Chris Harris on Ferrari's media-manipulation

[Soup]

A perfect example of what happens in the real world non-scientific drag race between three supercars. Based on the results below the 458 should have pulled well away from the day-dreaming driver in the 997 Turbo but he didn't. And even if the Porsche in question was the Turbo S the Ferrari should still have pulled away.



Why?

Simple, the results for the 458 are manipulated.

We already know that video is full of poo-poo

Here's the real test with Ferrari's press car

 

[DeDe]

LOL! :roll2:

 

[footie]

If Ferrari had run this press race between the three it would have demanded a two second head start because it's their god given right.

 

[Guibo]

It's naive to think that Ferrari is the only manufacturer that does that. I bet you any money that Nissan does the same with the GT-R.

I'll bet you they don't. We don't see Nissan test engineers and drivers accompanying their cars for testing on anywhere the scale that Ferrari does. The first tests in UK mags were of bone stock customer cars with low miles, remember. They even sent Evo a GT-R on the wrong tires for their eCOTY comparo (which the GT-R won anyway despite the relative lack of precision). They've even sent a GT-R to C&D for testing that was slower than M3s in a straight line. When Randy Pobst tried a customer GT-R on track, he said it was much better than the press car Nissan provided.
I don't see Porsche, Nissan, BMW, GM, etc threatening customers either.

But Mercedes always tells the testers if the cars provided for the tests are different to the stock models.

Not necessarily. Remember the SL55 that smoked the competition a few years back? We did not learn until much later that it was running a development SLR engine.

 

[DeDe]

Not necessarily. Remember the SL55 that smoked the competition a few years back? We did not learn until much later that it was running a development SLR engine.

Horst von Saurma clearly stated in the SLS AMG-Supertest that the ABS-setup is different from the stock cars.

 

[Wunderkind]

Not necessarily. Remember the SL55 that smoked the competition a few years back? We did not learn until much later that it was running a development SLR engine.

Sorry, but I did not know of this. When was this?

The Ferrari Press Office have always threatened and coerced car magazines to publish positive reviews for Ferraris and Maserati's.

 

[DeDe]

Sorry, but I did not know of this. When was this?

It was back in 2001 when Auto Motor und Sport tested the SL55 AMG at Nardo and hit 325 km/h. The 0-300 km/h time was a sensational 32,5 s - however, I personally think it was due to the very cold weather (3 Degrees Celsius).

Many years later a private SL55 did 319 km/h at Nardo.

 

[Bilal]

SL55 AMG 0-300kph AMS Test 2001

Interesting to note that the date of the test was just over 9 years ago!

Yes, although the automotive world was stunned, that car was running the SLR's prototype engine 617hp. Although I don't have a link to confirm that, subsequent tests of the standard SL65 AMG by AMS in Nardo have shown it to do 0-300kph (186mph) in around 32 seconds which would show that the SL55 AMG had a similar power output when it it was being tested in 2001. Additionally, AMS also tested an SL65 AMG with 670hp a few years ago which was running the 65BS engine. See Dede for links and info; he is a the test champ!


BTW: Source is : JESMB (News)

21.12.2001 AMS testet 5 Superrenner, SL 55 AMG verblüfft ! Die AMS unterzog 5 Supersportwagen einem Härtetest und wollte testen wie schnell die Flitzer sind. Extra für diesen Test fuhren sie ins italenische Nardo um dort auf einer 12,6 km langen Rundbahn die Renner auf die Endgeschwindigkeit zu prüfen. Dabei war neben dem neuen SL 55 AMG V8 Kompressor (476 PS, 700 NM), der Lamboghini Murcielago (580 PS, 650NM), der Ferrari 550 Maranello (485 PS, 569 NM), der Aston Martin Vanquish (460 PS, 542 NM) und der Porsche GT2 (462, 620 NM). Das der SL 55 AMG von 0-300 km/h seine Konkurrenz um bis zu 30 Sekunden deklassierte, obwohl einige 100 PS mehr und 200 kg weniger hatten, verblüffte. Zudem lies sich es mit dem SL 55 AMG am komfortabelsten mit 300 km/h reisen. Der Anschaffungspreis war mit 124.000 € der günstigste. Auch die Topspeed, 2fach entriegelt (1. Sperre bei 250 km/h, 2. bei 300 km/h) konnte sich mit 325 km/h sehen lassen. Hier die Daten:

Modell Topspeed 0-300 km/h
SL 55 AMG 325 km/h 32,5 s
Lamborghini Murcielago 329 km/h 34,2 s
Porsche GT 2 315 km/h 40,9 s
Ferrari 550 306 km/h 61,2 s
Aston Martin Vanquish 316 km/h 55,0 s

 

[DeDe]

Interesting to note that the date of the test was just over 9 years ago!

Yes, although the automotive world was stunned, that car was running the SLR's prototype engine 617hp. Although I don't have a link to confirm that, subsequent tests of the standard SL65 AMG by AMS in Nardo have shown it to do 0-300kph (186mph) in around 32 seconds which would show that the SL55 AMG had a similar power output when it it was being tested in 2001. Additionally, AMS also tested an SL65 AMG with 670hp a few years ago which was running the 65BS engine. See Dede for links and info; he is a the test champ!

The SL65 AMG reached 338 km/h with higher tyre-pressure, normally it did 333 km/h (which is realistic, since a private-SL65 ran 332 km/h at the same place).
The 65's advantage is its 136-more-hp and 300-more Nm of torque. But it operates with a longer final drive and a higher Cw. Plus, it's nearly 80 kilograms heavier than the old SL55 AMG.

So, in my opinion the differences between these two up to 300 km/h are normal.


2001 SL55 AMG / 2004 SL65 AMG
Power: 476 hp / 612 hp
Torque: 700 Nm / 1000 Nm
Cw: 0,30 / 0,31 (according to Sport Auto)
Weight: 1974 kg / 2050 kg
Vmax.: 325 km/h / 338 km/h
0-100 km/h: 4,6 s / 3,9 s
0-200 km/h: 13,7 s / 12,0 s
0-300 km/h: 32,5 s / 31,9 s

 

[Soup]

 

[ich]

What about the Mercedes CL 500 with 4-matic? In the last test which were shown here by some magazines, it does the 0-62mpg acceleration in 4,6s?
This is "only" 0,3 seconds faster as official times, but damn, even an CL 63 or CL65 are just as fast as this??? I think a press car is always faster and better than a private one!

 

[DeDe]

What about the Mercedes CL 500 with 4-matic? In the last test which were shown here by some magazines, it does the 0-62mpg acceleration in 4,6s?
This is "only" 0,3 seconds faster as official times, but damn, even an CL 63 or CL65 are just as fast as this???

It is that fast - thanks to its great gearbox and linear power-output.
@ AMG's: traction is the answer to your question. Over 100 km/h they're starting to fly away from the CL500.

 

[Guibo]

The 65's advantage is its 136-more-hp and 300-more Nm of torque. But it operates with a longer final drive and a higher Cw. Plus, it's nearly 80 kilograms heavier than the old SL55 AMG.

So, in my opinion the differences between these two up to 300 km/h are normal.


2001 SL55 AMG / 2004 SL65 AMG
Power: 476 hp / 612 hp
Torque: 700 Nm / 1000 Nm
Cw: 0,30 / 0,31 (according to Sport Auto)
Weight: 1974 kg / 2050 kg
Vmax.: 325 km/h / 338 km/h
0-100 km/h: 4,6 s / 3,9 s
0-200 km/h: 13,7 s / 12,0 s
0-300 km/h: 32,5 s / 31,9 s

I'm not sure those reasons are enough. The aero differences are negligible and the weight difference is not much more than the weight of a passenger. Which has very little effect past 200. Yet look at the 200-300 time of that SL55 compared to the 65. Gearing might be a reason, yet the SL55 has longer gearing than the SLR, which is 230 kg's lighter, packs more power, packs more torque. And check the results between them, plus some other, newer cars that are clearly in a class above the SL55 (yet don't perform like it).

997 GT2 RS (620 PS, 700 Nm, 1395 kg) : 17.3
LP670 (670 PS, 660 Nm, 1655 kg): 18.1
599 GTB (620 PS, 608 Nm, 1748kg): 19.6
SLR (626 PS, 780 Nm, 1740 kg): 19.9
SL 65 (612 PS, 1000 Nm, 2050 kg): 19.9
SL 55 (476 PS, 700 Nm, 1974 kg): 18.8

Are we quite sure the SL55 runs in 599 GTB, GT2 RS, and LP670 territory? I find this hard to believe. I'd be interested to know how fast tuned SL's (Brabus, etc.) have run.

 

[DeDe]

Maybe you're right. Here's what I've found:

This 655-hp-Väth SL600 is nearly 10 seconds slower up to 300 than the stock 612-hp-SL65 AMG (press car probably...)

 

[Centurion]

It's naive to think that Ferrari is the only manufacturer that does that. I bet you any money that Nissan does the same with the GT-R.

You are very right my friend.

Contrary to popular belief journalists are not high income earners, especially freelance writers. I have worked in the publishing industry and journalists happily engage in publicity deep-throating to please advertisers like Ferrari. I can picture people like Chris Harris frolicing over a free key key ring or distracting himself with a Ferrari colouring book complimentary with green, yellow and red crayons while mechanics a few feet away, get down tot he nitty gritty of tuning a stock 599GTO.

Writers for outlets such at Car&Driver or Edmunds cannot afford the exotics they test and thus the opportunity to drive for 1-2 days is a dream come true. You would be surprised what a free and luxurious life one can live as a journalists. However, freebies only come as a reciprocal gesture if give positive press. Positive press also leads to advertising deals and contracts and evidently this is what keeps a magazine afloat.

Chris Harris rant has without a doubt pissed off Ferrari and possibly even the Fiat Group and who ever he is working for cannot be happy about this. However, he's a high profile journalist but this sort of backstabbing gets people sacked. You don't bite the hand that feeds you, especially high profile clients like Ferrari.

Advertisers and journalists look out for each other and the cheating Chris Harris has unveiled is only the tip of the ice berg. 90% of what's in consumer magazines is paid for adverts. Even many innocent looking articles have an agenda behind them. Pleasing advertisers is a priority over satisfying readers.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

So I guess we shouldn't bother keeping track of - and discussing/debating to no end - any times recorded on the 'Ring ? ...especially since we're using magazine times as references.

 

[Centurion]

So I guess we shouldn't bother keeping track of - and discussing/debating to no end - any times recorded on the 'Ring ? ...especially since we're using magazine times as references.

Not necessarily. Some magazines are more objective than others. It's too difficult to detect which magazines are specific brand worshippers.

 

[TMCCL65]

I have read some of the articles by Chris Harris and seen some of his videos. A couple of his videos stand out to me because I noted how terrible his manual shifting was (BMW M3, GT3 and ZR1 are three prime examples).

Call me crazy, but I really doubt that Ferrari demanded that he ask them to provide permission first before he drives a non-factory Ferrari. I think he has crossed the line as a journalist. Instead of reporting on cars...he now wants to be the story instead.....

Anyway, here is a non-factory Ferrari 458 Italia being run by an owner on a drag strip. Supposedly, the car was being launched without LC being engaged (which looks to be the truth given the mediocre 60' time of 1.929s).

» Ferrari 458 Italia runs 11.22 @ 132.19 MPH at the Dragstrip - DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

A couple of things to note. The Ferrari 458 Italia's 1/4 mile trap speed is 132.19mph on this particular run. You have to remember that a drag strip averages the last 66' of the run with the use of timing lights. Most car magazines (with the exception being Edmunds Inside Line) uses the GPS trap speed at the 1/4 mile mark. A car magazine's trap speed can be upwards of 1.5mph higher than the one on a timeslip from the dragstrip. So a 132.19mph trap could be more like a 133.5mph magazine trap. I have run my Racelogic vbox at the dragstrip and have seen these differences first hand. So this particular 458 Italia is very...very fast, especially up top.

Quick...let's get Chris Harris to expose that this car was somehow factory prepared... because Ferrari knew the owner was going to take it down the 1/4 mile.

Tom

 

[Guibo]

Call me crazy, but I really doubt that Ferrari demanded that he ask them to provide permission first before he drives a non-factory Ferrari.

It's not as strange as it seems. Ferrari did something similar when the F50 was released, as noted by the Car and Driver road test. C&D got the OK from multiple F50 owners who agreed to testing, but when the test dates got close, the owners didn't go through with it. Ferrari had a talk with them, it seems.
The subject of Ferrari's concern for cars of "unknown provenance" was brought to light by Chris Harris when he worked at Autocar. They were going to test the 360 CS against the Porsche GT3 RS, both being customer cars. Before the test could happen, Ferrari had a word with the CS owner and the car was subsequently pulled. This was back in 2003, and I'm sure if were not true, Ferrari would have a very good libel case to consider. Who knows, we'll see if Ferrari pursue this further.

Regarding that 458 dragstrip test, that track is known as a fast one. A ZR1 reportedly trapped 3 mph faster than that, which would make it about 5 mph faster than the average from car mags.
But let's suppose all 458's are indeed that fast. Then why the need for Ferrari's engineers and test drivers and support trucks full of parts and tires at mag tests? The customer 458 being that fast only highlights Harris's point: that Ferrari are needlessly paranoid about the performance figures of their cars. And if they're not all as fast as this, perhaps there is a quality control issue at work here...

 

[LaArtist]

Bah..Ferrari..
They are rotten in F1.. Rotten in buisness..
Its cause they have brilliant management in from of Luca Di Montezelmo..a huge bastard!!!
And the biggest asset of the Agnelli family..
He is the motor worlds Luciano Moggi, and Ferrari are the motor worlds Juventus..( for those who know italian football)
And guess what agnelli owns and employes all 4..