6 Series BMW 6-Series Gran Coupe First Drives/Reviews

EnI · May 28, 2012

Betty Swollocks said:
No, the 7 Series is significantly bigger than the 5 Series, so you can see why it would cost more.

Mhm. Car price is / should be / determined by it's size / interior volume/, right?

"How much of a car do you want' sir?"
"About 4.5 meters long, please. And about 2 cubic meters of interior volume. And what's the price?"
"Sir, it's €10k per meter, and €20k per cubic meter."

Betty Swollocks · May 28, 2012

EnI said:
Mhm. Car price is / should be / determined by it's size / interior volume/, right?

"How much of a car do you want' sir?"
"About 4.5 meters long, please. And about 2 cubic meters of interior volume. And what's the price?"
"Sir, it's €10k per meter, and €20k per cubic meter."

Assuming exterior materials are the same, engines and interior materials, of course it should. Take the BMW core models of the 1 Series/3 Series/5 Series/7 Series. All get a bit more expensive in quite a linear way.

You know full well the 6 Series doesn't cost much more than the 5 Series to build and develop, so it's a good profit centre for BMW. And any situation where a company is reaping a large profit margin (not saying BMW is wrong for doing that) means it's overpriced, because the production costs are not reflected in the selling price.

EnI · May 28, 2012

Since when the production costs reflect the selling price???? Maybe in communist economic system.

And especially that's not the rule in premium segments, with premium brands.

Or even when it comes to every day consumer goods & stuff. Items made in China & else where labor is insanely cheap are made for a friction of a price those items are selling in Western markets. Profit margins are HUGE! Not to mention some "premium" services - where you overpay the service several times the costs.

Perhaps 6er is overpriced TO YOU. Obviously for 10k people around the world / per year it is not. And if BMW finance guys are happy with this sales number (and profit made from this), then the business case works for everybody.

Sure every customer would want every single BMW car to cost less ... so it would be more affordable. But lets face it: there are thousands of richer Russians, Arabs, Chinese, Indians etc out there who are willing & able to pay high(er) price. Just because they want a BMW.

"Overpriced" is a highly subjective category. And if you find some product overpriced, you're absolutely free to go for another one who you consider a better value for money. Have you ever considered owning a Skoda or a Hyundai? Perhaps even a Dacia? Great value-for-money!

south · May 28, 2012

Betty Swollocks said:
You know full well the 6 Series doesn't cost much more than the 5 Series to build and develop, so it's a good profit centre for BMW. And any situation where a company is reaping a large profit margin (not saying BMW is wrong for doing that) means it's overpriced, because the production costs are not reflected in the selling price.

It's a bit ironic that you complain about the 6 being too expensive when you drive a car with one of the best profit margins of all. Reflecting development and production costs alone, the R8 should be way cheaper than it is. Not trying to derail the thread but giving another example of a car with a "prestige" markup.

Best regards,
south

Betty Swollocks · May 28, 2012

south said:
It's a bit ironic that you complain about the 6 being too expensive

Not really because I'm not "complaining". After all, BMW are not forcing anybody to buy a 6 Series are they? I'm just opining that considering it's essentially a 5 Series coupe, the extra GBP 20,000 (or whatever currency you choose to compare) you have to spend doesn't really get you very much other than a less practical car. The stark contrast is even more apparent when you compare with the 6er GC, which is essentially a less practical 5 Series.

south said:
when you drive a car with one of the best profit margins of all. Reflecting development and production costs alone, the R8 should be way cheaper than it is.

That's not a relevant comparison because Audi don't offer a similar car to the R8 using the same engines/chassis/interior and sell it for GBP20,000 less, in the same way BMW do with the 5er/6er. It's the R8 or nothing at all.

That is unless you consider the Lamborghini Gallardo which is the same engine, same chassis, and it comes with a less appealing interior, all for much more money. So in that case the R8 V10 is a bargain.

Betty Swollocks · May 28, 2012

EnI said:
Have you ever considered owning a Skoda or a Hyundai? Perhaps even a Dacia? Great value-for-money!

This has absolutely no relevance and it shows you are so focused on your own argument you're not actually reading what I posted.

Good grief, I should know better than to post an opinion on here for fear of offending somebody.

I actually love the 6 Series Coupe. I drove one a couple of weeks ago over 2,000km and I posted my thoughts here. I am actually planning to buy one at some point, but most likely it will be second hand because it is simply not worth a GBP 20,000 premium over the 5 Series. The second hand market testifies to this. Why you feel the need to start bringing Skoda, Hyundai and Dacia up is beyond me.

EnI · May 28, 2012

OK, perhaps in previous generation 6er was "just a 5er coupe". But not the case this time. It's much more close to 7er. Appearance & image wise. So, this generation of 6er is much less "overpriced" than previous generation ever was. It's also bigger ... so more length-per-money.

Development & production costs ... BMW Large platform shares almost everything. So the development & production costs are shared among all cars utilizing this platform. So, saying 6er development & production costs are clos(er) to 5er (than to 7er) is just wrong!

And reading your posts ... it seems like you don't like 6er not because of the price but because it's not special enough. So 6er's individuality-level-per-money is not good enough for you. But that's your personal issue, not some general one.

south · May 28, 2012

Betty Swollocks said:
That's not a relevant comparison because Audi don't offer a similar car to the R8 using the same engines/chassis/interior and sell it for GBP20,000 less, in the same way BMW do with the 5er/6er. It's the R8 or nothing at all.

I see, so overpriced without cheaper alternatives is OK, but overpriced with cheaper alternatives isn't. Now that makes a lot of sense to me...

Best regards,
south

Betty Swollocks · May 28, 2012

EnI said:
OK, perhaps in previous generation 6er was "just a 5er coupe". But not the case this time. It's much more close to 7er. Appearance & image wise.

That's EXACTLY what it is. "Image". You're paying your extra GBP 20,000 for the "image".

EnI said:
Development & production costs ... BMW Large platform shares almost everything. So the development & production costs are shared among all cars utilizing this platform. So, saying 6er development & production costs are clos(er) to 5er (than to 7er) is just wrong!

Where did I say this?

EnI said:
But that's your personal issue, not some general one.

Good grief, do we not assume that when somebody makes a post that it's their own PERSONAL view rather than a statement of fact? Or do we have to write "IMHO" now after every post we make?

south said:
I see, so overpriced without cheaper alternatives is OK, but overpriced with cheaper alternatives isn't. Now that makes a lot of sense to me...

Of course it does. If I walk into an Audi showroom to buy a two seat, mid-engined coupe with a V10 engine I've got a choice of one (I wouldn't walk into a BMW showroom for obvious reasons

)

You're not making similar comparisons when you brought the R8 into it South. The fact is Audi don't make a very similar car to the R8 which is also a two seat mid-engined sports car with exactly the same V10 engine as the R8, using the same modular chassis, but with a slightly different interior, and slightly higher roofline, and looking a little less sporty, and selling it for tens of thousands of Pounds less. If they did then I would say the R8 V10 is overpriced, yes.

Now, I walk into a BMW showroom for a four-door, high performance diesel......

Me: I want to buy a twin-turbo diesel please.
BMW Salesman: OK, we have a 535d with 313hp for sale. That will be GBP 44,395 please.
Me: Hang on a second, what's that car over there? It has less interior space and is not as practical, but it looks better than the 535d. I'm willing to compromise on space a little if it looks that good. How much is it?
BMW Salesman: Oh, that's the 640d Gran Coupe, and that will be GBP 63,000 please.
Me: Er, OK. That's nearly GBP 20,000 more than the 535d and yet it offers no obvious advantages other than it looks sexier. In fact, it's a bit compromised on space compared to the 535d.
BMW Salesman: Yes Sir, but that is a 640d. See? 640d.
Me: Oh right, so it has a different engine to the 535d?
BMW Salesman: Er....no.
Me: OK, but it must have more power then?
BMW Salesman: Er....no.
Me: OK, so I can see it's a better looking car and it looks sexy, but where does my extra GBP 20,000 go?
BMW Salesman: Not sure.
Me: OK, I'll have a 535d and I'll spend the GBP 20,000 on a fun hot hatch or a track car.
BMW Salesman: Wise choice sir.

south · May 28, 2012

Betty Swollocks said:
You're not making similar comparisons when you brought the R8 into it South.

Funny conversation you made up, and I mean it.

Your point was that any car is overpriced if "the production costs are not reflected in the selling price." I gave you another example, your car, where production costs aren't reflecting the selling price either. Yet you see no problem in that. This just goes to show that the image of the R8 is worth to you spending more while the image of the 6 isn't. It's easy as that.

Best regards,
south

Deckhook · May 28, 2012

^Wrong South, the R8 is a bargain since the perception is that its basically a Lamborghini wearing an Audi badge. It's engine is from the Lambo as is the gearbox, drivetrain and chassis though the later has been pulled and stretched to make it more accommodating.

Betty's rather fun story is a fair reflection of how that conversation would go. Stating that this time round the 6er is closer to the 7 than the 5 may or may not be true but this isn't the perception of even well informed members never mind the dimwitted general public and BMW are doing nothing to address this opinion so I very much doubt this model will fare any better than the model it replaced residual wise.

Defending BMW's pricing policy till you're blue in the face will not change the opinion of many that they will be paying through the nose for it looks when the competition on the face of it offer similar for a hell of a lot less expense.

south · May 28, 2012

Deckhook said:
^Wrong South, the R8 is a bargain since the perception is that its basically a Lamborghini wearing an Audi badge. It's engine is from the Lambo as is the gearbox, drivetrain and chassis though the later has been pulled and stretched to make it more accommodating.

The keyword here is 'perception' which doesn't reflect Audi's costs to build one which was -- again -- Betty's point.

Best regards,
south

Deckhook · May 28, 2012

^In reflection of the type of car it is, i.e. supercar that shares tons with a car costing £50k more then it is value for money. The perception is that it's even better value than it really is instead of the opposite which is the case with the 6er.

martinbo · May 28, 2012

Ok, I could easily spin this the other way; why would anyone buy a hellish expensive Lambo Gallardo when you can get nearly as much for much less? The question is rhetorical - a reply is unnecessary as the argument is already circular: you cannot argue that Audi is justifiable in making a rude profit margin on an R8 but BMW isn't because they happen to offer a volume seller for less - the market value of an item will be determined by what the market is prepared to bear.

Consumer X will view the 6er GC as over-priced when compared with a similarly kitted 5er. They will not perceive value.
Consumer Y will view the 6er GC as fair value over the 5er purely because of its greater exclusivity that separates it from the more common 5er. They will perceive value - even if they're smart enough to realise that under-the-skin it's essentially close to the much cheaper car. This isn't rocket science; it's a fundamental tenet of a capitalist economy: some people will pay more for an item that's rarer and more exclusive purely because the wherewithal at their disposal enables them to.

This is the primary concept at hand that is unarguable in a free market economy.

The secondary concept is very hard to put raw data toward simply because us laymen just don't have access to BMW's complete PLM financial models for the 5er, 6er and 7er families. Certainly, in spite of the obvious similarities, economies of scale need to appreciated when comparing the overall product cost of a volume-selling 5er vs. a lower volume 6er.

Betty Swollocks · May 28, 2012

south said:
Funny conversation you made up, and I mean it.

Thank you.

south said:
Your point was that any car is overpriced if "the production costs are not reflected in the selling price."

Yeah, fair enough, I can see why the conversation progressed the way it did after I wrote that. It's my fault for not being clear enough.

What I was meaning (although I didn't say it), is "compared to other vehicles sharing a large proportion of parts", so in this case the 5er and 6er. The fact that the 6er is being sold for a much higher price than the 5er when production costs are similar (I accept the 6er probably costs slightly more to build due to there being SOME unqiue parts and it being built in smaller numbers), indicates there is a certain amount of "creaming" going on of profits. I'm not blaming BMW for doing that, I hasten to add. But the presence of the 5er makes it a bit more blatant. If the 6 Series was a stand alone model then I don't think it would be as obvious.

With regards the R8, 50% of the car could be profit, but without an easy yardstick by which to measure it to (i.e. a cheaper car with similar chassis/engine), then it doesn't come across as "profiteering".

What doesn't help the matter is that Audi offer an A7 at a much closer price to the A6, and Mercedes-Benz offer a CLS at a much closer price to the E-Class. BMW, however, are pricing the 6er GC as a four-door coupe of the 7 Series, when I think the market mainly sees it as a four-door coupe of the 5 Series. Just IMHO though.

EnI · May 28, 2012

6er is BMWs top sports car (especially the M6). Audi has R8. MB has SL, CL, SLS ... And being that it's priced appropriately. It's certainly not a "coupe version of 5er". 6er has always been a more exclusive models & series. Incl. the first E9 & E26 generations. The series has a heritage. And a proper positioning.

And mind 4er & 2er are coming. 2er will become entry BMW RWD Series with the next 1er going FWD in the next generation. Therefore next 2er will be priced close to 3er, and consequently next 4er will be priced closer to 5er. While 6er is already positioned close to 7er. And a future 8er will be priced way above 7er.

And with FWD sub-1er coming, there will be room for cheaper FWD BMW coupe & cabrio/roadster as well. Being priced close to FWD 1er hatch. So they could either opt for sub-1er based coupe, or make FWD 3dr 1er hatch much more coupeish.