EU and first time we got a vote on the style of membership we had, we left... You really should not underestimate national tribalism, it's more than capable of trumping common sense.

 

[SCOTT27]

The European companies invested in warfare (dozens and dozens in every EU country) are extremely high tech. And now that money will be pouring in for every possible side, they will start developing high tech the world has never seen. All EU made, no penny spend in the US.

Trump has awakened the most formidable world power.

Basically, all the US has left is their crashed Alien technology LOL......and their arsenal of nukes.
The F35 is a joke any modern drone will shoot out of the sky without even looking. Let me know when the pilot of an F35 is capable of 20 G in a turn.

For insulting the USofA you must face punishment.
You will watch “With Love Meghan” to see the error of your ways.

 

[Design FIRST]

Some interesting topic relevant tidbits of news and speculation:

The internet is featuring a number of psychologists/psychiatrists who are suggesting that Donald Trump is, in fact, losing his mind. And they advise that it is essential for world leaders to keep this in mind and not be drawn into his whirlpool of erratic, irrational insanity. Keep cool, collected and start getting done what needs to be done-and carry on doing so.

German media outlets are reporting that Beijings envoy for European affairs, Lu Shaye, "is appalled with Donald Trumps brazen and brutal treatment of the U.S. European allies". China positioning itself to get cozy with the EU ?

Incoming German government coalition negotiations appear to have taken major steps towards a two party CDU/SPD coalition agreement. At least at first glance, the results are looking more reasonable than could have been expected only a few hours ago. Germany needs a functional government. The EU needs a functional German government. It's been far too long.

 

[Sunny]

Just came to say 2 things -
1. FWIW (which is nothing), apologize for the shit show.
2. If all this proves anything, it is that any country really concerned about security/sovereignty, should get their own nukes (ideally with credible 2nd strike capability). Alliances/security guarantees are really not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[KiwiRob]

The technology is there, perhaps save the sophistication seen in U.S. or Israeli intelligence and surveillance equipment.

It can't be that sophisticated, they missed Oct 7th in the most heavily surveilled border on earth, or did they and just let it happen???

 

[KiwiRob]

Some interesting topic relevant tidbits of news and speculation:

The internet is featuring a number of psychologists/psychiatrists who are suggesting that Donald Trump is, in fact, losing his mind. And they advise that it is essential for world leaders to keep this in mind and not be drawn into his whirlpool of erratic, irrational insanity. Keep cool, collected and start getting done what needs to be done-and carry on doing so.

German media outlets are reporting that Beijings envoy for European affairs, Lu Shaye, "is appalled with Donald Trumps brazen and brutal treatment of the U.S. European allies". China positioning itself to get cozy with the EU ?

Incoming German government coalition negotiations appear to have taken major steps towards a two party CDU/SPD coalition agreement. At least at first glance, the results are looking more reasonable than could have been expected only a few hours ago. Germany needs a functional government. The EU needs a functional German government. It's been far too long.

If he's stood down Vance is automatically the President. Do you really think anything changes for the rest of the world???

 

[Design FIRST]

If he's stood down Vance is automatically the President. Do you really think anything changes for the rest of the world???

What I HOPE changes is that the EU + Great Britain and Europes NATO members (and ESPECIALLY Germany) take their destiny into their own hands. With unwaivering resolve, fortitude and pace. IMHO, it will be of essence to make the realization that the Transatlantic Alliance has been administered its death knell. At the hands of Mssrs. Trump/Vance/Musk. Of course not that CERTAIN (**cough, cough Deutschland**) EU nations have not been accomplices due to myopic, responsibilty evading and freeloading policies. And I hope that THIS IS OVER as well.

 

[klier]

Perhaps, but are you going to pretend those people don't exist? And they don't vote for people like Farage, Wilders, le Pen, Meloni, or Orban?

Them voting for those people (I voted Wilders) has nothing to do with foreign policy in that sense. I guess most voted for their immigration policy, which is Europe's no 1 problem.

If he's stood down Vance is automatically the President. Do you really think anything changes for the rest of the world???

Vance (or the next Republican President) will be even worse for Europe. The floodgates have opened. Looking back in 30 years, Trump might end up being the least worst (for Europe)

 

[Matski]

Them voting for those people (I voted Wilders) has nothing to do with foreign policy in that sense. I guess most voted for their immigration policy, which is Europe's no 1 problem

As I understand it Wilders is an advocate of 'Nexit', or at least wants to render the EU toothless to the point of irrelevance, I cannot see how that is conducive to international cooperation.

That aside, I'll leave my opinions on people like him to the side and just point out that voting against immigration is what f#cked the UK with Brexit (guess what immigration didn't go away, it's 'worse'), and it's part of what got Trump elected... We'll see how that works out for the USA, but to me it's mind boggling that people swallow what these people are spouting... it isn't going to solve a societies problems to have a right wing nutter in power.

 

[KiwiRob]

I think we are going to see Brexin and Norin happening sooner rather than later. I believe most British people realise Brexit was a huge mistake and Norway can't afford to sit on the outside where they don't have any advantage and many disadvantages. Both countries will be better off inside the EU than outside of it.

I know this won't be popular but European countries need to start rounding up illegal immigrants and refugees that haven't been granted asylum and send them home. It's the only issue (apart from Trans women in sport) where I believe Trump has the right idea.

 

[Design FIRST]

I think we are going to see Brexin and Norin happening sooner rather than later. I believe most British people realise Brexit was a huge mistake and Norway can't afford to sit on the outside where they don't have any advantage and many disadvantages. Both countries will be better off inside the EU than outside of it.

I know this won't be popular but European countries need to start rounding up illegal immigrants and refugees that haven't been granted asylum and send them home. It's the only issue (apart from Trans women in sport) where I believe Trump has the right idea.

The issue of decade long failed immigration policies that has been further exacerbated over the Merkel era years and the succeeding SPD/Green/Free Democrat federal coalition government has been THE major driver of large portions of the electorate migrating into the arms of far right populists in Germany. It now appears that the EU is FINALLY getting wise to this dilemma and will undertake measures that will accelerate deportation of those who have proven criminal or otherwise simply unintegratable and effectively secure EU territory from uncontrolled migration. Effectively doing this could very well render the far right superfluous, not only in Germany. Mind you, demographics in many EU countries indicate that immigration of YOUNG, HIGHLY EDUCATED, HIGHLY QUALIFIED professionals will be essential in sustaining economic and fiscal stability. Germany especially, which its increasingly large elderly demographic and consistently low birth rates, must take all measures possible in making the country attractive for these people. Currently, it is very far from that. Uncontrolled migration and ridiculously undiscerning, accomodating asylum policies have seriously obstructed the immigration of those that the country desperately requires. These people seek far more attractive venues than a country that has become a basket case.

 

[Matski]

I think we are going to see Brexin and Norin happening sooner rather than later. I believe most British people realise Brexit was a huge mistake and Norway can't afford to sit on the outside where they don't have any advantage and many disadvantages. Both countries will be better off inside the EU than outside of it

Can't speak for Norway, but the UK won't be rejoining anytime soon. The incumbent party has not had EU membership as a policy at any point, Starmer keeps ruling it out. After the next election, which will likely be won by the Conservatives, there's no way in hell they'll go back to the EU. Plus, we will be worse off than we were in the EU the first time, and that will be a sticking point come any negotiation.

 

[klier]

As I understand it Wilders is an advocate of 'Nexit', or at least wants to render the EU toothless to the point of irrelevance, I cannot see how that is conducive to international cooperation.

Very true, but it's a side issue so to speak, he wasn't voted in for that. He wouldn't get any real votes if he became vocal about that retarded idea. He's voted in for immigration and nothing else.

 

[KiwiRob]

Can't speak for Norway, but the UK won't be rejoining anytime soon. The incumbent party has not had EU membership as a policy at any point, Starmer keeps ruling it out. After the next election, which will likely be won by the Conservatives, there's no way in hell they'll go back to the EU. Plus, we will be worse off than we were in the EU the first time, and that will be a sticking point come any negotiation.

If the UK doesn't re-enter the EU I don't see the point in the UK anymore, it should split up, the Scotts and Welsh can join the EU and England can flounder around in the mess that they have created for themselves.

Something else they need to fix is the electoral system, FPP is outdated, there is no way Labor with 33.7% of the vote should win 63% of the seats and the mandate to govern. The election should have been voided and re run IMO.

 

[Matski]

If the UK doesn't re-enter the EU I don't see the point in the UK anymore, it should split up, the Scotts and Welsh can join the EU and England can flounder around in the mess that they have created for themselves.

Something else they need to fix is the electoral system, FPP is outdated, there is no way Labor with 33.7% of the vote should win 63% of the seats and the mandate to govern. The election should have been voided and re run IMO.

Well, this selection of hot takes is so all over the place it's positively Trumpian.