Detroit News - BMW business model crunches gears as models expand, profit falls

[coolraoul]

All this is getting tedious. BMW SUVs are NOT dampening their sporty image AT ALL. Infact they make some of the best handling SUVs on the market, as far as sporty trucks actually go. Also the rivals who are so-called waiting to nick the 'sporty crown' are releasing SUVs of their own arent they?

If BMW were neglecting their core principles in their principal market segments, then maybe there would be something to worry about. They arent! Infact, if im to be honest its getting 'better'. And its these core values that have bestowed the image BMW has today, and is maintaining. Canceled CS concept, SUVs or not

So if BMW release a kind of Sprinter and say "it's the sportiest of the mid-trucks", you'll be happy as hell and honestly think that having the sporties of the trucks will boost BMW's image?

And after that, BMW will release an Actros-like truck, as the sportiest of course, and you'll jump to the roof in happiness?

These SUVs and crossovers are merely ways to get money, that's all. Just like Porsche's Cayenne, MB's A-B-R class. They don't do the image any good. The sportiest of the SUVs is far from having the same image as a 3er or 5er, honestly.
However, an halo-car can counterbalance this effect, that is why MB build them, and Audi is doing it to build its non-existent image in the US. BMW STILL is perceived as the sportiest. However, with Audi's latest products, it is not sure that it will stay so.

In today's apparence-is-what-matters world, a sportier drive is not enough. It will fidelize the drivers who know their stuff, but they are not really the majority.
If BMW does not build anything truly dreamy, they better draft sportier-looking cars than what Bangle usually gave us to stay on top of their game.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

appearance is what matters? Have you actually seen what BMW is producing lately? X6 not sporty enough looking? Ever compared a X5 to a Q7? Or a 3 series to a A4 or a C-class.

That's what BMW is doing, bringing sport to every segment, not just the niche's. And it made them the nr1 Luxurybrand in the world.

 

[coolraoul]

appearance is what matters? Have you actually seen what BMW is producing lately? X6 not sporty enough looking? Ever compared a X5 to a Q7? Or a 3 series to a A4 or a C-class.

That's what BMW is doing, bringing sport to every segment, not just the niche's. And it made them the nr1 Luxurybrand in the world.

X6 yes, e90 not really. X5 or X3, not at all, even worse the e60.
And if when you say BMW, it's a SUV that comes to mind, whereas for Audi it's a sporty-looking sedan, then it'll be settled. This the risk, to associate BMW with a SUV instead of a sedan.

I know it won't happen, I believe SUVs sales will fall. But thing is, Audi is sportier than ever, and have halo-cars.

Again, BMW did not need halo-cars when they were alone. It is not the case any more, so they can't stay like that. Remember, if you don't go forwards you go backwards? Well I have the feeling that BMW is not really going forwards, they're playing it too safe imo.

 

[kexo006]

Do you judge sportiness of a car by it's design or how it drives?

 

[RikfromBelgium]

X6 yes, e90 not really. X5 or X3, not at all, even worse the e60.
And if when you say BMW, it's a SUV that comes to mind, whereas for Audi it's a sporty-looking sedan, then it'll be settled. This the risk, to associate BMW with a SUV instead of a sedan.

I know it won't happen, I believe SUVs sales will fall. But thing is, Audi is sportier than ever, and have halo-cars.

Again, BMW did not need halo-cars when they were alone. It is not the case any more, so they can't stay like that. Remember, if you don't go forwards you go backwards? Well I have the feeling that BMW is not really going forwards, they're playing it too safe imo.

Did I only mention SUV's? No I did not. As for the new 3 series FL, widely accepted as the sportiest choice. For god's sake, even the 7 series has been said to be very sporty, a real tour de force for a car in that segment. Or do you believe a 7 series handling like a 3 series is just everyday.

Audi may be sportier than they were before ( not sportier yet than a BMW ), and have a Halo car, but you're forgetting one crucial thing: they have NO IMAGINATION whatsoever. So right now the might be flying but when people start realizing that they actually have been selling the same car the last 8 years, but in different sizes, things might change.

About SUV"'s: they might just bring that SUV convertible they had as a concept some years ago. Or another allroad version of another car ( like the A4 they have been testing )
Audi is, IMO, not booming because they are sportier, or because the don't go the SUV road ( which they also do ) but because they have a very nice design that they just don't seem to be able to let go. That will hurt them in the long run, and if that isn't playing safe, I don't know what is.

 

[justanthony]

So if BMW release a kind of Sprinter and say "it's the sportiest of the mid-trucks", you'll be happy as hell and honestly think that having the sporties of the trucks will boost BMW's image?

And after that, BMW will release an Actros-like truck, as the sportiest of course, and you'll jump to the roof in happiness?

These SUVs and crossovers are merely ways to get money, that's all. Just like Porsche's Cayenne, MB's A-B-R class. They don't do the image any good. The sportiest of the SUVs is far from having the same image as a 3er or 5er, honestly.
However, an halo-car can counterbalance this effect, that is why MB build them, and Audi is doing it to build its non-existent image in the US. BMW STILL is perceived as the sportiest. However, with Audi's latest products, it is not sure that it will stay so.

In today's apparence-is-what-matters world, a sportier drive is not enough. It will fidelize the drivers who know their stuff, but they are not really the majority.
If BMW does not build anything truly dreamy, they better draft sportier-looking cars than what Bangle usually gave us to stay on top of their game.

Raoul i cant be bothered to argue all day about this bro. IF BMW (and its a BIG IF) were neglecting to make the cars that gave them their image in the first place sporty drives and pursuing SUVs then there would be a problem. For the last time they are not. Their core brands still very much carry the BMW DNA. So they make some trucks (and they make them sporty too by the way) and then suddenly they lose that image?? Unless im wrong it was MB who started the whole 'luxury SUV' thing wasnt it.

Without going on and on, anybody who knows about cars (and i dont mean that as a diss) knows BMW's sporty image is still intact. Thats what cars like the 335i, 535d, M5 and new M3 do for you. All this talk about halo uber sports car, please! A year ago no one even heard about the concept CS

 

[coolraoul]

Do you judge sportiness of a car by it's design or how it drives?

Me? By how it drives.
80% of the clients? By how it looks primilary, and by the image the car will give of them.

@Rik: BMW is still the sportiest, yes. But Audi looks and drives incredibly sporty, and the halo-car they have will boost this dynamic image. If BMW stands still, it's just a matter of time till Audi gets the "more sporty" image. Even if the drive is less involving...what 80% of the people won't notice at all.

Image and looks are imo more important today than how it drives.
It's just like our arguments about Audi's copy-paste job, or the design philosophy: nobody cares, bar us car nuts. People see the car, like it, buy it. Period.

Trust Audi to change the design of their cars when they feel people don't find it interesting enough.

All I said about BMW is that ditching the interesting products and only releasing SUVs is very sad, and that if the others don't follow this shy strategy BMW will loose some of their image to the benefits of the others. You can't have the least interesting line-up and pretend to have the better image.

 

[RikfromBelgium]

But how is the audi range interesting? The R8 is a very good car, but that's that.
Besides that they have sedans, coupe's, estates en suv's, that's that.

BMW has already one crossover, X6, another one on the way, PAS, new very challenging looking Z4.
Yes, the CS is a shame, but it's not the end of the world. Their line up is still waaaaaay more interesting and diversified than audi's. Combined with the sportier drive and the individual approach to each model,... they keep the advantage.

Let's also not forget that, altough they have an extensive X-line up, efficient dynamics is now a well known brand name. BMW is the greenest luxury brand out there. A fleet of hydrogen 7 series is waiting to be sold, hybrid X6 almost finished and if a Halo car is that important to you, and you do believe that suv's are hurting BMW that much, the 7 series H should ease your mind.

Audi on the other hand, very very silent in that department.

 

[coolraoul]

Audis are sporty-looking, the R8 is getting a lot of buzz, AUdi is marketing their Le Mans and DTM sucess very well. They obviously want to be seen as sporty.

I only say that BMW should take them seriously. And that if they ditch all the interesting projects while Audi doesn't, well... Everything can happen. It's not only the CS, it's that BMW seems too much SUV oriented for its own good. I don't knoiw what their projects are, but if they continue like that (Scott seemed to say a lot of 1-Series variants were on their way), and if Audi goes on like they do (R8 V10 and co), well I can't see BMW staying the king of sporty with a bunch of 1-Series and some SUVs against R8s, RS-by-Porsche monsters and co. The new S4 seems to announce a very very interesting RS4, too...


I only say: if you don't go forwards you go backwards. BMW, don't play it too safe. That's all I say! Not more!

 

[warot]

Raoul i cant be bothered to argue all day about this bro. IF BMW (and its a BIG IF) were neglecting to make the cars that gave them their image in the first place sporty drives and pursuing SUVs then there would be a problem. For the last time they are not. Their core brands still very much carry the BMW DNA. So they make some trucks (and they make them sporty too by the way) and then suddenly they lose that image?? Unless im wrong it was MB who started the whole 'luxury SUV' thing wasnt it.

Without going on and on, anybody who knows about cars (and i dont mean that as a diss) knows BMW's sporty image is still intact. Thats what cars like the 335i, 535d, M5 and new M3 do for you. All this talk about halo uber sports car, please! A year ago no one even heard about the concept CS

You just can't win man. This is coming from a board that complained that the X5 was TOO sporty to be an SUV... and that it wasn't comfortable enough.

OK, so let me get this straight. When BMW had the Z8, aka the halo car at that time, their image was sportier than now?

Z8 era notables in terms of sportyness (image):
E46 M3, E39 M5...add other cars here

Now:
135i --> people rave about the cars performance (hell even to the Cayman)
E9x M3 --> has won almost all comparison tests
M5
M6
Z4M
just to name a few

Oh did I mention you can now add BMW PERFORMANCE parts straight from the factory or through your dealership?

Not to mention that they are more involved in motorsports... F1, American Le Mans, Touring cars...

While they may have broadened their portfolio, imo not much has changed in terms of image.

Me? By how it drives.
80% of the clients? By how it looks primilary, and by the image the car will give of them.

Enough said. That's where you and I will be different.

 

[coolraoul]

Guess we'll just agree to disagree, then. We have different opinions, it's what makes discussions interesting! You agree with BMW's strategy, I regreat their reticence to release a dream-car.

To each his own!

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

I've been following change in the world economy and have greatly considered it's effects on the auto industry- it is my job after all!

The problem about the auto industry is that there exists a long lag time of approx. 4-5 years. That is, if a car company's executive were to approve the production of a new car, it will take approx. 4-5 years to get the car from that board meeting all the way through to driving out of the factory gates.

If you think about it, the state in which a car company is in (both financially and operations) is a result of the decisions and investments made 4-5 years ago.

Ofcourse car company execs make decisions that are short term i.e marketing, promotions, dropping a product line etc. but the major and most critical decisions are the ones that bear the long-term implications.

I know that members in this forum are criticising BMW for launching so many SAVs and "lifestyle" vehicles whilst launching so very few and- even canceling- sports car projects. So i ask them to cast their minds back to the economic environment 3-6 years ago where the economiy was so strong that no one even dared to fathom the problems we're enduring right now. A "lifestyle vehicle" was the must have product of that time. It made perfect economic sense because it could share the platform/modules of a core model. It was seen by the market as the perfect compromise between an SAV and a sedan/wagon. Not to mention the booming economies of China, Russia and India where demand for them had a lot of potential.

That is why BMW is launching the PAS and X5/X6M. Just accept it.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

As for BMW's business model, i would say that it's very sound and is better placed than most car companies to whether this economic storm.

I'll argue this later, gotta get back to work...