Forget hybrids, America; diesels will provide economy, performance

[ADGvast]

The runaway price of gasoline has forced Americans to look for more economical fuel. Sure, the gas-electric hybrid engines powering the Toyota Prius and Lexus RX400h are breathtaking technological achievements. But they are heavy and expensive. And claims by Toyota that the Prius will average 54.7 miles per U.S. gallon have not been borne out in Europe, where you can expect around 42 mpg (35 miles per U.S. gallon). Diesel-powered cars like the VW Passat can easily better that, and can combine frugality with much better performance than the Prius.

You would expect leaders of big European manufacturers to echo this idea, and they do, describing hybrids as an expensive blind alley.

"Despite the big public debate right now, it (hybrids) will just be a niche technology," German luxury car maker BMW AG chief executive Helmut Panke told Reuters at the Tokyo car show.

"They (hybrids) do not have long-term economic prospects because they are a lot more expensive to produce (than diesels) with the same results," said Jean-Martin Folz, chief executive of French mass car manufacturer PSA Peugeot Citroen.

Experts like Peter Schmidt, editor of the pan-European bi-weekly newsletter Automotive Industry Data, reckon that Toyota's hybrid venture, although an impressive engineering program, was more of a public relations exercise.

"Toyota lacks one fundamental element -- image - unlike BMW or Mercedes. Toyota cleverly used the environmental theme to boost this," said Schmidt.

Schmidt agrees that diesels are at least the match for hybrids in terms of economy and performance at a cheaper price, but says the crucial element in diesel success in America will be its ability to match tough new laws curbing emissions of soot or particulates, and dangerous nitrogen oxides (NOx).

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/26/0auto-361111.htm

So guys, what do you think about the hybrid or diesels ????

 

[Imhotep Evil]

The runaway price of gasoline has forced Americans to look for more economical fuel. Sure, the gas-electric hybrid engines powering the Toyota Prius and Lexus RX400h are breathtaking technological achievements. But they are heavy and expensive. And claims by Toyota that the Prius will average 54.7 miles per U.S. gallon have not been borne out in Europe, where you can expect around 42 mpg (35 miles per U.S. gallon). Diesel-powered cars like the VW Passat can easily better that, and can combine frugality with much better performance than the Prius.

You would expect leaders of big European manufacturers to echo this idea, and they do, describing hybrids as an expensive blind alley.

"Despite the big public debate right now, it (hybrids) will just be a niche technology," German luxury car maker BMW AG chief executive Helmut Panke told Reuters at the Tokyo car show.

"They (hybrids) do not have long-term economic prospects because they are a lot more expensive to produce (than diesels) with the same results," said Jean-Martin Folz, chief executive of French mass car manufacturer PSA Peugeot Citroen.

Experts like Peter Schmidt, editor of the pan-European bi-weekly newsletter Automotive Industry Data, reckon that Toyota's hybrid venture, although an impressive engineering program, was more of a public relations exercise.

"Toyota lacks one fundamental element -- image - unlike BMW or Mercedes. Toyota cleverly used the environmental theme to boost this," said Schmidt.

Schmidt agrees that diesels are at least the match for hybrids in terms of economy and performance at a cheaper price, but says the crucial element in diesel success in America will be its ability to match tough new laws curbing emissions of soot or particulates, and dangerous nitrogen oxides (NOx).

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/26/0auto-361111.htm

So guys, what do you think about the hybrid or diesels ????

Well, the choice is clear: Hybrid-Diesels.

 

[martinbo]

Like with most electrical / electronic technology, I guess it would be safe to assume that the rate of technological progression in the area of hybrid technology will outpace that of pure reciprocal engine mechanical development. I believe that electrical technology will play a vital role in the future of the automobile and that sooner or later some bright spark will come up with a master plan to address what I feel is the electric hybrid's greatest drawback: heavy, space inefficient and energy-hungry fuel cells.

I'm of the opinion that there are a number of outlets in the combustion process wherey energy is simply wasted. I have every expectation that harnessing the otherwise wasted energy could go a long way to making the electrical systems lighter, more space efficient and more energy conserving.

Diesels? Nice, but they're not all what they're cracked up to be in terms of driver enjoyment*. And that still counts for a lot in my books. Hence the concept "enthusiast".
I believe a torque-boosting electric drive can only enhance the appeal of a high-performing petrol engine whilst still conserving fuel.

* Of course, modern diesels are still a whack more fun to drive than modern petro-electric hybrids, but that's mainly as a result of the inroads made in diesel technology to make them more appealing from a performance point of view. A diesel engine with no common rail direct engine and no turbo is about as fun as reading the Sunday tabloid in the shower. So, once the consumer demand for performance in hybrids increases so too will their driver appeal.

 

[warot]

I went for diesel because those German diesels are just beasty. I drove a 120d over the summer and that was keeping up with a 330i. It's an amazing piece of machinery.

However, I do think that hybrids are here to stay and they are cleaner than diesels. But as of right now, a 535d or 335d seems a whole heck more attractive than a Prius or Civic hybrid.

 

[martinbo]

Yeah on that BMW note though, it's interesting how, from a personal perspective at least, polarised my opinions are regarding Munich's derve-flavoured offerings...

4 cylinder diesels - limited appeal, unrefined, noisy, narrow torqueband etc. I'm referring to the new 320d I drove on the weekend.
6 cylinder diesels - smooth, characterful, wider torqueband, tuneful, ballistic. I'm referring to just the E46 330d a friend owns. I can honestly say that the six cylinder diesel is just about one of the most appealing powerplants I've ever had the privilege of driving.

So, it depends on the type of diesel engine.

 

[warot]

Yeah on that BMW note though, it's interesting how, from a personal perspective at least, polarised my opinions are regarding Munich's derve-flavoured offerings...

4 cylinder diesels - limited appeal, unrefined, noisy, narrow torqueband etc. I'm referring to the new 320d I drove on the weekend.
6 cylinder diesels - smooth, characterful, wider torqueband, tuneful, ballistic. I'm referring to just the E46 330d a friend owns. I can honestly say that the six cylinder diesel is just about one of the most appealing powerplants I've ever had the privilege of driving.

So, it depends on the type of diesel engine.

You didn't like the 320d? I'm surprised, I thought it was very nice. A bit noisy outside, but inside I couldn't really tell. Well let's put it this way Martin. 2.0 liter vs 2.0 liter. I wouldn't touch the 320i with a 10 foot pole. I'd pick up the 320d in a second.

On the other hand, the 6 cylinder is a masterpiece though. Totally different world. Wait until you try the E90 330d, be prepared.

 

[p373r7r4n]

Diesels!!!

but hybrid-diesels would benice too!

 

[warot]

Diesels!!!

but hybrid-diesels would benice too!

Do you think? 70 to 80 mpg?
I had a discussion with Ford engineers once and they say it won't be possible for a bit. It doesn't make sense to me because both diesels and hybrids exist so why not just combine to 2. I said why not by 2008? They laughed at me and said no.

 

[Matt]

The Germans dont send their diesels over here....So how are we supposed to buy them. If I had the money I would get a 535 D over a 545i, but BMW hasnt brought any diesel engined cars here.

 

[MikeJ]

I was watching an old Top Gear episode from 1990, they featured a VW Golf diesel hybrid which apparently was fully functional....

 

[warot]

The Germans dont send their diesels over here....So how are we supposed to buy them. If I had the money I would get a 535 D over a 545i, but BMW hasnt brought any diesel engined cars here.

They will soon... Benz is already starting to

 

[p373r7r4n]

we can expect the diesel-hybrid s class in the next year or 2... i hope...

 

[Alx]

From the sounds of other threads, it seems like MB is heading towards diesel fairly quickly, already the new ML, i certainly would say next year we will be discussing a Diesel S 350 or soemthing in that nature.

Which by the way is a great thing!