End of the DCT is Near?!

[PanterroR]

Has the time of the BMW Dual Clutch Transmission come and gone? Sources are indicating that the recently introduced DCT may be such a niche product that its time may be short lived. Porsche is feeling the same way with the famed PDK. The dual-clutch setup is fantastic in its implementation but remains an extremely niche product. According to Automotive News, transmission specialist ZF Friedrichshafen AG does not see a mass market for the dual-clutch technology that is sells to Porsche. Part of the issue is the cost to performance proposition of building a DCT that can handle lots of torque. With today’s performance cars increasing torque exponentially it leaves little market for the DCT.

With the introduction of the X5 and X6 ///M versions using a technically updated automatic transmission and cylinder deactivation to produce shifts as fast as a DCT the writing was on the wall for a possible end to the BMW DCT. What this means now is that in the short term we will more than likely not see future products offered with a DCT, with a shift to 8 speed automatics across the line by 2013. We have been told not to assume anything in regards to current offerings but that the ///M3 and DCT are a perfect match.

All you F10 ///M5 anticipators take note- this seals the deal that a DCT will NOT be in that vehicle!


Stay tuned for more updates as we get them!



Source: BimmerFile Archive - End of the DCT is Near

 

[Sayyaaf]

I don't know what to say .. but I really feel that double clutch technolgy is much better than Autotrannys from a driver point of view .. Autos can be fast but there is still smoothness in the shifts no matter how fast they are but with double clutch (PDK in Porsches) .. it can be "breaking your nick fast" and smooth at the same time ..

 

[Zafiro]

LoL I wouldnt be surprised if BMW are the only ones with no DCT gearboxes in the future.

 

[klier]

^^ You have a serious problem with BMW Very funny

Either way, this news sucks balls. DCT is the best invention since power steering. Torque is a big problem though!!!

I have driven many times in a VW Golf GTI with DSG (tuned to 250 hp), and a couple of times in a 997 Mark II Targa 4S PDK, and I love it so much.

So, back to SMG then? SMG IV and F10 M5, here we come???

 

[ACE]

The end of DCT seems very unlikely to me. Especially when looking at the rationale given in this article. Torque limits of DCT are well known but the Veyron had DCT without a problem (ok, that DCT was very expensive!). The Panamera Turbo has 700Nm with PDK. The 911 Turbo is getting PDK. The GT-R has DCT and the list is growing. DCT is being sold in more and more cars due to it's efficiency and performance benefits. Many of these are small cars like GTis. When the hell is a GTi going to have too much torque for DCT? Costs decrease with economies of scale. Also, more demand = more investment in DCT technology.

imo, DCT is here to stay (until something better comes along, that is). So BMW probably aren't going to use DCT in the F10 M5, that hardly spells the end of DCT, but it does make me quite excited to think about exactly how much torque the F10 M5 is going to have!

 

[south]

And this tells us that the next M5 won't have a DCT because?



Best regards,
south

 

[Poverty]

The massive difference DCT makes to a car is unbeliveable in a straight line drag race against a manual.

However from a serious sporting point of view im not sure that the system has been yet perfected in the more miantstream vehicles to warrant me to ditch my manual box as of yet.

The day that it does and you do get to have FULL control over the system as and when you wish via the paddles, and the boxes get more reliable and cheaper to replace and service, I too will convert over. Another 5 years to go then

 

[NarutoRamen]

May be they should ask Nissan? Besides the launch control issue, Nissan's dual-clutch can handle loads of torque. Hell stillen managed to up the HP and torque of the GT-R while still using the dual-clutch tranny from what I can tell.

 

[Cashmere]

with the X5/X6 M, BMW clearly put in a half arsed effort, hence the auto transmissions. It doesn't make sense to revert back to auto from DCT. If the panamera can handle a dual clutch transmission, I see no reason why the forthcoming M5 cant.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Having an auto transmission in the X5/X6 M isn't such a big deal considering the whole package is the antithesis of a traditional 'M' car. It would be a problem in the new M5 though.

 

[braaf]

Guys I don't think it's about the DCT gearbox handling the torque at all as there are many examples that disproves that theory, however it's about the cost of DCT thats the problem.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Guys I don't think it's about the DCT gearbox handling the torque at all as there are many examples that disproves that theory, however it's about the cost of DCT thats the problem.

Yeah, but if manufacturers start moving away from Autobox to Dual clutch, it will bring down the price.

 

[vabboud]

i think the fact a DCT was previewed in the Vision Efficient Dynamics more or less kills these rumours. if anything DCT will become a sstaple at the lower end of the spectrum, it is more fuel efficient that any alternative currently exsiting bar the CVT which is still very early in its development cycle to be a credible alternative to anything.
the usage of a DCT in an M is debatable, since time and experience have taught us that M employs the most proper tech for its cars, SMG III took arguably millions in development yet it was judged insufficient for the M3, and was used exclusively in the M5/6.
the usage of a slushbox in the M X's is another example of that.

currently DCT's make most sense at the lower end of the spectrum where high volume brings down prices, and where they can be easily used in marketing to advertise higher green credentials for already frugal cars.

aa bit like the VAG strategy (though it pains me to say that). unlike a lot of tech, DCT will spread upwards not downwards accross the lines.

 

[Wunderkind]

The problems right now for Double Clutch Transmissions (DCT) are that of cost and weight.

Take the Mercedes-AMG MCT transmission (which is not a double clutch transmission in the traditional sense) as an example. It is about 45-50kg lighter than an equivalent torque-rating DCT.

I think the main challenge is for the engineers to make DCT less complicated (thus cheaper) and standardise the components by torque-rating so car manufacturers can buy on a them-off-the-shelf basis. Mercedes-AMG and ZF had to repackage the DCT into a transaxle layout for the SLS and that's probably where the money went to.

DCT's will not disappear. They will take another 5-10 years to filter down to cheaper models. Just like ABS and traction control systems did a decade ago. Good technologies don't just die. They always find a way to come to the market.

As for speculations that BMW will dump the DCT from their line-up. I'm not so sure.

 

[Bilal]

We have a DCT in our VW Golf VI 1.4 TSI; a fraction less smooth than a CVT/traditional auto, but the instant gearshifts and throttle blips (S Mode) on downshifts make it more than worthwhile.

In summary: DCT is the future.

 

[NarutoRamen]

We have a DCT in our VW Golf VI 1.4 TSI; a fraction less smooth than a CVT/traditional auto, but the instant gearshifts and throttle blips (S Mode) on downshifts make it more than worthwhile.

In summary: DCT is the future.

I thought the Golf's dual clutch was praised for being smoother than the auto?

 

[Mr Robert]

Tune the turbo engines to deliver less torque than they could and make the transmissions lighter. Problem solved.

Turbo technology brings us the nemesis of driving pleasure - weight.

 

[martinbo]

Tune the turbo engines to deliver less torque than they could and make the transmissions lighter. Problem solved.

Turbo technology brings us the nemesis of driving pleasure - weight.

Dr. D, I somewhat disagree with that statement...[reconsiders] Actually, I completely disagree with that statement!

Turbocharging, in principle, has no tangible bearing on weight. Customers' insatiable appetites for ever-increasing engine outputs do. So, customers expect a car to push out 700 Nm these days - turbocharging merely facilitates this requirement whilst helping keep the engine weight down on what would invariably be a large capacity, heavy NA engine. All that turbo'ing does is increase the volumetric efficiency and specific outputs of an engine.

My Forester is lighter, more fuel efficient, faster and more versatile than an equivalently specced NA inline 6 X3 precisely because of its lighter, more frugal, turbocharged 4 cylinder engine. It's only when customers start demanding Cayenne-beating engine outputs from the X5Ms that the net result (most easily achieved with turbocharging) necessitates the application of heavier-duty drivetrain componentry.

I think that DCTs and turbocharging is a match made in heaven. As long as the engine isn't some 4.x litre V8 twin turbo pushing enough torque to pull a frigate.

 

[Mr Robert]

I think that DCTs and turbocharging is a match made in heaven. As long as the engine isn't some 4.x litre V8 twin turbo pushing enough torque to pull a frigate.

I fully agree with you. That is the problem.

A small I4 TC engine, like the one in my MCS is the perfect implementation of the turbo technology. This is also where the benefit for the bigger picture can be made, at the masses. TC on cars that are only marginal in terms of sales and usage makes no change at all to the environment, the implementation is only made for political reasons.

However, I still think that a car delivering more torque will be heavier because everything will have to be made stronger. But that is just me trying to be logical.

 

[klier]

May be they should ask Nissan? Besides the launch control issue, Nissan's dual-clutch can handle loads of torque. Hell stillen managed to up the HP and torque of the GT-R while still using the dual-clutch tranny from what I can tell.

Or Porsche.