Reviews C&D: 2012 Audi A7 3.0T Quattro vs. 2013 BMW 640i Gran Coupe

[Deckhook]

Guibo we can argue this to death but what is the point, I'm only highlighting the fact that on every thread and in every test price is the crippling factor for the 6GC. You and BMW might believe it doesn't rival the A7 and CLS but most do and that's it's problem.

 

[Guibo]

"Most do."
Do you have any data from interested buyers that show this to be a fact? If the 6GC meets BMW's sales objectives, then who are you to say that that is a problem?
If you could kindly answer the question as to which A7 competes against the Panamera Turbo S, then we would not have to "argue this to death." Thanks.

 

[Deckhook]

^Well the RS7 isn't here yet so how can we discuss the Panny Turbo S?

Also you are comparing BMW with Porsche as if they can command the same price, the reality is it can't. It's like asking BMW to produce a ultimate luxury car and sell it under their own brand such a thing couldn't happen which is why they bought Rolls Royce, only certain brands can command prices beyond the sum of their parts.

Also meeting sales projections has little to do with whether something is perceived to be overpriced all that tells you is there are some (not many) willing to pay through the nose.

 

[Guibo]

The Panny Turbo S has been around for some time now...so where is the RS7? Do you honestly think the RS7 will bridge the gap from 62k S7 to 124k Panny Turbo S? It's an entirely possible that an RS model might cost 2x's what an S model costs, though I haven't seen it.

If what we've been hearing is true (markups on 6GC and little to no discounts on the 6GC), then it proves false your claim that BMW can't command the same price as Porsche. Isn't it entirely possible that part of BMW's goal is to get people used to this pricing strategy so that by the time the 6GC v2.0 rolls around, it's no longer the shock that many uninformed consider it to be? Even if the 6GC, in 2-3 years time, is sold at discount, it could still be a halfway point between Porsche and Audi sales, for which you've said there are already healthy markdowns for the A7. Have you noticed the price of an S8 or 760Li? These are not exactly being sold at Mondeo prices...

If there were some (not many) for which the car was designed in the first place, then where is the problem? Meeting sales projections has everything to do with meeting profit/marketing goals for a particular model and to BMW, that's what counts. Not some guys sitting on a random car forum debating whether they personally feel the car is overpriced or not. So you're right, meeting sales projections has squat to do with whether something is perceived to be overpriced based on the opinions of some members of GCF. So why does it continue to be so important to stress the latter, yet ignore the former?

Deckhook, you made the assertion that most people consider the A7 and 6GC as direct rivals. I asked you: "Do you have any data from interested buyers that show this to be a fact?" If you don't, please 'fess up and admit you're making this part up.

 

[Deckhook]

Guibo, can you deny that every magazine is comparing the A7/CLS with the 6GC or is this my imagination so when the so called press are comparing them then who are we to argue. As for this data you are demanding, please provide disproving my point...... you can't and neither can I.

 

[EnI]

BMW sold about 117,000 6ers (about 55% of coupes & 45% of cabrios) in the whole E63/64 life-cycle.
While MB sold 170,000 of much cheaper & popular "4dr coupe" W219 CLS cars in the whole W219 life-cycle.

So, BMW have had no troubles selling sports cars in Porsche price territory ... And F12/13 are expected to be even more successful, while F14 is expected to contribute significantly to the total 6er sales figures as well. Sure F1x 6er family won't sell on CLS & A7 level, yet it will reach & probably even exceed Panamera sales figures (~150k during the entire life-cycle).

Sure Panamera is offered in one variant only (5dr sedan), yet it's the only at least 4-seat & sedan model by Porsche, while BMW offers 5er sedan, 5er touring, 5er GT & 7er sedan additionally to 6er family cars. Meaning much more intrabrand competition, and even intrafamily competition (coupe, cabrio, gran coupe ...).

Guibo, can you deny that every magazine is comparing the A7/CLS with the 6GC or is this my imagination so when the so called press are comparing them then who are we to argue.

Magazines also compared 5er GT to CLS & A7 & Panamera, so ... Some even compared 5er GT to E-class wagon, and even to Infiniti EX etc. Mags can be very creative ...

Sometimes they compare cars by power, sometimes by size, sometimes by price, sometimes by shape, sometimes by car's purpose ... And not every time all the cars in comparison match all the mentioned categories. And then journalist go very creative ... comparing apples to oranges. Or even to potatoes.

I'm sure there will be comparison tests like 6er GC vs 5er GT, or 6er GC vs 7er SWB, or 6er GC vs 5er sedan etc available soon. Making conclusions like "6er GC is a very good car & it looks great, but 5er GT is much cheaper & more practical & more spacious & more comfortable ... and therefore it wins the comparison despite its goofy look."

They have to write about something, and they have to sell magazines, so ... The more controversial the article is, the better.

 

[Deckhook]

^I do get the point you are making here but on a personal level I feel the 6GC is priced too high, are there some who disagree well clearly there are but by the same token there are others in agreement with my view point. This car splits public opinion like few other.

I love the looks but the UK residuals of the old 6 series make me concerned that history will repeat itself.

 

[Guibo]

I love the looks but the UK residuals of the old 6 series make me concerned that history will repeat itself.

And yet BMW have not lowered the price of the new 6 Series. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Guibo, can you deny that every magazine is comparing the A7/CLS with the 6GC or is this my imagination so when the so called press are comparing them then who are we to argue. As for this data you are demanding, please provide disproving my point...... you can't and neither can I.

I don't have to provide any data. I'm not the one claiming "most" people (ie, >50%) are doing anything (other than admitting that the 6GC is comfortably outside of their price range, which has little bearing on those for whom the 6GC does fall within a comfortable price range). I don't care what press are comparing. I asked about people who are buying. Are you deliberately avoiding this question for a reason?

Sure Panamera is offered in one variant only (5dr sedan), yet it's the only at least 4-seat & sedan model by Porsche, while BMW offers 5er sedan, 5er touring, 5er GT & 7er sedan additionally to 6er family cars. Meaning much more intrabrand competition, and even intrafamily competition (coupe, cabrio, gran coupe ...).
Magazines also compared 5er GT to CLS & A7 & Panamera, so ... Some even compared 5er GT to E-class wagon, and even to Infiniti EX etc. Mags can be very creative ...
Sometimes they compare cars by power, sometimes by size, sometimes by price, sometimes by shape, sometimes by car's purpose ... And not every time all the cars in comparison match all the mentioned categories. And then journalist go very creative ... comparing apples to oranges. Or even to potatoes.
They have to write about something, and they have to sell magazines, so ... The more controversial the article is, the better.

Good points. It's incredible how some refuse to acknowledge this. There have been Gallardo vs WRX STi, Enzo vs hot hatches, Ford GT vs Focus RS, Mitsubishi FQ400 vs Zonda, ZR1 vs LP640/599, Evoq vs everything on the planet within 5k, GT-R vs 997 Turbo or M5 and even GT-R vs Veyron comparos. Doesn't mean these cars are direct competitors in the marketplace. There have been multiple SLS vs LFA comparos too, yet the volume and pricing disparity should tell anyone older than 10 years old who doesn't look starry-eyed at mag stats that there is no way these cars are competing against each other in the market. And indeed, AMG's own head guy said there is no competition between them. How many issues would these mags be selling if there were no words or pictures to accompany the dry stats? My guess is, not many.

 

[Deckhook]

And yet BMW have not lowered the price of the new 6 Series. That should tell you everything you need to know.

It tells me that selling cars and making the most profit is their sole concern and not how much money their customers will lose, though to be fare I reckon the 6GC will hold slightly better residuals than either the coupe or convertible.

 

[Guibo]

It tells me that selling cars and making the most profit is their sole concern and not how much money their customers will lose, though to be fare I reckon the 6GC will hold slightly better residuals than either the coupe or convertible.

Are you under the impression that BMW are in any way different from the other manufacturers mentioned in this regard?

 

[Hofmeister]

Why is it that people think the 6er is overpriced???? Its priced exactly the same as its competitors e.g. Jag XK, Maserati GranTurismo, Porsche 911 ? I fail to see how people simply cannot digest this information? BMW were left with no choice but to position the 6er where they did . And if people happily compare Z4/Boxster, X5/Cayenne then why cant they get it into their heads that the 6er GC and Panamera can also be compared. The BMW badge having less cachet than Porsches ( absolute B.S. ) is never cited in those cases, so why in this one?????

 

[Deckhook]

If you feel the Porsche badge isn't more prestigious than BMW then you are living in a dream world.

 

[Guibo]

If you feel the Porsche badge isn't more prestigious than BMW then you are living in a dream world.

Whether the Porsche badge is more prestigious is not necessarily the deciding factor. Simple fact is, there already are BMW (and Audi/MB) counterparts selling at Porsche prices. And since you are so enamored of magazine comparos, enough to lend them apparently more credibility than the way the market actually works, do recall that Autocar said the 640d was the better overall car than the Panamera diesel by way of indirect, sidebar comparison, while AutoExpress did indeed compare them side by side and declared the 6GC the better car (and the one that is likely to retain a higher residual than the others).
The Lamborghini badge is no more prestigious than Ferrari (much less prestigious, in fact), yet Lamborghini can sell Gallardo derivatives at F430/458 prices. You are so hung up on the "kudos" of badges as it regards Aston Martin (and Porsche)...how did that work out for your prediction that "when [Aston] build ultimate expensive and exclusive products they are snapped up very quickly" with regard to the Zagato? Oh yeah, that's right. Stopped at only 2/3rds the planned production.
It's a little ironic for you to be slagging BMW for focusing on profits, yet what have Porsche been doing these past years in using a Toureg for its SUV? Or its money market activities on the side? Did you honestly think Audi was doing a good-hearted, purely benevolent service to its customers by adopting VW's platform for its A3/TT? The reality seems to be that BMW are pursuing the same pricing strategy with the new 6er that they used for the old 6er. In other words, the only "mistake" seems to be the one you've imagined. But instead of admitting this, you continue to twist this into an argument of profits, oblivious to the fact that Porsche has even higher profitability (in terms of return on sales) than BMW.

 

[Deckhook]

I think I am one person who continues to say car companies are in the business of making money, if you doubt this do a search of my posts to see so the idea of making money isn't something I disagree with. My point is and the one you seem to ignore is the amount they lose in residuals, much more than a 911, that's what the kudos of a brand brings, check it out the same is true for the Cayenne and Boxster.

 

[Guibo]

I think I am one person who continues to say car companies are in the business of making money, if you doubt this do a search of my posts to see so the idea of making money isn't something I disagree with. My point is and the one you seem to ignore is the amount they lose in residuals, much more than a 911, that's what the kudos of a brand brings, check it out the same is true for the Cayenne and Boxster.

I'm not going to be bothered to search your posts as within the threads that I've engaged with you, you are unwilling to paint Audi/Porsche with the same contemptuous strokes of blood-sucking greedy bastards that you do for BMW.
No, I did not ignore residuals. See my previous post: "AutoExpress did indeed compare them side by side and declared the 6GC the better car (and the one that is likely to retain a higher residual than the others)."
Do you honestly think high residuals are purely a byproduct of Porsche giving a shit about its customers? Or could it be that they don't flood the market, especially with regard to fleet/company sales, to the same degree that other companies do, and might actually have a vested interested (image/marketing) in keeping prices high? If the use of employer incentives with fleet sales means you can write off much of the expense of a new car, why would you buy used if you don't have to? Tell me again the residuals of a 6er diesel vs a 911 diesel, or how many 911 diesels have inundated the market. Oh, that's right. You can't. Meanwhile, over 60% of 6ers sold in the UK are diesels...
Many of the 2,700 newly registered 6ers in 2009 are coming off of their leases; in 2009, the UK figure for the 911 was 1,900. Last year, Porsche sold about 2400 Cayennes in the UK; for BMW, the figure of X5s was more than double that at around 5300. Gee, you don't think that affects residuals? The point about residuals is that they only tell you how the 2nd-hand market, possibly inundated with many cars for few buyers, treats values with respect to miles, age, etc. What it doesn't necessarily tell you is whether a competing car, when brand new, is worth what the manufacturer asks.
In its "Half Priced Heroes" article, Autocar found an Aston V8 Vantage with full service history from official dealer and an asking price of 30k. This, from a car that was originally 80k. What the hell happened to Aston's "kudos" here? Is it your position that Aston have been overly greedy and haven't looked after the losses incurred by its customers? How about the Rolls Ghosts they mentioned that dropped 50k? Or the Bentley Continental GTs that can be had for as low as 25k? Or the 599s that once started at 225k euros now asking less than half that?
Here's a 996 Turbo with 58k miles, being advertised at 26k GBP: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4117882.htm
The highest 996 Turbo on PH is listed at 43k: Used Cars for sale with PistonHeads
Meanwhile, here's a Z8 also with 58k miles, advertised at £68k: Used Cars for sale with PistonHeads
A Z8, with 74% more miles than that most expensive 996 Turbo, is asking twice the money: Used Cars for sale with PistonHeads
Now, is that a function of BMW having more "kudos" than Porsche? Based on your failed logic of Porsche's higher residuals, it must be. And back in the day, the Z8 cost nearly as much as the 996 Turbo (£80k vs £86k), so that further shoots a hole in your theory that BMW can't sell a car at prices comparable to Porsche. But we already knew as much when you failed to answer whether the 760Li can cost as much as some Panameras (and the Audi S8 too).

 

[ACE]

Here is what BMW UK think the 6 GC competes against.

Base Pricing in the UK is
6GC: £59.6k
CLS: £51.2k
Panny: £63.2k

I think you could argue that the Audi A7 (base price £48.7k) also competes in this 4 door coupe segment (as C&D have done here).

The 6GC is priced significantly above the Audi and Merc equivalents. I would agree with C&D (and a few other mags as well) that the 6GC is relatively expensive. Coincidentally, the BMWs that I consider to the best (M135i) and worst (640i GC) value, have exactly the same engine!

 

[Merc1]

So wait, the CLS gets better economy and emissions than the 6er GC? Didn't know that.


M

 

[Wolfgang]

^ Probably due to stratified charge direct injection?

Balasubramanian says the type of fuel system they’ll be introducing into a particular market will depend on the quality of what fuel is available. Advancements in CGI technology will allow Mercedes-Benz engines to run with even greater air content, thus boosting fuel economy by up to 7%. Adds Balasubramanian homogenous charge fuel injection will likely be offered in India, China and the US, where fuel has high sulfur content, while stratified charge injection will be limited to Europe, Scandinavia and some Asian countries.​

http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...4-7-twin-turbo-v8-and-new-3-5-v6.33184/page-6

 

[chonkoa]

That is daylight robbery, for what is essentially a dressed up 5 series.

And some won't see a problem with that.

 

[Zafiro]

So wait, the CLS gets better economy and emissions than the 6er GC? Didn't know that.


M

On paper yes. But what in reality? I have never had a car that uses the same fuel as the carmaker claim.