CarAndDriver: Lexus LFA vs Ferrari 599 GTB HGTE Fiorano

[lambornima]

I quote my source and fully loaded it is about 4000 lbs. Furthermore, the Ferrari 599 GTB HGTE was tested as well and it weighed 4000 lbs also in MotorTrend tests.

Yes, the weight difference is in the ballpark of 500 pounds for comparable equipped cars and though my objective figure of 700 lbs was off and I stand corrected on that, but definitely the difference is in the ballpark of 500 lbs. GTR is the same where it can weigh between 3850 - 4000 lbs in tests depending on the equipment.

I did say LFA shaves off about 0.4 - 0.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile with a good launch control and it is indeed a fact (applies to any car tested with or without launch control).


LFA (Automobile magazine):

Acceleration
0-60 mph: 3.8 sec
0-100: 8.0
0-110: 9.7
0-120: 11.2
0-130: 13.1
0-140: 15.6
1/4-mile: 11.8 sec

Weight: 3450 lb

Yes when you take the single highest quoted weight for the 599 (3975) vs the lowest for the LFA (3450) the different is 500 lbs. Thanks. Its good to see your fair and unbaised about the objective figures

SportAuto, Autozeitung, AMS, Road and Track, Autocar, Quattroroute (sp?) etc etc all got 3850 lbs.

you see, the reason Im nitpicking about these weight figures comes down to your assumptions that "the LFA can keep up with a 599" because it will have LC and the weight difference is "this much". well your "this much" is wrong and thus half your argument falls apart.

 

[Guibo]

Why not compare it to the closest rival, the GTO?

Are you talking about Car & Driver?

 

[330CIZHP]

The highest tested weight in the sources I quoted for 599 GTB was 4000 lbs not 3975 lbs. There were two sources where it weighed 4000 lbs and one source where it weighed 3975 lbs. Do you have problems seeing??? Did I not write "Aston Martin DBS vs Ferrari 599 GTB" above?

.....

MotorTrend Ferrari 599 GTB (599 GTB vs ZR-1 vs GT2 vs GTR):

Curb weight: 3980 lbs

CarAndDriver Ferrari 599 GTB (599 GTB vs Aston Martin DBS)

Curb weight: 4000 lbs

MotorTrend Lexus LFA (LFA vs GTR):

Curb weight: 3560 lbs

Automobile magazine (LFA vs SLS AMG)

Test curb weight: 3460 lbs

....

You are instigating an argument here and I am doing my best to avoid it.

You are too skewed to realize the point of my post above, all I had been saying was a 100 - 150 lbs variance is typical in any car especially the one's where a lot of options that can be selected, which is why I gave the example of GTR where the variance is between 3850 - 4000 lbs. Even my own E46 has been tested at different weights from 3250 lbs - 3360 lbs.

The highest quoted test weight of the LFA was 3560 lbs and the lowest quoted test weight was 3460 pounds so far I have seen.

Yes when you take the single highest quoted weight for the 599 (3975) vs the lowest for the LFA (3450) the different is 500 lbs. Thanks. Its good to see your fair and unbaised about the objective figures

SportAuto, Autozeitung, AMS, Road and Track, Autocar, Quattroroute (sp?) etc etc all got 3850 lbs.

you see, the reason Im nitpicking about these weight figures comes down to your assumptions that "the LFA can keep up with a 599" because it will have LC and the weight difference is "this much". well your "this much" is wrong and thus half your argument falls apart.

 

[330CIZHP]

because we want to give the LFA a chance at least

LFA barely was privileged to get a chance against the HGTE in that review, but no cigars. Right. Keep those comments coming. Keep 'em coming.

Again, based on that ludicrous comment you made above, you are too big of a hater to realize LFA is not a competitor for the 599 GTO. Maybe, the Nurburgring edition LFA, but not the standard edition. Again maybe since Nurburgring edition is not much stripped down than the standard LFA.

When a car has gone through the process of stripping all the amenities and sound insulation out down to the welds, it no longer can be compared to a car that is carrying the weight of all the luxuries and amenities.

 

[lambornima]

The highest tested weight in the sources I quoted for 599 GTB was 4000 lbs not 3975 lbs. There were two sources where it weighed 4000 lbs and one source where it weighed 3975 lbs. Do you have problems seeing??? Did I not write "Aston Martin DBS vs Ferrari 599 GTB" above?





You are instigating an argument here and I am doing my best to avoid it.

You are too skewed to realize the point of my post above, all I had been saying was a 100 - 150 lbs variance is typical in any car especially the one's where a lot of options that can be selected, which is why I gave the example of GTR where the variance is between 3850 - 4000 lbs. Even my own E46 has been tested at different weights from 3250 lbs - 3360 lbs.

The highest quoted test weight of the LFA was 3560 lbs and the lowest quoted test weight was 3460 pounds so far I have seen.

ok whatever, take the highest quoted weight of the 599 3975 4000 lbs and only when you compare it to the lowest weight of the LFA is the difference then ~500 lbs.

The point of your posts was never to say "there is a 100-150 lbs varience", thats not even remotely where this argument started. the point of your weight quotes was to support your ludacris statement that "the LFA could keep up with a 599 in a straight line". You started off by saying the LFA was 600-700 lbs lighter, and when I disproved that you moved to 500-600 lbs and now you're giving your 500 lbs figure a leeway of 100-150 lbs.

sorry but I can see right through your BS.

You can call be a hater all you want, but I actually liked the LFA (save the price tag, but hey Im not gonna buy one) until I saw your utter bias towards it. and its not like Im comparing it to the LP670 anymore. I like the 599 but its certainly not my favourite car (ask mafalda ) so I started off in this thread with quite a balanced view.

Do car weights vary based on options? yes. you are not wrong on that point, but the fact that you took the highest quoted 599 weight and compared it to the lowest LFA weight speaks volumes on your balance in this argument.

If I was truly bias I would take the quickest 1/4 mile time for the 599 (11.2 @131 mph) and then compare it to the LFA's slowest of high 11s low 12s @ 123 mph.

 

[330CIZHP]

Even if you do that, you would only make yourself look bad since you would look at the hard facts.

Look at the power to weight ratio, look at the fact at how clearly LFA beats a consistent mid-11 second car like R-tronic R8 V10 and look at how it is continuously deemed a "rocket ship". It is almost impossible for a car with 124 - 126 mph to be running only 11.8 seconds since it is all about the first 60 foot that gives a fast start.

http://www.germancarforum.com/inter...edes-benz-sls-amg-vs-porsche-997-2-turbo.html

I have absolutely no hesitation in observing LFA has so far on test run 11.8 secs in every American test. However, the biggest missing element has been a proper way to launch, which is absolutely everything for any car to get off the line fast without too much wheelspin.

Now that the yellow prototype has been demonstrated to have a launch control, which allows it to get off the line fast enough without torching the rear tires, it needs to be re-tested by some American publication.

If I was truly bias I would take the quickest 1/4 mile time for the 599 (11.2 @131 mph) and then compare it to the LFA's slowest of high 11s low 12s @ 123 mph.

 

[lambornima]

look at how it is continuously called a "rocket ship"

 

[330CIZHP]

I am re-iterating what it was called by people who actually DROVE it. Not sat behind their keyboard and bashed a car due to their own pre-conceived stereotypes and their burning desire for a car to not be appreciated. That is what rally racer, drifter Tanner Foust called it, samething goes for Grand Am champion racer Scott Pruett and also did you miss that part in the C&D video I posted in this thread or just turned a deaf ear to it due to your sheer hatred. I am sure it was the latter.

 

[lambornima]

I am re-iterating what it was called by people who actually DROVE it. Not sat behind their keyboard and bashed a car due to their own pre-conceived stereotypes and their burning desire for a car to not be appreciated. That is what rally racer, drifter Tanner Foust called it and also did you miss that part in the C&D video I posted in this thread or just turned a deaf ear to it due to your sheer hatred. I am sure it was the latter.

Im not doubting that the car is a rocketship. Anything with 400+ hp is FAST and anythign with 500+ hp is REALLY fast.

But you state it as if the 599 and other cars arent described with such beautiful metaphors and adjectives and that it somehow hold objective value. thats what I laughed at.

Pre-convinced stereotypes? when the LFA came out I was actually thinking it would be 599 quick mainly because Lexus said it was gonna weigh 3200 lbs. its significantly heavier though and after seeing some tests I have changed my mind on the car.

Sheer hatred? You have no idea how I feel about the LFA. dont put words in my mouth. you are the one who is bias towards the LFA, which is fine since you like the car, but you are SO bias that my relative middle ground appears very anti-LFA to you.

 

[330CIZHP]

I love the 599 GTB. As a matter of fact, it is my most favorite Ferrari possibly of all times since it offers the best combination of all-out luxury and sports car performance and a $30,000 HGTE handling package should have made it worlds better. I would like GTO more, but it is too stripped down and too hardcore. So no you cannot pin that on me for being biased. I own a European car and actually never liked Lexus in anything aside the LFA (maybe, the old IS300 since it was the closest thing they created to the 3-series).

I am merely agreeing with exactly what the reviewers said where in this particular case LFA is my more favorite car.

p.s. Despite the usage of carbon fiber, LFA is carrying a lot of weight of luxuries down to 14 speakers. It was bound to be heavier than the 3263 lbs dry weight. I mean, 458 Italia's projected dry weight was 3100 lbs and yet, it weighed 3480 pounds in R&T test so did the the stripped out "Superleggera" at 3460 pounds.

Im not doubting that the car is a rocketship. Anything with 400+ hp is FAST and anythign with 500+ hp is REALLY fast.

But you state it as if the 599 and other cars arent described with such beautiful metaphors and adjectives and that it somehow hold objective value. thats what I laughed at.

Pre-convinced stereotypes? when the LFA came out I was actually thinking it would be 599 quick mainly because Lexus said it was gonna weigh 3200 lbs. its significantly heavier though and after seeing some tests I have changed my mind on the car.

Sheer hatred? You have no idea how I feel about the LFA. dont put words in my mouth. you are the one who is bias towards the LFA, which is fine since you like the car, but you are SO bias that my relative middle ground appears very anti-LFA to you.

 

[Mr Robert]

Are you talking about Car & Driver?

Yeah, wouldn't that have been a better duo?

 

[Guibo]

Yeah, wouldn't that have been a better duo?

I think so. Better yet, LFA Nurburgring vs 599 GTO. Those would be the most hardcore versions of each of these cars, both on R-compound semi-slick tires.

However, I'm guessing it would be extremely difficult for C&D to get their hands on a GTO for testing. When they tested the F430 against the Turbo and Z06 in Germany, Ferrari said they were too busy with the release of the 599 GTB to send them a car, so they used a private owner's F430. After C&D stuffed the standard GTB into a mountainside in bone dry conditions, I can understand how Ferrari would be reluctant to give them a GTO to test in wet conditions.

 

[Mr Robert]

Car and driver, in less than perfect harmony.

 

[lambornima]

I love the 599 GTB. As a matter of fact, it is my most favorite Ferrari possibly of all times since it offers the best combination of all-out luxury and sports car performance and a $30,000 HGTE handling package should have made it worlds better. I would like GTO more, but it is too stripped down and too hardcore. So no you cannot pin that on me for being biased. I own a European car and actually never liked Lexus in anything aside the LFA (maybe, the old IS300 since it was the closest thing they created to the 3-series).

I am merely agreeing with exactly what the reviewers said where in this particular case LFA is my more favorite car.

p.s. Despite the usage of carbon fiber, LFA is carrying a lot of weight of luxuries down to 14 speakers. It was bound to be heavier than the 3263 lbs dry weight. I mean, 458 Italia's projected dry weight was 3100 lbs and yet, it weighed 3480 pounds in R&T test so did the the stripped out "Superleggera" at 3460 pounds.

Perhaps this is the beef I have with the LFA, why would they go through so much trouble to make the car all CF, have a super light engine, and then put 14 speakers in the car? 8 way adjustable seats (probably heated and cooled as well). If someone wanted lots of luxury they could go buy a bentley. Lexus had the layout for a uberlight car and they messed it up.

When I first saw the LFA's claimed weight I looked at the IS-F and saw that the claimed weight of their site was a curb weight so I assumed the same for the LFA. Moreover, until now Ferrari and lambo have been the only ones claiming dry weights so wasnt expecting it.

If you like the 599 and want to keep a truly balanced approach to the cars, you would agree that comparing one car's highest quoted weight figure to the other lowest in order to prove a point, isnt balanced. This is why I have been so nitpicky about the weights you quoted.

 

[VoltageLeak]

Perhaps this is the beef I have with the LFA, why would they go through so much trouble to make the car all CF, have a super light engine, and then put 14 speakers in the car? 8 way adjustable seats (probably heated and cooled as well).

Because. It's. A. Lexus.

The whole idea was to make the package as light and responsive as possible without sacrificing the luxuries associated with the marque.

 

[lambornima]

Because. It's. A. Lexus.

The whole idea was to make the package as light and responsive as possible without sacrificing the luxuries associated with the marque.

boooooo! bad answer. way to not break out of a shell and make something extraordinary when they had the chance.

out of curiousity, could someone provide the options list of the LFA. Im curious as to what you can get that you cant in a 599.

 

[Guibo]

boooooo! bad answer. way to not break out of a shell and make something extraordinary when they had the chance.

out of curiousity, could someone provide the options list of the LFA. Im curious as to what you can get that you cant in a 599.

Well, it is pretty extraordinary. Most people who have driven it would agree. You mention the Bentley's luxury. Now imagine a Bentley with the driving involvement of a Scuderia and a soundtrack like the LFA's.

There are some things you get on a LFA that I'm pretty sure you don't on a 599: A much more sophisticated instrument display, seatbelt airbags, haptic feedback controls for the sat-nav (with rear-view camera) and transmission stalks, external reservoir shocks developed through grueling Nordschleife enduros, a counter gear set to lower the CoG of the drivetrain, active rear wing, a CF monocoque, a dedicated technician assigned to each car. Overall, the build quality seems to be on a higher level than the 599. One of the British mags, I think it was Car, wrote of the HGTE:
"The interior of the 599 is superb but not quite perfect. The gearshift paddles are wonderful shards of carbon fiber. Why, then, are the control stalks so mundane? And come to mention it, the ashtray is terribly cheap too. How much extra would it add to have bespoke indicator stalks or a nice metal and glass ashtray? Everything else in the car is so incredibly good, why cheapen it with oversights like this? It's nit-picking of course, but I should imagine most customers buying cars in this bracket are fairly discerning."

I don't think anyone's ever described the LFA interior like that. BTW, I think Lee Noble answered the question of bespoke indicator stalk costs. He mentioned in an interview that it cost quite a lot, even to have it molded in plastics, even to have existing stalks made in aluminum, which is why he opted for plastic Ford stalks. The LFA's stalks are "super-duper special" and machined from titanium.

 

[NarutoRamen]

boooooo! bad answer. way to not break out of a shell and make something extraordinary when they had the chance.

Isn't that the same BS thrown about with the SLR? I don't think anyone gave MB as much crap as Lexus is getting.

Oh wait...it's not European. Nevermind, I guess all the hate is fine. /sarcasm

Seriously. LF-A is getting way more crap than it should just because it's a Lexus.

I guess...

 

[lambornima]

Well, it is pretty extraordinary. Most people who have driven it would agree. You mention the Bentley's luxury. Now imagine a Bentley with the driving involvement of a Scuderia and a soundtrack like the LFA's.

There are some things you get on a LFA that I'm pretty sure you don't on a 599: A much more sophisticated instrument display, seatbelt airbags, haptic feedback controls for the sat-nav (with rear-view camera) and transmission stalks, external reservoir shocks developed through grueling Nordschleife enduros, a counter gear set to lower the CoG of the drivetrain, active rear wing, a CF monocoque, a dedicated technician assigned to each car. Overall, the build quality seems to be on a higher level than the 599. One of the British mags, I think it was Car, wrote of the HGTE:
"The interior of the 599 is superb but not quite perfect. The gearshift paddles are wonderful shards of carbon fiber. Why, then, are the control stalks so mundane? And come to mention it, the ashtray is terribly cheap too. How much extra would it add to have bespoke indicator stalks or a nice metal and glass ashtray? Everything else in the car is so incredibly good, why cheapen it with oversights like this? It's nit-picking of course, but I should imagine most customers buying cars in this bracket are fairly discerning."

I don't think anyone's ever described the LFA interior like that. BTW, I think Lee Noble answered the question of bespoke indicator stalk costs. He mentioned in an interview that it cost quite a lot, even to have it molded in plastics, even to have existing stalks made in aluminum, which is why he opted for plastic Ford stalks. The LFA's stalks are "super-duper special" and machined from titanium.

the luxury of a Bentley? please.

If I wanted to compare the LFA with say, a 458 and see what the LFA offers over it in terms of options, what are they? Im not asking about the specs of the car. what makes it a "bentley"?

 

[lambornima]

Isn't that the same BS thrown about with the SLR? I don't think anyone gave MB as much crap as Lexus is getting.

Again we go back 6-7 years for this...When the SLR was released, what was it compared to? The Carrera GT and Enzo. It was on their caliber. It was the GT that would keep up with the fasted supercars of the day. the LFA is being compared to cars that are technically inferior to it and in a completely different price bracket.

I think the perfect car to prove my point is the 458.