Vs Fifth Gear - McLaren MP4-12C vs. Ferrari 458 Italia

[Human]

I was expecting allot more from the Mclaren that said, there must be a great deal of satisfaction over at Ferrari because most of the tests seem to be saying that the McLaren is technically impressive and incredibly quick but only the Ferrari 458 tugs at the heartstrings in a way a supercar should - that is if it does not blow up in a ball of fire
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[Guibo]

Hi,

I've created a blog entry with my thoughts on this discussion here: Thoughts on the McLaren MP4-12C's showing in recent comparative tests - Blogs - German Car Forum

If you wish to comment on the opinion please do so here in the interests of discussion continuity.

Great insight on your blog post there, martinbo. One part sort of stands out:
"Worst comes to worst, McLaren can surely fit a limited slip rear differential to the MP4-12C to give it more on-the-limit controllability. But I don't think it'll come to this - I think the McLaren's mechanical and software engineers will be able to re-program the Brake Steer systems parameters allowing for a more forgiving disposition on or over the limit."

It makes me wonder why, after the claimed million miles of development and 40 prototypes (and with some input from none other than a couple of F1 world champions), this was not found and fixed. And it's not like this is a track-dependent thing either, as McLaren have specifically tested on this track as well (which, I should add, gives the MP4-12C some additional benefit that others will not have had). Do you happen to know if this system is intrinsically different from the electronic braking differentials found on some other cars?

 

[BenDover]

The F1 is impossible to succeed, hence why they would never call anything its successor. However it is still a McLaren, carries the McLaren logo and developed at MTC with assuming an even bigger budget than the F1.
Having the same impact as the F1 is as I said impossible, but beat the entry level Ferrari should be an easy task. This thing should run circles around cars worth twice as much, at least.

Sounds familiar to the argument that when on prior to the arrival of the 1M. It's funny but in many ways this new car far exceeds the F1 but yet it will still be know as inferior because the F1 was such a huge leap at the time.

Matinbo's comment on it's lack of a limited slip diff surprised me as I didn't realise it hadn't got one, how after so long test miles and the input of such respected and knowledgable test drivers did this item get overlooked. Is it possible that it has some form of electronic one though after watching what happened to tiff of fifthgear is it possible that this car was design with track performance and everyday drivability in mind where silly showboat antics have no place. Like who in their right mind would think of powersliding one of these for the fun of it?

 

[Wunderkind]

Great insight on your blog post there, martinbo. One part sort of stands out:
"Worst comes to worst, McLaren can surely fit a limited slip rear differential to the MP4-12C to give it more on-the-limit controllability. But I don't think it'll come to this - I think the McLaren's mechanical and software engineers will be able to re-program the Brake Steer systems parameters allowing for a more forgiving disposition on or over the limit."

It makes me wonder why, after the claimed million miles of development and 40 prototypes (and with some input from none other than a couple of F1 world champions), this was not found and fixed. And it's not like this is a track-dependent thing either, as McLaren have specifically tested on this track as well (which, I should add, gives the MP4-12C some additional benefit that others will not have had). Do you happen to know if this system is intrinsically different from the electronic braking differentials found on some other cars?

I think where it went 'wrong' for McLaren (if I could call it that) is that they did all the programming, calibration, road-testing, and validation all by themselves with little or no external input. Though McLaren's Engineering and Testing & Development team is of the highest technical standard and most of them have come over to the road car division from the racing side. However, engineering and developing a road car is quite different and McLaren's high standards have caught them out. A car that could be driven to the limit by ex-Formula or ex-Sportcar drivers does not mean it could be driven quite as fast by the mere mortals.

Also most European performance car companies fit their cars with Bosch stability systems and the Bosch guys would be involved in the calibration and tuning of these systems from the mid-stages of development. The Bosch guys would work with the company engineers in setting the parameters to the 90th percentile. Anything over that is left to the discretion of the engineers of the car carmaker concerned. This thorough process allows the lowest common denominator to be established and validation of different parameters and what works and what doesn't. This process not only establishes the technical (mechanical) aspects of the car's dynamic qualities (handling/ride/grip thresholds), but also the 'tactile' qualities (i.e. the perception and feel) of the car's dynamic qualities. After watching the 5th Gear videos, you can't help but wonder if McLaren might have got things a bit wrong in both the technical and tactile characteristics of the car. If accomplished racing drivers such as Jason Plato and Tiff Needell have trouble driving the car near the limit, what chance do we have?

I'm not sure if McLaren would bite the bullet and put a heavier limited slip differential into the MP4-12C, it's not their style to turn back on a sound concept (brake steer). They will probably go back to the drawing board and find ways to improve the concept to make it work.

 

[Wunderkind]

Another thing I'd like to add/speculate is that the McLaren engineers probably became obsessed with attaining the highest absolute value in the key criterias and they didn't engineer much 'feel' and margins for safety and 'entertainment' or 'play'. For example, AMG benchmarked the SLS against the 997 turbo and the Audi R8 on handling/grip and once the SLS got to within 95% either, AMG would then go for feel, adjustability, and some play (i.e. allowing some understeer and maybe for the tail to slide gradually before the electronic nanny stepping in).

But McLaren being McLaren, was probably not content with equalling the dynamic values of the F430 Scuderia and the 458 Italia. McLaren went for Gold and tried to blow the 458 Italia away by going 10-15% above that of the 458 Italia and achieved it. But in the process of achieving these stellar figures, McLaren have lost sight of the positive 'feel' that is so important when driving such car near or at the limit. It's a bit like the Porsche Carrera GT. The Porsche engineers designed it to maximize grip and once it let go, there was no way of catch it. Porsche destroyed 3 of them in developing the Carrera GT.

Again, a Grand Prix driver such as Hamilton and Button can cope with such a car. But normal people would struggle a great deal.

 

[Guibo]

Is it possible that it has some form of electronic one though after watching what happened to tiff of fifthgear is it possible that this car was design with track performance and everyday drivability in mind where silly showboat antics have no place. Like who in their right mind would think of powersliding one of these for the fun of it?

I think there will be plenty of customers who would like the car, for which they've paid a hefty sum, to do precisely as they'd want it to do. One does not need to engage in silly showboat antics or powersliding for its sake to realize the benefits of a mechanical LSD. Roadracers, hillclimbers and autocrossers realize this benefit every weekend, and for the occasional trackday user seeking fun, it's helpful there too. Even in F1, you can sometimes see drivers laying down two patches of rubber coming out of certain turns.


Wunderkind:
Good explanation. But how do we know that Bosch were not involved with the Brake Steer system on the MP4-12C? And does anyone know if it is in any way fundamentally different from systems found on other cars? If McLaren go back only now to the drawing board to fix the system, one has to wonder about the half-decade of development and rigorous testing. As for McLaren's aim to beat the Ferrari on pure objective measurements, that looks to be the end result, though not necessarily in lap times. Yet from their earlier press release, here's McLaren Automotive MD Antony Sheriff:
"In the more subjective areas of road-holding, handling, comfort, driver involvement and day-to-day usability, McLaren is achieving new standards for a mid-engined high performance sports car in this sector."

Bold claims which remain to be met in these tests so far.