BMW 335i; a Audi S4 opponent?

[Zafiro]

335i is clearly underpowered compared to S4, at least if we compare horsepowers but not torque.

S4 vs 335
344 hp / 306 hp
410 nm@ 3500/min vs 400 nm@ 1300-5000/min
Price (Germany) 53.900 euro / 41.800 euro

Nordschleife: 8.29 min (Avant) - 335i in X.XX min (answer next issue sportauto)
Hockenheim: 1.18,1 min (Sedan) - 335i in X.XX,X min (answer next issue sportauto)

This is acceleration numbers for S4 from german carmags
sportauto 3/2003
0 - 100 km/h 5,4 s
0 - 200 km/h 19,9 s
ams 1/2003
0 - 100 km/h 5,7 s
0 - 200 km/h 21,0 s


So far 335i has only been tested one time. This is the time:
0-100 km/h in 5,3 sec
0-160 km/h in 11,9 sec
0-200 km/h in 18,7 sec

As you can see 335i is quicker than S4. How good the handling is compared to S4 we will know September 15.

Do you think 335i worthy enough to be compared with S4?
Do you consider 335i to be a S4 opponent?
Why pay the extra cash to get a S4 instead of a 335i?
What do you think about 335i vs S4?

 

[LaArtist]

if the 335 is quicker than the S4 Audi should be ashamed..

 

[wltsm]

if the 335 is quicker than the S4 Audi should be ashamed..

Considering the 335i, at the moment is a coupe, the S4 is more heavy! It will be interesting to see how a 335i sedan does!

For me, on cost terms I'd go for the 335i, but if cost didn't matter, I'd go for the S4, because it has 4WD, meaning it would be faster in the wet, and has a V8!

 

[Zafiro]

Considering the 335i, at the moment is a coupe, the S4 is more heavy! It will be interesting to see how a 335i sedan does!

the Sedan isnt much heavier than the Coupe

BMw claim that E90 is 0.1 sec slower than E92 up to 100km/h. Not a biggie.

 

[Yperion]

First of all 335i proves how wrong BMW was all those years with not using turbocharged engines (apart from diesels that is). A nicely executed turbo 6 cyl. can offer better performance than a NA V8.
Apart from that , the new S5 (which will come around 2008 i hope) will use a slightly retuned RS4 engine with around 390-400 hp and then the gap with 335i will open again.

 

[Michael]

Hmm this is very odd to compare the 335i to the S4, yet it seems about right.

We all know that BMW does not have a quattro system that Audi that weighs a lot, also it will not deliver power instantly as the tranny on the 335i. I think this should be expected. Without reading the thing, I assumed that the 335i would have about the same 0-60 time as the S4. The S4 is a great car, dont' get me wrong, but it is not tuned like the RS4 for example which delivers quick power on demand and without hesitation. The S4 is heavy and even though it may not be that much heavier it is pretty heaver for a car that has to manage an awd system that is pretty hefty itself.

I think the 335i is going to be a great car, but it is a new car. New cars are always more powerful. The next generation S4 should definitely out do the 335i. Things are only getting better

 

[Zafiro]

First of all 335i proves how wrong BMW was all those years with not using turbocharged engines (apart from diesels that is). A nicely executed turbo 6 cyl. can offer better performance than a NA V8.

wrong and wrong, they have used turbos before. Reason why it took so long to use it again is that the Turbo didnt work the way BMW wanted to. Now finally they succeed to build turbos exact the way they want.

 

[Snake Vargas]

Well, remember the other thread:
http://www.germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=5650

That dyno test of the 335i seems to suggest it's putting out something more like 350hp and 350lb-ft (around 490Nm). Seems plausible to me and would go a way towards explaining why it's faster than the S4.

 

[Zafiro]

heaver for a car that has to manage an awd system that is pretty hefty itself.

I think the 335i is going to be a great car, but it is a new car. New cars are always more powerful. The next generation S4 should definitely out do the 335i. Things are only getting better

the 335i engine is easy to tune so. So if the gap become to big they can tune it but not to close to the next M3 engine though. BMw dont want to a create a conflict between 335i and M3.
I wonder when we see the 335is with 330hp that Eni talked about

 

[Michael]

the 335i engine is easy to tune so. So if the gap become to big they can tune it but not to close to the next M3 engine though. BMw dont want to a create a conflict between 335i and M3.
I wonder when we see the 335is with 330hp that Eni talked about

That may be a conflict. What is the M3 going to be rated at? We all know that the previous S4 that was a twin turbo can out do the current S4 and maybe even the RS4 if tuned correctly. So, if BMW really wants to tune the 335i then the M3 should divert from tradition of hih reving naturally aspirated engines and make a turbo for the car. It just doesn't make sense for BMW to make a 330hp 335i. It is to close for comfort and people will just opt to but that over the M3 if they know they can tune it and make it better. The M3 will have about 440hp in order to justify it being an M3 IMO, if the 335i gets 330hp like apparently Enilab said. I don't understand why BMW would gap the cars that close. Also, how much is the 335i going to cost? If the cost of the car is goig to be rather close to the M3, then wouldn't someone opt for the M3? It goes hand in hand and it goes both way. Truthfully the 335i should stay where it is.

 

[EnI]

335si with 333HP (245kW) is to come in 2007. Could it be it will be a limited edition only - like 320si ...

Also mind that M3 will be more expensive than the current M3. I'm also eager to see the final (by marketing decided) output of new M V8.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Hey Just_Me, where did you get the Hockenheim time of 1.18.1 for the Audi S4 sedan? From your Hockenheim thread, I only see the Audi S4 Avant being tested and getting a time of 1.19.1.

But back on topic.....I think a 335i equipped with BMW sport or M suspension has a high chance of beating the S4 (both in a drag race and on a twisty track).

 

[Zafiro]

Hey Just_Me, where did you get the Hockenheim time of 1.18.1 for the Audi S4 sedan? From your Hockenheim thread, I only see the Audi S4 Avant being tested and getting a time of 1.19.1.

Im going home from work now so give me 2 hours and I will look it up.

 

[Michael]

335si with 333HP (245kW) is to come in 2007. Could it be it will be a limited edition only - like 320si ...

Also mind that M3 will be more expensive than the current M3. I'm also eager to see the final (by marketing decided) output of new M V8.

Why does marketting decide such a thing? Sales maybe? HP sells cars and torque wins races

 

[wltsm]

335si with 333HP (245kW) is to come in 2007.

Didn't know that, sounds good though, and would definately give the S4 a run for its money with that extra power!

A quick question, is this new engine ever going to find its way into other cars in the BMW range such as the 5er, X5 and X3?

 

[EnI]

A quick question, is this new engine ever going to find its way into other cars in the BMW range such as the 5er, X5 and X3?

N54 is coming to other models very soon ...


Why marketing is deciding HP output numbers? Taxation in some markets, competition figures, avoiding overlaping with other line-up engines, configuring engine line-up right, pricing etc.

 

[martinbo]

The massive upswing in the successful application of turbocharging in other marques paved the way for BMW to make use of this form of induction as a viable solution to a rather big problem that BMW faced. Basically, turbocharging - and consumers' willing acceptance thereof presently - rescued a situation that BMW otherwise would not have been able to solve going the naturally aspirated route.

Don't think for a minute that BMW have singlehandedly revolutionised the way that turbocharging is employed in the modern petrol engine. The solution is nothing extraordinary from an engineering perspective; it's simply two light pressure turbos bolted to an already powerful 3 litre six cylinder engine. Yes, but what about the lack of turbo lag you'll ask? I'll counter that by saying that the low inertia turbo installation is profiled for low-down boost and seamless power delivery but is hardly a paragon of top end power delivery for an engine of such specification. It could have been much, much more, at the expense of that famed straight six linear power delivery. Light pressure turbocharging has been around for almost 8 years in its current and successful state.

BMW faced a marketing dilemma and turbocharging was the obvious solution.
The problem of course (for all of my detractors who are currently going "who is this d!@k&e#d?" ) is the Newton metre per litre output of engines that ingest air at ambient atmospheric pressure. As such, they lack the volumetric efficiency to consistently produce more than 105 Nm per litre without employing some hectically sophisticated engine management systems (e.g. M5's S85 system).

So what were BMW to do? Increase the displacement of the straight six? Not an option apparently as this would detract from the optimal bore and stroke characteristics of the sixer and make it longer and heavier as a consequence. Sure there's the option of a V8 but surely that's less efficient than a turbo'd six? Bingo. Welcome to the turbocharged era for mainstream BMWs. Most definitely unchartered territory for BMW, no question. Turbo'd 2002s don't count...

But back to the matter at hand (after all of that) yes, I most certainly believe that the 335i (especially in Sedan and Touring guises) is a perfect opponent to the more expensive S4 range. After all, I did say it in this thread

BMW has, quite suddenly, moved the goal posts again. This is one of the reasons that they're so successful and profitable.

 

[Zafiro]

dont forget there was a 7er in the 80s with a turbo engine. Made by BMW. 2002 isnt the only turbo engine.
Also they were competing in Formula 1 with turbo engines in the 80's. BMW didnt get a bright idea just like that. Turbo is back and here to stay.

 

[Zafiro]

Hey Just_Me, where did you get the Hockenheim time of 1.18.1 for the Audi S4 sedan? From your Hockenheim thread, I only see the Audi S4 Avant being tested and getting a time of 1.19.1.

From issue 3/2003 S4 with a V8 tested, Sedan version. Time 1.18.1 min. I better update the list then
Audi S4 Avant was tested in issue 11/2003. Time 1.19,1 min. 0-100km/h in 5.6 sec and 0-200km/h in 21.1 sec.

 

[Michael]

dont forget there was a 7er in the 80s with a turbo engine. Made by BMW. 2002 isnt the only turbo engine.
Also they were competing in Formula 1 with turbo engines in the 80's. BMW didnt get a bright idea just like that. Turbo is back and here to stay.

Turbo is back and here to stay? Really? I highly doubt it. Just because BMW is introducing a turbo in one of their mainstream cars does not mean that turbo will be seen in the BMW line up from now on. For all we know they may go back and forth between forced induction and NA.