Poll BMW M4 vs. Mercedes C 63 AMG S Coupe

[GTA45E]

The C63 AMG is now more safe because it's heavier and it has better torsional flex because it's heavier.

I love it. Can't wait to see the next assumption. I think I already saw it in your idea where adding more HSLA steel makes the driving dynamics better. More steel is never better, and is always bad for driving dynamics.

I could get nasty and tell you to go back and read my post again but that is not my nature. I tried it a few times and it does not work too well.
Dispite your rather extreme approach sometimes you still manage to be quite entertaining to converse with.
I never said the HSLA steel makes driving dynamics better. I said if it is used in critical areas to increase structural integrity it would decrease torsional flex, therefore increasing dynamics and driver oriented flexibility. Hi-performance cars (and exotics) usually have a greater torsioinal flex resistence than their low end brothers.

That's why they don't need a 500 hp V8

The first AMG car was a V8, so it`s become a tradition for the company to keep the V8 alive.
The 6-Cylinder is not apart of their history.

 

[klier]

I never said the HSLA steel makes driving dynamics better. I said if it is used in critical areas to increase structural integrity it would decrease torsional flex, therefore increasing dynamics and driver oriented flexibility.

What dynamics does it increase then, apart from the driving? Extra weight decreases dynamics.

 

[GTA45E]

^ It`s pretty self explanitory. There are other variables such as steering and brake tuning that come into play.
A tighter body structure is going to play a key role in increase the driving experience such as steering, braking and suspension reactions, increasing feedback to the driver. Picture a sports car with less structural integrity. The dynamics is going to be lost somewhat because it`s steering, brake and suspension reactions compensate for twitch or flex motions at hi speeds. I am trying to explain this as simple as possible. I think you get the picture.

 

[klier]

I get what you're saying but the weight increase is a bigger penalty. If the basic W205 needs that much reinforcements to make it able to handle a big torquey V8 they could have put a V6 in it and make it lighter.

 

[GTA45E]

This is where larger faster reacting components come into play to compensate for the weight disadvantage.
Again I am just guessing about the HSLA steel reinforcements. If this is the case AMG used it to cut cost.
(Look at the Cadillac ATS V for example. It also weights considerably more than the M4 but still manages to out handle it and put down better
numbers all around in most tests. )

I am going to end this good discussion here.
The new C63 coupe should be one fantastic performer
despite the weight disadvantage. It should give the M4
a run for its money. Looks like it is running away in the poll.

 

[klier]

This is where larger faster reacting components come into play to compensate for the weight disadvantage.

That's what I wanted to say. You cannot compensate weight disadvantage. Period.

And no Cadillac out handles an M4, LOL.

 

[klier]

Looks like it is running away in the poll.

Yeah I wonder why

A poll on GFC means less than zero.

 

[Mr Robert]

When can we expect the comparisons?

 

[Giannis]

Weight does't automatically imply safety. If I take a Yaris and put 1000lbs of dumbbells in the trunk, it doesn't magically become safer because it has higher weight. Cars are not solid rigid bodies. Conservation of momentum applies when 2 rigid bodies collide. If @Giannis is around he can probably educate us more on finite element analysis that would be required when 2 non-rigid bodies collide.

Going back to weight, yes, if the weight is used to make the structure stronger, sure it will be safer. But if a car is heavier because it's engine or transmission is heavier, it is not going to be any safer. Also if structure is made of a material with higher specific strength, it can be both lighter and safer, case in point carbon fibre.

Sorry to join the party late @Sunny

I'll borrow Clarkson's words and say that speed is not what kills you. Suddenly becoming stationary is.

The human body can withstand certain levels of acceleration. This is associated with brain activity, blood flow, etc. The human body can also withstand certain levels of force. This is associated with bone fracture, organ and tissue damage, etc.

Now think of a man jumping from the roof of a 10-storey building. If he hits the pavement, he'll die. If the firefighters hold a safety elastic net and the guy hits this instead, he might survive.

The difference is energy dissipation.

A human body, inside a car traveling at 100 km/h has the same kinetic energy, irrespective of the weight of the car.

So, where does the weight of the car come into the equation?

1) A car's chassis needs to be able to bend instead of fracture in the event of a crash (that has more to do with the type of steel alloy, rather than the quantity)

2) A car's chassis needs to dissipate its kinetic energy into deformation, heat, etc in a controlled way, so that less of its initial kinetic energy is absorbed by the human body. A chassis that deforms progressively means that it will yield a smaller deceleration in the event of a crash.

3) A car's chassis needs to deform in such a way that impacts of the human body with hard surfaces is avoided. Airbags do both this and also serve as energy dissipation devices for the human body.

So, bottom line:

Heavier doesn't mean safer. Heavy weight doesn't guarantee absolutely anything. On the contrary, less weight guarantees more agility because inertia.

 

[DblPen]

Sorry to join the party late @Sunny

I'll borrow Clarkson's words and say that speed is not what kills you. Suddenly becoming stationary is.

The human body can withstand certain levels of acceleration. This is associated with brain activity, blood flow, etc. The human body can also withstand certain levels of force. This is associated with bone fracture, organ and tissue damage, etc.

Now think of a man jumping from the roof of a 10-storey building. If he hits the pavement, he'll die. If the firefighters hold a safety elastic net and the guy hits this instead, he might survive.

The difference is energy dissipation.

A human body, inside a car traveling at 100 km/h has the same kinetic energy, irrespective of the weight of the car.

So, where does the weight of the car come into the equation?

1) A car's chassis needs to be able to bend instead of fracture in the event of a crash (that has more to do with the type of steel alloy, rather than the quantity)

2) A car's chassis needs to dissipate its kinetic energy into deformation, heat, etc in a controlled way, so that less of its initial kinetic energy is absorbed by the human body. A chassis that deforms progressively means that it will yield a smaller deceleration in the event of a crash.

3) A car's chassis needs to deform in such a way that impacts of the human body with hard surfaces is avoided. Airbags do both this and also serve as energy dissipation devices for the human body.

So, bottom line:

Heavier doesn't mean safer. Heavy weight doesn't guarantee absolutely anything. On the contrary, less weight guarantees more agility because inertia.

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Volvo is 400kg heavier than renault.

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Movano probably is two times heavier than passat pllus carry 1 t of sand.

 

[Zafiro]

What I'm I missing here. Did MB intentional make their AMG heavier than a M4 just to make it a safer car.
Is this some kind of excuse why the C63 is heavier. I do not understand this discussion.

Poor Jaguar XF, it's 120 kg lighter than a 5-series. It's a freaking death trap!

 

[klier]

Is this some kind of excuse why the C63 is heavier. I do not understand this discussion.

Me neither, it's a bunch of off topic BS.