Vs EVO: Ferrari 599 GTO vs Lexus LFA

[Nicks]

Sound competition without SLS - that's ridiculous!

 

[Merc1]

Nearly impossible to pick a favorite here, that is high praise for the Lexus. If this where a "regular" 599 then I'd say Lexus, but with this being the GTO its not so cut and dry. If Lexus would only produce something as interesting for say 1/5th of the price they'd be on to something. Most Lexus buyers will never, ever experience the LF-A and Lexus doesn't have anything else even close to it in their showroom.


M

 

[330CIZHP]

Agreed. Strange dichotomy, really. Nothing else in the Toyota/Lexus line up piques even my remote interest. They all seem quite bland. Maybe, IS-F is quite a decent effort and is doing well against the C63 and M3. I have heard they are updating it again this year.

And then there is the antidote LFA on the other side, which is one of my most favorite exotic supercars of all times.

Nearly impossible to pick a favorite here, that is high praise for the Lexus. If this where a "regular" 599 then I'd say Lexus, but with this being the GTO its not so cut and dry. If Lexus would only produce something as interesting for say 1/5th of the price they'd be on to something. Most Lexus buyers will never, ever experience the LF-A and Lexus doesn't have anything else even close to it in their showroom.


M

 

[Soup]

 

[Guibo]

...GTO was never tested, that's all

Maybe not for numbers, but then that was never what made that car a star in the first place.


This article should thoroughly refute any claims that the LFA is a useless supercar with an unjustified price tag.
Interesting to note that the most hardcore street 599, even with adjustable dampers and decontented of radio and nav, still manages to scrape its bottom in particularly tricky corners. We might guess that the HGTE, and moreso the standard 599, would have been outclassed by the LFA on these roads. Which are stunning! Especially that shot next to the opening paragraphs. Thanks again, Soup.

 

[Mafalda]

Maybe not for numbers, but then that was never what made that car a star in the first place.


This article should thoroughly refute any claims that the LFA is a useless supercar with an unjustified price tag.
Interesting to note that the most hardcore street 599, even with adjustable dampers and decontented of radio and nav, still manages to scrape its bottom in particularly tricky corners. We might guess that the HGTE, and moreso the standard 599, would have been outclassed by the LFA on these roads. Which are stunning! Especially that shot next to the opening paragraphs. Thanks again, Soup.

You as usual highlights the part of the article aì makes you convenience ...
I cannot find where the article says "the price is even lower than the contents"
there're a lots of reviews where the magazines say "price too high", but or you marginalized them, or you simply refuse the verdicts...
reading your quotes, the LFA seems perfect
... what does this article about the gearshift?

 

[330CIZHP]

Awesome post. I am bummed out how they never did laps at the Bedford Autodrome. The reason is the lamest possible reason much like Top Gear that these cars are too loud and the Evo chief would be disturbed by the high level of noise on Bedford. I don't believe these cars are LOUDER than many of the other cars they have tested in the past on Bedford Autodrome.

Maybe not for numbers, but then that was never what made that car a star in the first place.


This article should thoroughly refute any claims that the LFA is a useless supercar with an unjustified price tag.
Interesting to note that the most hardcore street 599, even with adjustable dampers and decontented of radio and nav, still manages to scrape its bottom in particularly tricky corners. We might guess that the HGTE, and moreso the standard 599, would have been outclassed by the LFA on these roads. Which are stunning! Especially that shot next to the opening paragraphs. Thanks again, Soup.

 

[Guibo]

You as usual highlights the part of the article aì makes you convenience ...
I cannot find where the article says "the price is even lower than the contents"
there're a lots of reviews where the magazines say "price too high", but or you marginalized them, or you simply refuse the verdicts...
reading your quotes, the LFA seems perfect
... what does this article about the gearshift?

Why does an article have to say "the price is even lower than the contents" for the car to judged on its merits and exclusivity? Or are we saying an article must say "the price is even lower than the contents" before we can say the car is worth its price? We can look at their comments and then draw the conclusion about worth: If the GTO is justified in its price, then so is the LFA
There's also lots of reviews where they say arguing about price in the supercar sector is pretty lame; the insanely rich people don't look at cars like guys like you, mafalda. For them, it's not all about numbers. Look at the pre-sales of the FF and Aventador. Look at people who have placed deposits on the 458 long before they even knew what it looked like. There are also articles that say just because a car costs more, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be better. It might just be more exclusive. Which the LFA is.

The article says the gearshift is the one area where the 599 GTO is better. It doesn't say anything about the LFA being slower than Lambos because of it.
Are we going to re-hash everything the article said? Do we need to mention the LFA's carbon structure that delivers a "tangible sense of anvil-like integrity?" An "utterly addictive" engine that's like nothing else on the road? The more nuanced, cultured exhaust note? The better balance on the limit, with more progression and predictability? The carbon ceramic brakes that (despite being Lexus's first ever attempt) managed to rank a bit better than Ferrari who has had it since the days of the 360 Challenge Stradale, if not counting the F1 expertise? No, we don't have to mention that. We were talking about whether the GTO really is closer to the 599XX than the HGTE, and what makes that so.
I'm just pointing out that based on this review, the LFA would likely have outclassed both the 599 and its more performance-oriented variant, the HGTE. Which, not coincidentally, is the same conclusion that C&D reached. If you want to read much more into that than there is, then I suggest you take it up with me privately.

 

[Guibo]

Awesome post. I am bummed out how they never did laps at the Bedford Autodrome. The reason is the lamest possible reason much like Top Gear that these cars are too loud and the Evo chief would be disturbed by the high level of noise on Bedford. I don't believe these cars are LOUDER than many of the other cars they have tested in the past on Bedford Autodrome.

I don't think it's the Evo chief that would be disturbed. But it is a pretty lame reason: Residents living near an airfield complaining about the noise made by a road car. It's similar to what's happened at Laguna Seca, which was built right next to a US military artillery target range. Some track drivers have found some fairly ingeneous ways around the sound sensors, though.

 

[Soup]

Evo extras

I'll add the scans when I'm back home. ( 2 ~ 16 cylinders)

 

[330CIZHP]

The article says the gearshift is the one area where the 599 GTO is better. It doesn't say anything about the LFA being slower than Lambos because of it.

That is the problem with the LFA's gearbox. It is either love or hate relationship. Many have absolutely loved the "power slam" feel of the LFA transmission making it feel very direct and visceral experience or people who prefer the "CVT smooth" shifts of dual-clutch and some other single-clutch manuals will hate LFA's SMG7 like approach.

I am sure, EVO (either mistaken about or not talking about) the maximum LFA transmission shift since according to the measured graph data you posted earlier, LFA's transmission shifts atleast as quick or quicker than any other single-clutch automated box (I am not aware of GTO 599 having any quicker shifts than the standard HGTE 599):



Unintentionally, the are talking about the variability in shift speed despite being in maximum shift level 7

According to Lexus, under full throttle load, the transmission in shift level 7 will shift at the fastest. However, under partial load depending on the pedal angle in order to retain the maximum traction and reduce the jerk (especially for mid-corner shifts), the shift speed is not at its quickest taking into account mid-corner shifts.


I also personally disagree with Lexus' approach as in shift level 7, it should shift at the quickest speed no matter what and if it required them reducing the "shift jerk for visceral feel", they should have done that:

 

[Mafalda]

Why does an article have to say "the price is even lower than the contents" for the car to judged on its merits and exclusivity? Or are we saying an article must say "the price is even lower than the contents" before we can say the car is worth its price? We can look at their comments and then draw the conclusion about worth: If the GTO is justified in its price, then so is the LFA
There's also lots of reviews where they say arguing about price in the supercar sector is pretty lame; the insanely rich people don't look at cars like guys like you, mafalda. For them, it's not all about numbers. Look at the pre-sales of the FF and Aventador. Look at people who have placed deposits on the 458 long before they even knew what it looked like. There are also articles that say just because a car costs more, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be better. It might just be more exclusive. Which the LFA is.

The article says the gearshift is the one area where the 599 GTO is better. It doesn't say anything about the LFA being slower than Lambos because of it.
Are we going to re-hash everything the article said? Do we need to mention the LFA's carbon structure that delivers a "tangible sense of anvil-like integrity?" An "utterly addictive" engine that's like nothing else on the road? The more nuanced, cultured exhaust note? The better balance on the limit, with more progression and predictability? The carbon ceramic brakes that (despite being Lexus's first ever attempt) managed to rank a bit better than Ferrari who has had it since the days of the 360 Challenge Stradale, if not counting the F1 expertise? No, we don't have to mention that. We were talking about whether the GTO really is closer to the 599XX than the HGTE, and what makes that so.
I'm just pointing out that based on this review, the LFA would likely have outclassed both the 599 and its more performance-oriented variant, the HGTE. Which, not coincidentally, is the same conclusion that C&D reached. If you want to read much more into that than there is, then I suggest you take it up with me privately.

I'll never contact you in pvt, you know it as well.
see you when will be a full comparo

 

[Mafalda]

That is the problem with the LFA's gearbox. It is either love or hate relationship. Many have absolutely loved the "power slam" feel of the LFA transmission making it feel very direct and visceral experience or people who prefer the "CVT smooth" shifts of dual-clutch and some other single-clutch manuals will hate LFA's SMG7 like approach.

I am sure, EVO (either mistaken about or not talking about) the maximum LFA transmission shift since according to the measured graph data you posted earlier, LFA's transmission shifts atleast as quick or quicker than any other single-clutch automated box (I am not aware of GTO 599 having any quicker shifts than the standard HGTE 599):

The problem is: the 99.9% of car-magazines like the gearbox of a 458, 599GTO or aventador, but the most part or car-magazines completly dislike the gearbox of LFA.
it means there's something wrong.
even so, if you laike it... de gustibus non disputandum est

 

[330CIZHP]

The problem is: the 99.9% of car-magazines like the gearbox of a 458, 599GTO or aventador, but the most part or car-magazines completly dislike the gearbox of LFA.
it means there's something wrong.
even so, if you laike it... de gustibus non disputandum est

There is nothing wrong with it other than it being raw and less refined especially in city driving. It is a different approach like mentioned before than the "CVT smooth" approach of the dual-clutch transmission. Some would like it, others won't. Again, it is a matter of personal preference. I personally hated the M-DCT and VW DSG, but that is my preference.

Lexus has been racing the LFA in 24-hours endurance races with the bone stock ASG transmission.

I also disagree 99.9% people don't like the LFA tranny. BestMotoring and Winding Road's Tsuchiya San and professional race car driver went as far as calling it his "most favorite automated transmission" out of the one's he has driven. I posted the interview in the LFA thread. Grand Am champion Scott Pruett who has driven the LFA for 14,000 mile over 2 years with 90% on the track has always had high praises for the transmission particularly on the track. Tiff Needell is the other one.

Avatandor has not been tested by anyone yet, so there is nothing I can say about it. I only once read Evo calling the shifts "savagely violent".

This video gives the best perspective of the "urgency" of Lexus LFA's transmission shifts under full throttle load:




I posted this before from CarAndDriver:

The Lexus feels more athletic than the Ferrari, and its performance is more accessible, more immediately. The engine is remarkable. Austin noted: “They  figured out the engine. It’s really strong, and then you hit about 6500 rpm and your eyes get all big as the power hits another level.” The only street-car engine that matches this one for smoothness, ecstatic noise, and power delivery is the 458 Italia’s.

One of the LFA’s coolest features is the central tach that moves across the instrument binnacle. The color changes to white and the increments become bigger when the driver selects “sport.”

The steering is direct, accurate, and connected, and the whole chassis is balanced and entertaining. The LFA looks like a GT car on paper but acts more like a sports car—much like those great Ferrari two-seaters of  yore. The brakes are easily modulated and powerful, but the LFA gets tossed around by road-camber changes, and it tramlines more than the Ferrari.

Away from the twisting roads of Wales, the LFA lost a few points. It rides firmly on the highway, even though it’s never uncomfortable. The engine note is intrusive while cruising at 80 mph or more. And the transmission feels like it’s a decade or so behind the times. Used manually, it’s instantaneous, superbly fast and heroic. But around town in automatic mode, you can almost hear the gears mesh and the selector forks moving them into place. In essence, it feels like the Ferrari gearbox from the 360 Modena of two generations ago

These minor quibbles aside, the LFA is an amazing car—and an amazing achievement. Out of the box, Toyota’s first supercar beats a Ferrari. Yeah, you read that correctly. If Toyota put the same soul and *passion into the rest of its cars, the company would be unbeatable.

 

[Guibo]

I am not aware of GTO 599 having any quicker shifts than the standard HGTE 599.

Standard 599 is 100ms, HGTE reduces that to 85ms, GTO even further to 60ms. I'm fairly certain the GTO transmission is indeed faster than the LFA's, but whether your typical customer can feel the magnitude of the difference between a 599 and LFA is open to debate.


Evo's Harry Metcalfe did indeed mention the incredibly brutal gearchanges on the Aventador. So did Steve Sutcliffe:
"...it’s a long way from swapping ratios as quickly or as smoothly as a Ferrari 458 or McLaren MP4-12C. As ever, Lamborghini has engineered the shifts to feel as dramatic as possible."

This does not mean "there is something wrong." Wrong implies an incorrect approach to a particular problem or application. IMO, this does not apply to the Lamborghini. Both Lambo and Lexus have specifically stated they chose the single clutch behavior for less weight as well as its brutal shifts which impart a sense of involvment and feedback to the driver, the feeling that for each input action, he receives a corresponding reaction from the vehicle. Lamborghini, being under the VAG umbrella (which was among the first ever to bring a DCT transmission to market in the Veyron, and then to the lower sector via DSG in VWs), would have had ample access to the technology and obvious performance benefits of a DCT, yet they chose a complex single-clutch for the subjective quality it gives.

Simply because a car falls behind another car, accepted as the benchmark of a class, in a particular area does not mean "there is a problem." This would be like criticizing a tennis player who can't quite serve as fast as Nadal or Federer. What we would need to know more about is the car manufacturer's intent. If Lexus set out to build the fastest, smoothest transmission in the world, then we can certainly say there is a problem in failing to deliver on a promise. Now we must identify this claim.
The Mercedes SLS's transmission has been criticized even with its DCT advantage. Is that a problem? I don't think it is. In his review of the GTO for Car Magazine, Ben Barry said:
"Faults are few but present nonetheless. After the silky manners and rapid-fire changes we first experienced on the dual-clutch California, this gearbox feels outmoded as an auto. Floor it to overtake and it’ll stutter like Porky Pig saying ‘mane-mane-manetti – little lever’. There’s no hill-hold function so reversing up gradients can be fraught and smelly (poor clutch), and I’d suggest avoiding the multi-storey altogether."

Barry is a tad harsh in calling it a "fault." Is that a problem for anyone buying a GTO? I don't think it is. A GTO customer is looking for a very different driving experience than what the California delivers. Ferrari's 599s have failed to beat a Toyota product in 2 head to head tests on very demanding roads. Is that a problem? I don't think it is.
Each manufacturer brings to the table its own unique interpretation of what it thinks is an ideal performance car. Compromises have to be made. For Lexus, perhaps they felt it was better to spend resources on a transmission that can last 24 hours on one of the most punishing tracks on the planet. They could have produced a lighter CF monocoque, but at what cost to structural rigidity? The prototype LFA racers on the 'Ring received updates and additional bracing until the drivers were satisfied it met their requirements for rigidity. (Note: not until it met some benchmark for lap times.) Having seen numerous tests that comment on its drum-tight or anvil-like solidity, we can assume they were successful in that endeavor. What the internet magazine benchracers fail to understand is that Lexus now have some hands-on know-how in manufacturing CF in-house, which will help their everyday cars in the future meet ever stricter emissions regs. Ferrari meanwhile are content to leave it only for their super-limited exotic superscars, citing cost as a reason.
For every review that blasts the LFA's gearbox, you can probably find another that says it's fast enough or suits the car's character. Sure, it's not going to please everybody. But with only 500 being made, why should we be under the impression that they are trying to please everybody?

 

[Mafalda]

There is nothing wrong with it other than it being raw and less refined especially in city driving. It is a different approach like mentioned before than the "CVT smooth" approach of the dual-clutch transmission. Some would like it, others won't. Again, it is a matter of personal preference. I personally hated the M-DCT and VW DSG, but that is my preference.

Lexus has been racing the LFA in 24-hours endurance races with the bone stock ASG transmission.

I also disagree 99.9% people don't like the LFA tranny. BestMotoring and Winding Road's Tsuchiya San and professional race car driver went as far as calling it his "most favorite automated transmission" out of the one's he has driven. I posted the interview in the LFA thread. Grand Am champion Scott Pruett who has driven the LFA for 14,000 mile over 2 years with 90% on the track has always had high praises for the transmission particularly on the track. Tiff Needell is the other one.

thanks for nice video.
even so you cannot ignore the other magazines... in the latest LFA's review, Auto 100% dislikes its gerabox, calleing it "already old and a problem during the hotlaps on track", and QR during the fìrst drive was fully agree with auto...
if I remeber as well, Autocar dislikes it too...

for Guibo
Ferrari's 599s have failed to beat a Toyota product in 2 head to head tests on very demanding roadsIs that a problem? I don't think it is.
"
without polemics or arguments... About C&D, LFA beats 599 HGTE just for 1pt... (@ photofinish), about EVO, they claim LFA winner without a full review....
surely it show us the very good job about the LFA's chassis, handling, engine-reactivity and use friendly....

 

[Guibo]

thanks for nice video.
even so you cannot ignore the other magazines... in the latest LFA's review, Auto 100% dislikes its gerabox, calleing it "already old and a problem during the hotlaps on track", and QR during the fìrst drive was fully agree with auto...
if I remeber as well, Autocar dislikes it too...

for Guibo
Ferrari's 599s have failed to beat a Toyota product in 2 head to head tests on very demanding roadsIs that a problem? I don't think it is.
"
without polemics or arguments... About C&D, LFA beats 599 HGTE just for 1pt... (@ photofinish), about EVO, they claim LFA winner without a full review....
surely it show us the very good job about the LFA's chassis, handling, engine-reactivity and use friendly....

About Autocar, I don't think they specifically said the gearbox constitutes a problem. They said it's fast in the fastest setting, but brutal. And clumsy in the slower modes. Not as good as the 458 in this regard, but then few cars are. Not even McLaren, who had the benefit of time to benchmark against the 458 and actually made claims about being the new benchmark, could match the 458's transmission performance with its Ricardo-developed DCT. This is quibbling about a No.4 seeded tennis player's performance relative to a No.1 seeded player and concluding "there is a problem."

If we're not going to ignore QR's comments and Auto's (one of whom rather ridiculously claimed 4x's slower shift speeds than Lambo's e-Gear), then you should not ingore these comments either, mafalda:
"there’s a brutality to every upshift that suits this car’s no-compromise feel."
--Mat Watson, AutoExpress

"After another upshift, it’s obvious that this automated manual is crude compared to the twin-clutch box found in the Ferrari 458 Italia, but it’s so raw that it ends up adding character."
--Jack Rix, AutoExpress

"They've settled for just a single-plate clutch so the gearchange does take good old fashioned tenths of seconds rather than the milliseconds of the Ferrari, but engineers wanted that. They wanted a bit more feel, a more driver feel into the car. And I quite like the idea."
--Tiff Needell, 5th Gear

"The shifts are smooth and eye-blink quick in manual mode but become a bit clunky in the automatic setting. (This is the case with most single-clutch automated manuals.)"
--Car & Driver

"Though its sequential, paddle-shft auto is miles away from the latest dual-clutch systems, when it comes to shift speeds or smoothness, the LFA's 'box has a muscular, mechanical quality that suits the car's basic character."
--Jason Barlow, TopGear

"Getting back up to speed, the column-mounted paddles click up through the six-speed ASG gearbox remarkably fast. Shifts can come as quickly as 0.2 second in Sport mode, about as fast as any gearbox made, but they aren't at all brutal."
--Autoweek

"On the track, even the fastest [setting] isn't so fast as to be violent. Some might crave yet faster meshing of gearwheels but I reckon it's fine as it is. And the downshifts are a perfectly-blipped delight.
In automatic mode, the transmission surges and the clutch slips too much. Sport manual mode is best, even when ambling, because it's easier to modulate throttle against gear shift.*"
--John Simister, Evo

"...not all that quick by contemporary standards, but neither can you call it languid.
Tanahashi tried and then rejected a double-clutch gearbox, preferring the mechanical feel of a single clutch, paddle-shift system. He has a point. The physcial jolt during full-bore upshifts makes the car feel much more urgent and intense. So what if it demands careful use of the throttle at low speeds?* This is a hypercar, not a Lexus saloon. if you're paying the price of a pad in the country, you want some drama and intrigue.
The gearbox feels well suited to the engine's character, and downshifts are a sonic delight. It's also interesting to note that the force required to achieve a downshift with the shift paddle is marginally more than that required to upshift — a haptic detail insisted upon by Tanahashi-san."
--Alistair Weaver, Performance Car and edmunds

*Those last two points make me wonder how many of these mag testers even tried to adjust the throttle when shifting? According to many M5/M6 owners, the SMG transmission is considerably smoother when the driver learns to modulate the throttle while shifting. This is something that can take many hours or months to realize to its potential. Not likely something that mag testers pressed for time will find on their own.

Regarding Evo, they rarely ever claim a winner based on Bedford lap times. This is typical of an Evo road test comparo of two cars. Let's not underplay the fact that the LFA is Lexus's first legit attempt in the supercar arena (2000GT, although more exotic than the 240Z, was nothing much to talk about in the face of Ferraris and Jags of the time), while the GTO is the culmination of 60+ years of constant refinement and engineering know-how.

Regarding C&D, you make it sound like even matching the 599 is a simple feat. If it were so simple, everyone should be able to do it. It's a good thing for the Ferrari that C&D includes the same criteria they'd use for testing minivans and hatchbacks (like engine noise levels and luggage space). In many areas that tend to matter to exotic car enthusiasts, the Ferrari really got off pretty easy in that test. In the area where Ferraris tend to shine (Fun to Drive), the Lexus was rated higher, and its overall score doesn't reflect the incredible attention to detail, high build quality, and insane engine sound for which the LFA is normally noted. And to emphasis the (un)importance of its relatively poor transmission, here's their take on it:
"These minor quibbles aside, the LFA is an amazing car—and an amazing achievement."

 

[Mafalda]

About Autocar, I don't think they specifically said the gearbox constitutes a problem. They said it's fast in the fastest setting, but brutal. And clumsy in the slower modes. Not as good as the 458 in this regard, but then few cars are. Not even McLaren, who had the benefit of time to benchmark against the 458 and actually made claims about being the new benchmark, could match the 458's transmission performance with its Ricardo-developed DCT. This is quibbling about a No.4 seeded tennis player's performance relative to a No.1 seeded player and concluding "there is a problem."

If we're not going to ignore QR's comments and Auto's (one of whom rather ridiculously claimed 4x's slower shift speeds than Lambo's e-Gear), then you should not ingore these comments either, mafalda:
"there’s a brutality to every upshift that suits this car’s no-compromise feel."
--Mat Watson, AutoExpress

"After another upshift, it’s obvious that this automated manual is crude compared to the twin-clutch box found in the Ferrari 458 Italia, but it’s so raw that it ends up adding character."
--Jack Rix, AutoExpress

"They've settled for just a single-plate clutch so the gearchange does take good old fashioned tenths of seconds rather than the milliseconds of the Ferrari, but engineers wanted that. They wanted a bit more feel, a more driver feel into the car. And I quite like the idea."
--Tiff Needell, 5th Gear

"The shifts are smooth and eye-blink quick in manual mode but become a bit clunky in the automatic setting. (This is the case with most single-clutch automated manuals.)"
--Car & Driver

"Though its sequential, paddle-shft auto is miles away from the latest dual-clutch systems, when it comes to shift speeds or smoothness, the LFA's 'box has a muscular, mechanical quality that suits the car's basic character."
--Jason Barlow, TopGear

"Getting back up to speed, the column-mounted paddles click up through the six-speed ASG gearbox remarkably fast. Shifts can come as quickly as 0.2 second in Sport mode, about as fast as any gearbox made, but they aren't at all brutal."
--Autoweek

"On the track, even the fastest [setting] isn't so fast as to be violent. Some might crave yet faster meshing of gearwheels but I reckon it's fine as it is. And the downshifts are a perfectly-blipped delight.
In automatic mode, the transmission surges and the clutch slips too much. Sport manual mode is best, even when ambling, because it's easier to modulate throttle against gear shift.*"
--John Simister, Evo

"...not all that quick by contemporary standards, but neither can you call it languid.
Tanahashi tried and then rejected a double-clutch gearbox, preferring the mechanical feel of a single clutch, paddle-shift system. He has a point. The physcial jolt during full-bore upshifts makes the car feel much more urgent and intense. So what if it demands careful use of the throttle at low speeds?* This is a hypercar, not a Lexus saloon. if you're paying the price of a pad in the country, you want some drama and intrigue.
The gearbox feels well suited to the engine's character, and downshifts are a sonic delight. It's also interesting to note that the force required to achieve a downshift with the shift paddle is marginally more than that required to upshift — a haptic detail insisted upon by Tanahashi-san."
--Alistair Weaver, Performance Car and edmunds

*Those last two points make me wonder how many of these mag testers even tried to adjust the throttle when shifting? According to many M5/M6 owners, the SMG transmission is considerably smoother when the driver learns to modulate the throttle while shifting. This is something that can take many hours or months to realize to its potential. Not likely something that mag testers pressed for time will find on their own.

Regarding Evo, they rarely ever claim a winner based on Bedford lap times. This is typical of an Evo road test comparo of two cars. Let's not underplay the fact that the LFA is Lexus's first legit attempt in the supercar arena (2000GT, although more exotic than the 240Z, was nothing much to talk about in the face of Ferraris and Jags of the time), while the GTO is the culmination of 60+ years of constant refinement and engineering know-how.

Regarding C&D, you make it sound like even matching the 599 is a simple feat. If it were so simple, everyone should be able to do it. It's a good thing for the Ferrari that C&D includes the same criteria they'd use for testing minivans and hatchbacks (like engine noise levels and luggage space). In many areas that tend to matter to exotic car enthusiasts, the Ferrari really got off pretty easy in that test. In the area where Ferraris tend to shine (Fun to Drive), the Lexus was rated higher, and its overall score doesn't reflect the incredible attention to detail, high build quality, and insane engine sound for which the LFA is normally noted. And to emphasis the (un)importance of its relatively poor transmission, here's their take on it:
"These minor quibbles aside, the LFA is an amazing car—and an amazing achievement."

about autocar they said "Average gearbox performance"....
QR said: "slow when you want to go fast, not smooth when you want to go slow"....
and the LFA still the slowest supercar in 560-570ps-zone.
slower than: 458, Lp560, LP570, SLS, 997 TTS.... WHY?
..about c&D... the 599 if I rember as well, was one one the worst acceleration ever
and I remeberi when Auto tested the LFA, you was so happy for the final score (SC.net)
LFA 170 Vs Murci SV 163
cockpit: 9.5 vs 7.5
clima: 9 vs 8...
fuel economy: 6.5 vs 5...
even so this was the past, looking for the future... , is coming the QR's supertest, I hope there'll be the LFA too. surely there'll not the same criteria they usually use for testing minivans and hatchbacks ....

 

[Guibo]

about autocar they said "Average gearbox performance"....
QR said: "slow when you want to go fast, not smooth when you want to go slow"....
and the LFA still the slowest supercar in 560-570ps-zone.
slower than: 458, Lp560, LP570, SLS, 997 TTS.... WHY?

QR's assessment...which mode did they use? Which transmission speed? "Slow when you want to go fast" is something of an outlier result against those numerous sources I listed up there, wouldn't you agree? Did they try to modulate the throttle to smooth the shifts?
6 speed vs 7-speed DCT in some of those cars.
More drag than those other cars. Less torque than some. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND YET?

..about c&D... the 599 if I rember as well, was one one the worst acceleration ever
and I remeberi when Auto tested the LFA, you was so happy for the final score (SC.net)
LFA 170 Vs Murci SV 163
cockpit: 9.5 vs 7.5
clima: 9 vs 8...
fuel economy: 6.5 vs 5...
even so this was the past, looking for the future... , is coming the QR's supertest, I hope there'll be the LFA too. surely there'll not the same criteria they usually use for testing minivans and hatchbacks ....

Doesn't matter if it was the worst acceleration ever. The LFA was tested on the same surface in the same weather conditions with the same driver.

About Auto, don't forget these:
LFA vs LP670
Steering: 9.5 vs 9.0 (despite electric setup!)
Stability: 9.5 vs 7.5
Quality: 8.0 vs 7.5

Aren't these desirable qualities in a performance/supercar? I'll bet they are. And that LP670 got off easy too. 10 for Motor vs 9.0? LOL. Only in Italian mags I guess. And in Quality too; the LP670 is based on ancient steel-frame architecture with some switchgear that looks borrowed from Audi. The Lambo got points for price (as if most supercar buyers care so much), yet no points to the LFA for exclusivity? If the LFA got points for minivan and hatch criteria, then so did the Lambo! The point being, if the LFA is "the most useless supercar ever" as you initially claimed (and still believe, apparently) then what does that say about the most potent V12 Lamborghini which has had decades of constant engineering and refinement (plus helpings from Audi's coffers), yet scores lower than the the Lexus even in an Italian mag?

BTW, I only bring up those points when you said there was nothing good in the LFA test by Auto. Quite obviously, you left out a lot of information that suggested the contrary.

 

[330CIZHP]

That is seriously a ridiculous post, mafalda. Could you be a bit more biased?? So just because LFA beat the 599 GTB HGTE in acceleration tests by a tad bit on the same day and same elevation (South Wales), means there was something mechanically wrong the 599 GTB HGTE then??

If how you continue to bring in your QR magazine review as the holly grail for the transmission and disregard the actual real world dyno accelerometer measurements, what videos audibly tell anyone using common sense and all the other reviews then I ask you why is LFA one of the quickest cars around a challenging high-speed race track around Nurburgring clocking a 7:22 on a conservative run despite not being on Corsa or Cup tires?? What about the record quickest laps ever on Circuit De Nevers, France and Goodwood race track??

Not every car is built for numbers. If Lexus truly wanted the best numbers, they could have started by fitting it with custom-built Corsa or Cup or Super Sport tires, but instead they went with relatively modest setup of Potenza tires that worked well for road noise levels, far more resistant to hydroplaning and daily comfort since daily driving was a priority on the standard LFA.

Many of these test numbers clocking such as, mid-11s in the 1/4 mile were achieved without using the launch control and any Corsa or Pilot Cup tires or other high grip tires. Does that not give you enough hint of how quick the car is??

You have been through all of that before in the LFA thread. Are we really going to have all of that debate again??

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about autocar they said "Average gearbox performance"....
QR said: "slow when you want to go fast, not smooth when you want to go slow"....
and the LFA still the slowest supercar in 560-570ps-zone.
slower than: 458, Lp560, LP570, SLS, 997 TTS.... WHY?
..about c&D... the 599 if I rember as well, was one one the worst acceleration ever
and I remeberi when Auto tested the LFA, you was so happy for the final score (SC.net)
LFA 170 Vs Murci SV 163
cockpit: 9.5 vs 7.5
clima: 9 vs 8...
fuel economy: 6.5 vs 5...
even so this was the past, looking for the future... , is coming the QR's supertest, I hope there'll be the LFA too. surely there'll not the same criteria they usually use for testing minivans and hatchbacks ....