BMW in talks with Merc

Mercedes/BMW collaboration on the cards


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Bayerische Motoren Werke AG is in talks to cooperate with rival Daimler AG’s Mercedes unit to develop and assemble engines, axles, steering gear or drive systems. Both the manufacturers are trying to cut costs and make small cars for a host of reasons like CO2 emissions, fuel efficiency and increase in volumes. BMW has set an internal cost-savings target of 8 billion euros while Mercedes adopted the CORE cost cutting strategy. Merging of the two German automotive magnates would lead to a lot of interesting news which will closely be tracked by us in the following months.


Source: BenzInsider.com - The Official Mercedes-Benz Fan Blog Mercedes/BMW collaboration on the cards

:t-cheers:
 
Daimler, BMW focus on engine collaboration: report

Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:03am EST


FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Daimler AG (DAIGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) and German rival BMW (BMWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) are focusing on engines rather than complete auto platforms as areas for possible cooperation, Daimler Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche told a German newspaper.
In an interview with the Sueddeutsche Zeitung published on Tuesday, Zetsche said BMW was the most logical partner for Daimler because it offered the greatest potential cost savings given their similar activities.
"We speak Bavarian and Swabian but basically the same language. It depends on the factual issues whether something comes of this in the end," he said.
He disputed the suggestion that talks on joint development of engines were running into difficulty.
"That is not true of the engines. What has turned out to be difficult is to think immediately of entire platforms. Components would be easier and engines and components are absolutely possibilities (for cooperation). Here we are looking first at smaller vehicles," he said.
The world's two biggest premium carmakers were not discussing collaboration on fuel cell technology, he added.
Zetsche said Daimler was continuing to work with Chrysler on some areas started before Daimler sold a majority stake in its U.S. arm to private equity firm Cerberus last year, but he ruled out helping Chrysler sell small cars in Europe.
"Chrysler cannot achieve premium prices and has to attain low costs via high volumes," he said.
He also played down prospects for finding a partner whose output of small cars would help Daimler reduce the average carbon dioxide emissions from its fleet, a key issue given penalties on CO2 output proposed by the European Commission.
"This would only be of use if the manufacturer of small cars produced (vehicles with) consumption below the levels demanded by the EU. I don't see any such producer," he said.



Source: Reuters
 
BMW And Merc: Business Sense By Car

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CAR Online today reveals the extent to which BMW and Mercedes are plotting to cooperate on future models. In a wide-ranging plan, the two German premium marques could join forces to take on the might of Audi, with its backing and economies of scale of the whole Volkswagen group and, increasingly, Porsche.
BMW chairman Norbert Reithofer and his counterpart at Daimler, Dieter Zetsche, are coming to the conclusion that the two brands – for so long, fierce rivals – should work together rather than fight against each other. They’re already working together on hybrid SUVs (together with GM), and now the bosses are evaluating further, more far-reaching cooperation projects.
CAR’s Georg Kacher lifts the lid on the secret talks. Both brands know they must streamline products and processes – a relatively straightforward task compared with protecting the core individual brand values. With plenty of inside information provided by both parties, we have determined five areas where collaboration would be of mutual benefit.

1. BMW-Mercedes joint products

BMW needs a partner for Mini and Mercedes is looking for assistance on the next A/B-class. Why not work together? End result: bigger volumes, shared R&D expenditure and reduced purchasing costs. Trouble is, the Mini and A/B-class are not really compatible in size, character and engineering layout. That’s why Mercedes has talked to Fiat, GM, Ford, Hyundai, PSA and others about a possible joint venture. But in an ideal world, Mercedes would prefer to team up with a premium player, like BMW.
The Bavarians has already struck an engine deal with Peugeot, and it too is actively looking for partners on the third-generation Mini. By tying the smallest Mercs and BMWs, they could keep the front-wheel drive layout, but there are factions within Mercedes who want to develop the next A/B-class alongside the next 1-series. Why? Because today’s front-drive mini-MPVs have been financially (zero profits), demographically (average age 55+) and strategically (no component sharing) disastrous.
Switching the next A- and B-class to RWD could at a stroke make them seem more premium, potentially more profitable and dynamically much more appealing to younger buyers. What this approach requires most of all is time - time for the engineering chiefs to convince the bean counters, time to develop a sufficiently flexible new vehicle concept and time to prepare a historically polarised audience.

2 New brands for BMW and Mercedes

While BMW is mooting a fourth brand, Mercedes already has one. It’s called Smart. The micro car company has over time lost a whopping €3.5 billion, and axed four models (Formore SUV, Roadster, Coupé, Forfour) in just two years. But the positioning and the brand values are still up-to-date – Smart equals young, green, alternative, stylish, cosmopolitan, compact.
It could thus function quite well as an umbrella for those vehicle concepts which are neither fully compatible with neither BMW nor Mini. For instance, Munich has a secret project for a new congestion-busting city bike, the Clever trike codeveloped with several systems suppliers, the follow-up to the E1 electric car and the reincarnation of the Isetta bubble car. Conceived as a low- and zero-emissions vehicle, the Isetta would from 2012 also be offered in the US where BMW needs such a clean-air product to meet future legal requirements.
Although the smart Fortwo is not exactly the ultimate driving machine, the next-generation could, with a litte help from BMW, become exactly that. Worried about a loss of brand identity caused by an Isetta sister model? Check out existing pairings like A3/Golf or Chrysler 300C/E-class, then think again. Another factor encouraging such co-designs is that OEMs and suppliers can only apply a limited number of innovations (about 300 between now and 2015) to reach very similar goals. More so than ever, the art of branding is therefore essential to create different characters that comply with the same missions.

3. Can BMW and Mercedes share more engine tech?

Do BMW and Mercedes really need two different V12 engines? The 760i and the Rolls-Royce Phantom demonstrate that one V12 can serve two almost antagonistic purposes. Surely, the same could be achieved for the next 760i and the next S600/Maybach. While we’re at it, we would like to choose a similar approach for the V8 diesel which BMW will drop because sales have fallen to under 2000 units per year. Together with Mercedes-Benz, higher combined volumes could easily fund the mandatory evolution process.
And V8 petrol engines are another areas ripe for consolidation. General trends like direct-injection, sequential turbocharging, downsizing and downshifting (ie a V8 instead of a V10/V12) are sweeping the industry, and the two premium brands are investigating pooling resources more efficiently. Admittedly, there is zero overlap as far as the V6s and straight sixes are concerned, but four-cylinders again promise significant potential, probably with with PSA.
Brand-specific USPs like Efficient Dynamics or Valvetronic would of course be off-limits for the cooperation partners, but there is no reason why they couldn’t share the base engine. Consider for instance the three high-end 2.0-litre diesels offered by Audi, BMW and Mercedes. All three versions deliver 204bhp and 295lb ft. So much for zero differentiation...

4. Sharing other technology

Comand, MMI and iDrive - three different means to reach the same goal. Bluetec and AdBlu - two different names for the same solution. Imagine what parallel development has cost, and continues to cost, in areas like hybrid propulsion where BMW and Mercedes are already pooling their resources to create a European premium alternative to the h models from Lexus.
And that´s only the beginning. Next, the Germans need to join forces to develop the fuel cell. Here, M-B has an advantage it could share in exchange for BMW’s extensive hydrogen know-how. The two brands could feed the same fuel-cell with different raw energies, which would keep their halos intact and work for our environment.

5. Sharing more modules

One logical modular partnership concerns transmissions, perhaps in conjunction with ZF. After all, BMW and Merc both need the same hardware: precise low-friction lightweight manual gearboxes, efficient eight-speed automatics, low-loss dual-clutch boxes with seven, eight or nine forward ratios. Out of the same parts shelf for both brands? Why not, providing there is enough scope for fine tuning.
Even more costly than transmissions and even less relevant to the end user are electronic architectures like CAN-BUS circuits which could be shared freely by BMW and Merc. Other modules are new driver assistance systems, air suspension applications, flexible seating concepts, electro-mechanical brakes, thermo management, common software standards like Autosar and of course critical energy savers like supercaps or lithium ion batteries.
Modules are core elements of a technology and product partnership which in an ideal world will lead to an assembly and distribution partnership. Too much control, too little freedom for individual thoughts and trends? True, there are many within BMW and Mercedes who are categorically against any kind of far-reaching cooperation, fearing the loss of the competitive edge which is seen as the key driving force behind brand excellence.
But this thought process may soon be in need of a revision. After all, a deal between the two German premium giants is not about personal vanities of the breach of copyright. It’s about survival of the fittest. And fit one must be when your rivals are high-rollers like Audi/VW/Porsche and Toyota/Lexus.

Source: BMW and Merc to join forces
 
Re: Bmw And Merc: Business Sense By Car

Wow that is very interesting...I am curious to see how far they will go...hopefully they won't dilute each brand's identity, but it is clear that they need to collaborate quite extensively to survive and remain independant!...

Thanks for that, justanthony!
 
Re: Bmw And Merc: Business Sense By Car

Very logical step,Audi with immense funding by VW is very strong and we all know how profiltable VW not to mention Porsche who is even much profitable for thinking of acquiring VW with all that Audi will have unlimited financial support from everywhere and although MB and BMW are very strong they has to work together to survive.
 
Re: Bmw And Merc: Business Sense By Car

Wow that is very interesting...I am curious to see how far they will go...hopefully they won't dilute each brand's identity, but it is clear that they need to collaborate quite extensively to survive and remain independant!...

Thanks for that, justanthony!
You welcome homs:usa7uh:
 
Re: Bmw And Merc: Business Sense By Car

Interesting. All of that might be to far. The same V12, I say no to anything over a 4-cylinder for now. They can share different ways to make engines greener, but not the same engine in a V8 or V12 Benz/BMW/Maybach/Rolls. NO! The development on Mercedes' V12 was paid for 65 years ago its so old now, but its much more potent. Other under the skin things that every car has is fine, but engines and transmissions I think have to carefully guarded. MB does their own transmissions and it should stay that way except for special AMG applications in which they can team up with BMW and ZF one something special. Nine gears? I knew this was coming one day!

M
 
The way i see it, same V12's makes perfect sense. I think in today's world V12's are overrated. You now have downsizing, going green and fuel prices to contend with. And how many 'hoods' find a V12? Probably not as many cars to justify the R&D costs so i think why not. I know with the history it might seem a stretch to see both rivals sporting the same 'hearts' but i think thats more business sentiment than business sense. Something both companies are already realizing. Hey, all the upcoming hybrids from both of them are pretty much the same, funded and developed together. They (12s) wouldnt even have to be identical, but still cut from the same cloth. And budget!;)
 
Mercedes-Benz ends talks with BMW

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Despite numerous attempts by German rivals Mercedes-Benz and BMW to form a deal for swapping engines and vehicle platforms, latest reports coming out of Germany now claim talks between the two carmakers have come to an end. Mercedes-Benz has been looking for a partner to develop a new small car platform for its next-generation A and B-Class models, but now it appears it will go it alone.

The information comes from Daimler boss Dieter Zetsche, who told Auto Motor und Sport that Mercedes is no longer seeking a partnership with BMW and also confirmed that previous talks with Fiat had also ended without a result. According to Zetsche, the synergies formed from any partnership would have been too small to make the deal worthwhile.
Mercedes will now focus on cutting costs for its new A and B-Class models. One of the key strategies is to move production from the current Rastatt plant in Germany to a low cost site in Eastern Europe, the most likely site being Cluj in Romania. The final decision is expected to be made in the second quarter of the year.

:t-cheers:
 
Mercedes-Benz ends talks with BMW

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Despite numerous attempts by German rivals Mercedes-Benz and BMW to form a deal for swapping engines and vehicle platforms, latest reports coming out of Germany now claim talks between the two carmakers have come to an end. Mercedes-Benz has been looking for a partner to develop a new small car platform for its next-generation A and B-Class models, but now it appears it will go it alone.

The information comes from Daimler boss Dieter Zetsche, who told Auto Motor und Sport that Mercedes is no longer seeking a partnership with BMW and also confirmed that previous talks with Fiat had also ended without a result. According to Zetsche, the synergies formed from any partnership would have been too small to make the deal worthwhile.
Mercedes will now focus on cutting costs for its new A and B-Class models. One of the key strategies is to move production from the current Rastatt plant in Germany to a low cost site in Eastern Europe, the most likely site being Cluj in Romania. The final decision is expected to be made in the second quarter of the year.

:t-cheers:

Very easy. Cut the B-class altogether :D

I just read Justanthony's post and that was very interesting. Out of all the information, I'd like to see the 2 share V12's as I think they are a dying breed. Everything else should be developed on their own.

Some steering and suspension components would be nice too. But I don't really see all of this happening.
 
:D

Kind of agree.
A BMW/Mercedes collaboration sounded so nice... It would have killed the competition...:D

Ummmmmm.........

I think it was inevitable that the talks of possible co-operation between BMW and Mercedes have come to nothing at the end.

The two marques have fiercely proud heritage and are equally protective of their respective brand values and engineering philosophies. Any co-operations would mean significant compromises and would no doubt be the source of tremendous friction and strain.

Possible co-operations would be around the areas of; engine/drivetrains, standardized electrical components and modules, chassis platform components and modules, some drive systems such as suspension and four wheel steering systems, some active/passive safety systems such as the accident prevention, pre-safe and night vision systems.

A major sticking point is what would happen to the existing engineering and R&D departments of the two Brands. Any co-operation would imply firing en masse. Given the strong engineering cultures of both BMW and Mercedes Benz, this will be painful and a botched attempt would have the potential to destroy the CEO of both companies. Furthermore, both Dr Dieter Zetsche and Dr Norbert Reithofer are engineers by training and are only too aware of the substantial risks involved.

Another sticking point is that the respective model line-ups of BMW and Mercedes are out of sync by about 10-24 months. So which ever marque gets to launch a particular technology first would put the other one at a disadvantage.

Engine co-operation would be difficult because both marques are too far down the road with their own next-generation engines to start sharing now. Also, the different engine characteristics and requirements between the two marques would make the resultant synergistic benefits too small to be worthwhile.

Mercedes engines are more sedate and deliver more torque throughout the rev-range whereas BMW engines are higher revving and delivers more power at the top of the rev range. These conflicting requirements mean each marque will require its own unique cylinder heads and valvetrain systems. Furthermore, I doubt BMW is willing to share its forthcoming direct injection valvetronic system with Mercedes and Mercedes would be extremely reluctant to share its much-vaulted Diesotto technology with BMW.

For starters, Mercedes cannot use BMW’s excellent in-line six engines because they are too long.

But one thing for sure is that there has to be more differentiation between the two marques. All their engines are within a few kilowatts of one another…………..

Transmission; Mercedes is the only manufacturer that still produces its own automatic transmissions. But I have to say I think the current 7G-Tronic gearbox SUCKS! It (at least mine) is plagued with problems and cannot handle the high torque output of some of the V8 and V12 engines. Any co-operation would be between Mercedes and ZF and ZF produces way more automatic gearboxes than Mercedes. Mercedes probably has too much pride to give it up to ZF………

Drivetrain; these are difficult to share because they are so optimized and dependent on the power output of the engine. The torquier Mercedes engine demand bigger and heavier drive shafts, differentials, CV joints, and axles. BMW favours light weight components for enhanced agility and nimbleness.

Drive systems; BMW and Mercedes can share the steering, active suspension systems or the forthcoming four wheel steering systems. These items are designed to be tuned to the individual requirement of each marque so will not pose any great technical problems. The main problem is these systems only exist in the high end models and are produced in small numbers. So the financial savings are not great.

Electrical components/modules; these are probably the most feasible items for co-operation between the two. They are anonymous items under the bonnet or behind the fascia. I don’t think we’d care if they share air-con units, integrated alternator/generator units, start-stop system, etc. As long as they work and don’t break. Who Cares!

Chassis Platform components/modules; Again, the construction and the materials used are driven by engineering considerations and sharing will be difficult and too compromised.

It’s not all dark clouds ahead. Both BMW and Mercedes need to find partners to help reduce costs and they can always resume the talks a few years later. But right now, the risks are too great and far outweigh the possible financial benefits.
 
Luxury auto rivals Daimler, BMW discuss sharing components

Daimler CEO says company discussing possible component sharing, research with rival BMW

BEIJING (AP) -- Daimler AG, the maker of Mercedes-Benz cars, is discussing sharing components and technology development with rival BMW AG, Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche said Sunday.

The luxury automakers see each other as direct competitors and the possibility of cooperation reflects the intense pressure on automakers to cut costs amid slow sales growth in the United States and Europe.

"We are discussing potentially sharing components. And this might make sense specifically in regard to new technologies," Zetsche told reporters at the Beijing auto show.
Daimler, based in Stuttgart, and BMW, in Munich, might consider jointly investing in basic research but no agreements have been reached, Zetsche said. He gave no other details.

China, the world's second-largest auto market, has been a bright spot for Daimler and other automakers, with overall sales forecast to grow at least 15 percent this year. U.S. sales are expected to decline this year, while those in Europe and Japan are flat.

In China, Daimler says its first-quarter sales soared 42 percent from the same period last year to 8,661 vehicles. The company says China is the No. 2 market for its S-class sedans after the United States, accounting for one-third of sales.

On Sunday, Zetsche was joined onstage by Chinese film star Zhang Ziyi as Mercedes showed off its newest SUV, the GLK, which goes on sale in China next year.

"We know it's a big, growing market" for such vehicles, Zetsche said.
Mercedes produces its mid-size E-class cars and smaller C-class cars in China in a joint venture with a state-owned automaker. But Zetsche said it has no plans to respond to rising costs in Europe by exporting Chinese-made cars or components there.

However, he said, "tomorrow the situation might be different" as the quality of Chinese components improves.
Mercedes plans to add 20 new dealerships in China this year, raising the total to 120, said Ulrich Walker, the chairman of Daimler Northeast Asia Ltd.
Walker said Mercedes will start selling its two-seat Smart minicar in Beijing, Shanghai and other major Chinese cities next year. The company says the car is available in 37 countries.

The company also plans to start selling a gas-electric hybrid version of its M-class sedan in China late next year, Zetsche said.
 
Daimler and BMW continue talks on tech sharing

Posted on Tuesday 22 April 2008


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Arch-rivals BMW and Daimler are still locked in talks with latest discussions surrounding topics on component sharing and joint-research of new powertrain technologies. Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche has confirmed the two carmakers are in fact discussing the potential for component sharing, alluding to the fact new emissions laws are forcing manufacturers to develop expensive new technologies to help reduce emissions and fuel consumption levels.

When announcing the discussions between BMW and Daimler, Zetsche also stated that in the future Daimler may even consider exporting cars from its Chinese plants to combat the rising production costs in Western markets. This is most likely dependent on whether the quality of Chinese manufacturing improves, and Zetsche was careful not to rule out any export opportunities, reports the Detroit Free Press.

While collusion in technology development makes sense for the two German giants, discussions of component sharing are a little surprising considering the two carmakers hold the largest market share in the luxury car market and could possibly compromise this by losing their respective identities.

This is not the first time Daimler and BMW have been in talks. They met previously to talk about the possible sale of BMW engines to Daimler, Fiat and GM. While BMW’s most prized engines wouldn’t be on the table, some of its more ubiquitous offerings may become part of its plan to increase revenue streams in a time of slowing sales growth. BMW is expected to have come to a decision by the end of the year.

:t-cheers:
 
Tech sharing makes the most sense for these 2 IMO. Not platform, engine or other major component sharing. I seriously doubt you can tune an engine the BMW and Mercedes way, ditto for a chassis. Not impossible, but it would take some effort and some expensive (thus mooting the original point of collaborating in the first place) tayloring to do so. Hybrids, Fuel Cells, etc...the guts behind these technologies oh yes... BMW and Mercedes would slam Toyota to the floor. Notice that GM has rolled out their version of the collaborative hybrid project, but MB and BMW haven't. Why? Because they're still tweaking it. No plug and play here.

M
 
I really don't like this,i want MB to have nothing to do with BMW,seriously.
 
I really don't like this,i want MB to have nothing to do with BMW,seriously.



Too late. :D

The Quandts have been successful ... they convinced the investors (the ones who have a share in both companies - BMW AG & Daimler AG) to make a pressure on the Daimler management via the Supervisory board.

Of course both companies will profit from the synergies of new cooperations (mainly R&D + purchasing) ... Yet for Daimler AG management is a matter of pride ... playing only a second fiddle, while BMW having an initiative.

Too ensure such long-term cooperation between BMW & Daimler the Quandts are seeking a minority share in Daimler AG. To place their own man in Daimler's supervisory board ... eg. some ex-BMW member of the board. ;)

Of course the cooperation is "limited" to green tech, and new electronics. Something to fight PAH (PAG + VAG), and the Japanese (mainly Toyota).
 
Too late. :D

The Quandts have been successful ... they convinced the investors (the ones who have a share in both companies - BMW AG & Daimler AG) to make a pressure on the Daimler management via the Supervisory board.

Of course both companies will profit from the synergies of new cooperations (mainly R&D + purchasing) ... Yet for Daimler AG management is a matter of pride ... playing only a second fiddle, while BMW having an initiative.

Too ensure such long-term cooperation between BMW & Daimler the Quandts are seeking a minority share in Daimler AG. To place their own man in Daimler's supervisory board ... eg. some ex-BMW member of the board. ;)

Of course the cooperation is "limited" to green tech, and new electronics. Something to fight PAH (PAG + VAG), and the Japanese (mainly Toyota).

BMW Power.:worshbmw:
 

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