British Luxury Brands – design and future

[Centurion]

At first I was a bit disappointed by the lack of strict and formal lines seen on the Phantom and Arnage. Such lines contribute to a majestic and authoritative appearance. It was almost like I couldn't respect the Mulsanne but having digested the car for a couple of days I now hold a better understanding of the design.

Romance is back and the SLS and Mulsanne will be the ambassadors for soft, silk like romantic contours that will make owners fall in love with their automobile. It also makes the cars appear more approachable rather than intimidating. That is why it isn't a coincidence that the presentation colour for the Mulsanne is highly alike the alu-beam paint that will be an option for the SLS.

I'm very keen on the interior too. Yes it's conservative but with the endless colours and trims Bentley offer, the car will be a breeze to personalize. The evolutionary approach is well contrasted with the LEDs which will ensure that the car won't be mistaken for an old brick. As many others here on this board I was worried that British auto design was dying, especially after having seen the Science fiction path chosen by Jaguar. I was dissapointed in how the Ghost look like a filtered Phantom, lacking it's own personality and neither am I a fan of the bulging center console -- a clear German influence. Thankfully, VAG have managed to keep the Mulsanne 99% pure and I think I'm ready to change my avatar............and will do so again when VAG present the Mulsanne Mulliner with quilted seats and doors. All that needs to be done now is to replace the Bentley CGT with a car that doesn't have a nose resembling the VW Beetle.

 

[Merc1]

^^^ Spot on post.

Yes if they replaced the Continental series with a good looking design Bentley will be up there with Aston-Martin for good looking lineup honors.

M

 

[Centurion]

^^^ Spot on post.

Yes if they replaced the Continental series with a good looking design Bentley will be up there with Aston-Martin for good looking lineup honors.

M

Interior-wise the Continental GT was a revolution. Few other cars have an with such an easily customisable interior, and for Bentley to successfully devise a completely different concept for the Arnage is a major achievement. Queen Elizabeth's lease on her B-wagon must be running out soon. It's time for VAG to present her with a replacement, maybe something with LED light outlining a crown of Buckingham Palace? I know there are plenty of diods in Audi's spare part bins.

 

[Merc1]

Either that man is really short or that car is gargantuan.

M

 

[EnI]

Either that man is really short or that car is gargantuan.

M

That Bentley State Limo has raised roof - being 70" high (178cm) ... I guess in aim to enable HRH to be presented in all royal outfit - incl. the crown.




Btw, it will be really interesting to see, who will deliver the next Royal limo ... But I guess - and I hope - The Queen is wise, and will do it like Chancellor Merkel does: who alternates between all the German brands ... using all their top producs: S-class, A8, 7er & Phaeton.
So it would be nice to see 3 Royal limos ... from Bentley, RR & Daimler (not the German one, but the one from Tata - Daimler the car brand which comes together with Jaguar).
I'm sure at least RR & Bentley will donate cars to the Queen, and I hope Daimler will do it as well ... if not else at least the new Daimler Super 8 (based on the new XJ).

Thankfully, VAG have managed to keep the Mulsanne 99% pure and I think I'm ready to change my avatar............and will do so again when VAG present the Mulsanne Mulliner with quilted seats and doors.

Are you sure about that?

Attention: MY PERSONAL OPINION !!!

:

What seems to be the case is that VAG decided to make Bentley a relic - sticking to the old-world style (with some contemporary styling techniques - eg. "flame surfacing") ... While all the other luxury British brands (RR, Jaguar, AM, Lagonda, and also LR in the near future) have left that world and entered the 21st century ...

If you ask me ... -- VAG did that from commercial reasons only: since now they have a monopoly on old-world customers, who still want some old-British flair. Since all the other British brands are now too modern for them ... So, the talk about "oh, we wanted to preserve heritage" etc is more a PR than anything else.

But ... I'm eager to see when VAG will head with the new Continental line. Yet I guess it will be very evolutionary ... using more sharp "flame-surfaced" lines like Mulsanne does etc. But main design features will stay the same. I will be VERY surprised if VAG decide to make Mk2 Continentals a bit more revolutionary. Perhaps with Mk3, definitely not with Mk2.

 

[///K]

Similar treatment is done to Obama's presidential Limo, the Cadillac. It's probably not as tall as the Queen's, but it's still a tank when it's put next to normal cars, or yet a human.

 

[Centurion]

:

What seems to be the case is that VAG decided to make Bentley a relic - sticking to the old-world style (with some contemporary styling techniques - eg. "flame surfacing") ... While all the other luxury British brands (RR, Jaguar, AM, Lagonda, and also LR in the near future) have left that world and entered the 21st century ...

If you ask me ... -- VAG did that from commercial reasons only: since now they have a monopoly on old-world customers, who still want some old-British flair. Since all the other British brands are now too modern for them ... So, the talk about "oh, we wanted to preserve heritage" etc is more a PR than anything else.

But ... I'm eager to see when VAG will head with the new Continental line. Yet I guess it will be very evolutionary ... using more sharp "flame-surfaced" lines like Mulsanne does etc. But main design features will stay the same. I will be VERY surprised if VAG decide to make Mk2 Continentals a bit more revolutionary. Perhaps with Mk3, definitely not with Mk2.

I think the word relic is a very negative way to put it, I'd call it traditional. British luxury have always taken inspiration from the past and still does today. The vast number of companies producing well crafted products of high quality all possess an "old world" aura. I mean, why change a successful formula if people love it? Why stand still as opposed to having to constantly move forward? Forward to what? It's not all PR, it's about what people want. I like the reserved appearance of the Arnage/Mulsanne and so does many other on this board as well as the Arnage customers.

The ones with a more adventurous taste have the Bentley CGT catering to them. Expect VAG to continue their playfulness with that line. Unlike the Mulsanne it's produced in higher quantities and rival a large gang of compelling cars: The CL, DB9, Granturismo, California and Panamera. It therefore has higher pressure on it to be contemporary and attract the younger crowd below 40, compared with the Phantom and Arnage which are generally driven by made men above 50.

 

[EnI]

I mean, why change a successful formula if people love it? Why stand still as opposed to having to constantly move forward? Forward to what? It's not all PR, it's about what people want.

EnI speaking, not CM:


And here we come to the term of romanticism ... Yes, eg. the company knows that there is a certain customer base out there who likes such stuff. And of course we all know it that luxury buyers are in average a bit older, and usually conservative (traditionalistic). Yet the reproduction of such tastes is slow, and such tastes are slowly but persistently dying off. Customer base is shrinking.

That's why all the modern stuff ... and the "new luxury" - which, how ironically - some other VAG brand uses as a advertising slogan ... is going on lately also in luxury segment.

So, yes ... you can stick to tradition & romanticism ... or you can try some more modern approach, and broaden your customer base ... (I'm not talking Continental segment here ... where Bentley became kind of Lexus-of-ultra-luxury-segment: offering such cars for good money ... the formula used by Lexus in the beginning).

Nothing wrong with the Mulsanne per se ... It's an excellent car without a doubt. Even some modern touches are there: "flame-surfaced" body panels, exposed LEDs etc ... in very small doses - unlike eg. RR & Jaguar where "shock therapy" was used - introducing modern stuff at once & in in large amounts.

PS: In the next hours I'll post some CM stuff in the IC thread - regarding the different approaches used by Bentley & RR when looking & searching for the essence of the brand. And why BMW think the RR way is more appropriate (although - as always only time can prove that).

 

[Centurion]

RR is certainly not devoid of old world attributes, though BMW did an exceptionally good job reviving the Phantom name. They did get the balance right in reinventing old values and making them relevant in todays world. It does have attitude(which is probably the word we're looking for here) and the Mulsanne isn't as imposing except for the LED projectiles. Except for that it does look very modern curtsey of the smooth edges and lines which RR will most certainly have to adopt for the Phantom successor if they want to move away from the formal lines of the past.

Bentley have racing heritage and racing is in most cases a profession of the young and active. So in terms of accessibility the Continental GT perfectly caters to audience who should enjoy that element of Bentley history. A shrinking appetite for old world luxury is not a problem because for the Phantom nor the Mulsanne as the clientèle for those cars is small enough for the taste of the masses to be irrelevant. What will be questioned now in the next coming months is whether the new XJ is British or not. I think Jaguar has distended themselves from the packs to the degree that they have left their identity behind and simply produce modern cars like the Germans.

View attachment 5a23cffb6d05fdf5c4430172c03454b1.jpg

 

[EnI]

IMO it would be very appropriate to open a thread for a debate about British luxury brands, their design and their future ... Especially since non of them is actually British anymore (RR & Bentley are German, Jaguar & Daimler & LandRover are now Indian, AM / Lagonda are Arab/American).

So we can have all the discussion there, and leave this thread to Mulsanne.

Luw, do you have time to do that ... I'm a bit short here ... And we'll ask some mod to move the relevant posts from here to there then.

IMO it will be a good debate ... at least I'm very interested ...

 

[Centurion]

Hopefully Merc, Tycoon, Wimmer or some other active mod can slice of the most recent posts here and bake them into a new thread.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ree]

Give me 10 minutes - will do this in a heartbeat!!

edit: done – if I missed some posts or moved to many of them to this new thread, please contact me!!

 

[EnI]

Great.

So, the first thing to do: a homework ...

Check the Jaguar, Bentley & RR sites... And learn about what the designers & PR have to say about the new car designs (XF, XJ, Mulsanne, Continental, Phantom, Ghost / 200EX) ... What was the brief behind, and what was the aim with design (based on that brief by marketing guys) ...

After that we will be able to comment their intentions & ideas. I think this debate will be great!



See you in a few hours ...

 

[ree]

Great.

So, the first thing to do: a homework ...

Check the Jaguar, Bentley & RR sites... And learn about what the designers & PR have to say about the new car designs (XF, XJ, Mulsanne, Continental, Phantom, Ghost / 200EX) ... What was the brief behind, and what was the aim with design (based on that brief by marketing guys) ...

After that we will be able to comment their intentions & ideas. I think this debate will be great!



See you in a few hours ...

Knowing what - that's the Eni, I've missed… …will be great. Hope I will have some time today to check some of their websites. Don't forget Land Rover and also very british Tuscan…

 

[EnI]

Knowing what - that's the Eni, I've missed…

Mind some great debaters have left this community ... Only few of them still being here ... I guess not enough to lead great debates anymore like in the past.

We have some great debates here in the past ... One of the best seen in general-public automotive internety communities ...

But we shall all try to recreate those times again ... Opening more deeper topics than just X vs Y stuff, PR articles, and new launches ...


PS: sure, I forgot about LR in the last post ... so, yes - study the LR too ... especially the latest concepts ...

 

[Centurion]

What has struck me is your referral to the Ghost as sporty. The green house and stance of the car is nothing but formal, just like the Phantom but slimmer and less imposing. Roof height is simply too tall for anyone to even use the word sport in the same sentence as the Ghost, especially when compared with the Mulsanne that has more muscular proportions diverting attention to the muscular hips. It's just too Eni, the Ghost is not sporty eventhough the underpinnings might be.

 

[EnI]

Cent, you've missed an important remark there: it was said Ghost is very sporty for a RR saloon .... Read again (Ghost tread).
Yes, Ghost is very tall car: 155cm - which is eg. 2cm higher than BMW X1, and as high as 5er GT.

Mulsanne looks much lower - about 145cm or so ...


Sure Bentley brand per se is more sporty in its essence & values.

Regarding the Ghost design ... check the extreme vaftability stance ... looking like the car is accelerating even when standing still, or driving slowly ... with its front up in the air, and rear pushed down ... Much more prominent than in Phantom cars.

Yes, Bentley uses more dramatic styling (sharper lines, more curves, more dynamic panel styling etc) to emphasis the dynamism & sporty stance ... While RR uses lots of formal long straight lines, boxier shape, less dramatic curves, very restrained body panel styling etc.

Similar to the case MB & BMW styled their cars to emphasize different qualities & character.




Just like BMW have sportier core designs (core saloon cars) than MB, Bentley will always look sportier & less formal than RR. That will be even more evident in the future ...

Yet ...

Despite the Bentley is using trendier styling cues (eg "flame surfacing") in exterior design, it looks like RR still manages to look more modern somehow. It's hard to describe since it looks so formal vs the Bentley. Yet something on Bentley (especially the interior) screams old-style ... Despite the whole car-like concept is more modern than back-to-the-root approach by RR: making the cars look monumental, like yacht on wheels ... and also having a feeling driving a yacht with that sitting position. Interior design even more shows that approach.

I'll talk about the design goals & the differences in approach later ...


But I'm glad seeing RR & Bentley going away from each other ... RR becoming more formal than ever, while Bentley are emphasizing their sporty spirit.

Yet one thing is still wrong ... Since Bentley should be more daring & modern than RR ... especially now when all other British brands are also becoming very modern in Design. Therefore I'm afraid Bentley will really start to look like an old-world relict ... Sure it will find its customers with that design - no doubt ... but the design perception is going to change.

Which is odd ... Sportier & less informal brand's car looking more old-stylish than the cars of a more formal & less sportier brand - which oddly looks somehow more modern. Talking about Bentley & RR here.

And it seems even more odd with Lagonda & Jaguar & soon LR go ultra-modern as well. Kind a positioning themselves against RR - as a benchmark of the new "British" design ... Which was pushed in quite modern spheres ... It looks like Bentley is not going to play this game. Which will be interesting to see how the design community will react to.

I hope Rob & Hussein will come back & join this debate - to say something about the design approaches: old vs new, more vs less modern etc

 

[Centurion]

Bentley is very daring and the Continental GT is the testament. When it was unveiled, it became a must-have car for many success young people. The interior, despite deriving from the Phaeton is a winner from all perspectives.

Segmentation even takes places within a brand -- BMW, Audi and Mercedes does it too. The Continental GT and Mulsanne target consumers on the opposite ends and therefore need to be tailored to suit the too well valued audiences. VAG choose the conservative path for the Mulsanne because their core clientèle require an exemplary car with a bit of discretion. Given the low production volumes I'm sure that VAG gave the current Arnage owners the opportunity to vent their opinion before the final design was approved. Still, the exterior does not give relic-vibes. The similarities with the Continental GT are well visible.

Jaguar are lost, the new XJ could have well been a Mercedes or BMW -- there is no sense of direction, just experimentation. Aston Martin are in an excellent position with the well embraced Vantage or DB9, but what's next? The brand seem to be cruising on the works of Fisker. The Rapide is a clear example of that, it's DB9 and Vantage glued together plus an extra door. As for Rolls Royce, the Phantom is great but they fell short in impressing me with the Ghost which does not have its own character or persona -- it's just a "mini" phantom.

 

[klier]

Nice thread Luw

Mulsanne looks more sporty and dynamic.
Both look stunning from the side. The RR more formal, modern and clean. The Bentley more old school dynamic luxury, which imo fits Bentley perfectly. Both are outstanding cars, but the Ghost probably has more high tech and a stronger cutting edge engine...

Phantom imo still is in a league of it's own and cannot be compared to either the Ghost or Mulsanne.

 

[Merc1]

There probably hasn't been a better time to be a rich or even semi-rich luxury car buyer in over 70 years. The choice today is just staggering. There is something from all of them I like. The RR Drophead Coupe is beyond reproach as far as luxury convertibles to. I just flat out love it. EnI's description about yacht is accurate here IMO. With the metal hood and teak deck what other car on earth comes close to this kind of personal, open air luxury? The Bentley Azure? Nah its exceedingly nice, but not nearly as customizable, but arguably more attractive in certain colors.

This new Mulsanne is just the car Bentley needed, as you see many of us have been suffering for years looking at the Continental family of "Bentleys". Now we have a new-age Bentley that doesn't look like a VW product. Bentley did the Arnage proud IMO.

The new Jaguar XJ is a daring break with tradition and I think the market will reward them for that, but it is at best a car that must been seen in person to appreciate. The interior is wonderful except the Mazda/GMC looking air vents in the dash and the huge panel of wood used on the doors, its simply overdone in the pics at least. The long version (see my post in the XJ pic thread) reeks of luxury and high-end swathing.

The British GT maker, Aston-Martin is just on a roll now. Not an ugly car in the bunch and their least attractive one (that 4-door thingy) still shames most cars on the road, if not imaginative enough.

Just a small section of the fantasy garage for British cars: DBS Volante, Vantage V12, RR Drophead Coupe, Muslanne, XKR, XFR, and possibly a Ghost. That's enough shiny, high-end British hardware to make you forget Germany, almost.

Luxury cars just can't get much better than what they are now, but they will...and that is remarkable.


M